The Whisper/gunner/fcs combo used to be so great on Whisper. You would take evade as your action and then be pretty certain to get a focus token with Whisper´s ability since you had the gunner backup. These days every list with Whisper seems to combo with Agent Kallus (or just the basic 39 pt version).

Is Kallus simply so much better?

It's cheaper and also works on defence.

Let me take a moment to laugh hysterically.

If people are taking Kallus on a Phantom it's because the points are needed elsewhere. Kallus is not better than Gunner on a Phantom, especially Whisper. I mean, Echo sure yeah okay. Gunner isn't so important on Echo, but Whisper without Gunner is like cooking rice without a pot and lid. Yeah, you can do it but I'm guessing you eat a lot of crunchy rice...

Gunner, as I have said many times before, is essential on Whisper because her pilot ability requires a hit. FCS and Gunner will very rarely fail to net you a hit with 4 dice. It's almost stupidly improbable. What is Kallus doing for you? Giving you a bonus against one ship, when that ship is vaped, goodbye Kallus. Gunner is always there, like a good neighbor or a dependable farm insurance policy. You can always count on Gunner to almost guarantee dependable red dice. Kallus needs a focus result as well so... Kallus is simply not better than Gunner on offense. But Kallus gives you the same ability on defense as well you say? Again only against one ship and requiring a focus result. Hardly the kind of policy you'd trust a generations old family farm to now is it? But Gunner does nothing on defense! Fiddlesticks young man. Fiddlesticks. Gunner allows the best kind of action economy a non-PTLer can get and that's freedom of choice. Barrel roll out of arc, it's much easier to do in a Phantom thanks to the decloak! Take the evade and token stack, it's still a viable defense and still very likely to happen, thanks to Gunner. Or better yet, take a focus action if you think you can clear your target and not get shot at in return.

There is no reason to take Kallus over Gunner on Whisper except for points cost. Is Kallus better than the other crew options on Whisper? Yes, of course. That's why you see Kallus there more frequently. Whisper is seldom allowed to have free reign over the squad points anymore since her squadmates' often require certain things to survive. Before you could run a 44 point Whisper and not bat an eye, but now other equally able pilots are jockeying for upgrades and so Kallus is used as a compromise.

For its cost? Yes, Kallus is better value than Gunner.

Gunner itself is more powerful than Kallus on offense only. Two things have changed that made Gunner less popular than it was before the Phantom nerf. First, Phantoms are much more vulnerable. Before the nerf, only turrets were a threat. Nowadays, that 44-pt is a very risky investment especially when you have no defensive upgrades.

Second, is Palpatine. With Emp, Kallus, evade token, and potentially a focus; you can now really tank up to Soontir-esque levels. Similarly, on offense, you can produce 4 hits at will as long as you don't roll 2 blanks following a TL reroll. X-wing is all about modifiers when it comes to aces, and Kallus grants you LW like bonuses without the range restriction.

I must admit, that if I had a choice regardless of point cost, Gunner would be always my first pick. Gunner increases the odds of acquiring a defensive focus token more than Kallus. Also, protects your phantom from some terrible rolls, allows to breach some Agi 3+ aces' defences and works on everyone, not only on one chosen ship.

On the other hand, it makes him 3 pts more expensive, which in some lists will matter a lot. And Kallus helps him a bit when facing some PS 10+ ace, where he needs every help he can get.

So it's mainly those 3 "free" poins, which allow you to put some nasty ace beside him.

As much as i like gunner i prefer rebel captive on whisper. Discourages aces (who can outfly phantoms) from firing at me. Mainly cause if you used ptl you don't want the extra stress. But this is my preference. It all depends if you want more offense or control. Both have their perks.

I run tactician on Whisper.

Gunner works on defense in that it synergizes with Whisper's ability. Anyone thinking Kallus is better because he works on Defense is missing the point. There's also the adage about the best defensing being a good offense... which still true in this instance. And I'd much rather have a better shot at getting her ability to trigger, especially if Kallus isn't looking at the enemy who happens to be shooting at you...

Gunner is better, unless you need the points.

In most lists featuring Whisper, points are an extremely limited resource. Buzzsaw Whisper, "Standard" OL, and a Palp Shuttle gets you to 99 pts. Whisper and any fully-kitted Decimator tend to put you over 100, so you have to adjust down, generally on Whisper.

I run tactician on Whisper.

Intel Agent, usually, for me. Or nothing, occasionally. Gunner makes her WAY too big a target.

I run tactician on Whisper.

Intel Agent, usually, for me. Or nothing, occasionally. Gunner makes her WAY too big a target.

I prefer folks try and hit Whisper. If she isn't able to completely dodge out of their arc, via being unpredictable, she's going to have a healthy token setup to protect herself (and, therefore, the rest of my list).

I really like Intelligence Agent on Echo. It requires you to do a bit of 4th dimensional thinking in that you need to choose a maneuver that will be functional whether you decloak or not. But the Intelligence Agent is great for deciding if you actually want to decloak or not, and then helps you decide where to decloak.

I think the argument for Kallus comes down to the presence of PS10 stuff (or 9 with initiative). Against one of those ships, Kallus let's you Evade and get Focus on your greens to maximize defense. With Gunner, you don't get the defensive Focus until after you shoot.

I think the argument for Kallus comes down to the presence of PS10 stuff (or 9 with initiative). Against one of those ships, Kallus let's you Evade and get Focus on your greens to maximize defense. With Gunner, you don't get the defensive Focus until after you shoot.

100% a valuable consideration, however, in the context of the current meta, there is only one list that religiously features a PS9 ship. Most others are 8 or below.

There are also lists where Kallus is almost completely ineffective, and they're a bit more present in the current meta (crack swarms, specifically).

Of course, this gets into a "location specific" discussion, as players around here rarely bother with high PS ships atm (besides Dengar). Elsewhere, I imagine Fel is still around, and maybe even Vader, considering TLTs have backed off a bit.

I disagree. Gunner is rarely a good choice. I play Whisper a lot and there are very rare situations where you don't hit a ship with 4-5 dice and preferably FCS.

Gunner is in my opinion pure overdose for strong attack ship.

Kallus can be completely useless in a game, but in others he wins the whole game for you (similar to Rebel Captive).

I run tactician on Whisper.

Intel Agent, usually, for me. Or nothing, occasionally. Gunner makes her WAY too big a target.

I prefer folks try and hit Whisper. If she isn't able to completely dodge out of their arc, via being unpredictable, she's going to have a healthy token setup to protect herself (and, therefore, the rest of my list).

She is not that unpredictable as the de-cloaks are usually easy to read, and she comes with only 2 shield, 2 hull.

Let me put it simple: That Gunner crew would fit in a mynock special and all things other than gunner/kallus would be equal then the Kallus Whisper list still would win. Having gunner and getting your focus token after you shot does not help you if the opposing list is 3 points cheaper has ps9 as well and shoots first.

2 AGI with an Evade OR Focus token is not an impressive token stack. Kallus Whisper gets at least Kallus even when the enemy brings something that shoots first and with saving 3 points you have a better chance of actually shooting first and activating all your defensive abilities before someone blows you up.

I run tactician on Whisper.

Intel Agent, usually, for me. Or nothing, occasionally. Gunner makes her WAY too big a target.

I prefer folks try and hit Whisper. If she isn't able to completely dodge out of their arc, via being unpredictable, she's going to have a healthy token setup to protect herself (and, therefore, the rest of my list).

She is not that unpredictable as the de-cloaks are usually easy to read, and she comes with only 2 shield, 2 hull.

Let me put it simple: That Gunner crew would fit in a mynock special and all things other than gunner/kallus would be equal then the Kallus Whisper list still would win. Having gunner and getting your focus token after you shot does not help you if the opposing list is 3 points cheaper has ps9 as well and shoots first.

2 AGI with an Evade OR Focus token is not an impressive token stack. Kallus Whisper gets at least Kallus even when the enemy brings something that shoots first and with saving 3 points you have a better chance of actually shooting first and activating all your defensive abilities before someone blows you up.

But then you should be arc dodging the opposing pilots not trying to stack tokens. Move first shoot first... decloak first too. Plus ACD only lets you cloak after you attack, so if I'm shooting last, you can bet I'll be trying to minimize your shots. Kallus isn't going to do much on 2 dice either, plus once the target is gone, then what do you have?

I get that Kallus is good and he works, but let's not forget why we were taking Gunner in the first place here. Kallus isn't superseding anyone.

I run tactician on Whisper.

Intel Agent, usually, for me. Or nothing, occasionally. Gunner makes her WAY too big a target.

I prefer folks try and hit Whisper. If she isn't able to completely dodge out of their arc, via being unpredictable, she's going to have a healthy token setup to protect herself (and, therefore, the rest of my list).

She is not that unpredictable as the de-cloaks are usually easy to read, and she comes with only 2 shield, 2 hull.

Let me put it simple: That Gunner crew would fit in a mynock special and all things other than gunner/kallus would be equal then the Kallus Whisper list still would win. Having gunner and getting your focus token after you shot does not help you if the opposing list is 3 points cheaper has ps9 as well and shoots first.

2 AGI with an Evade OR Focus token is not an impressive token stack. Kallus Whisper gets at least Kallus even when the enemy brings something that shoots first and with saving 3 points you have a better chance of actually shooting first and activating all your defensive abilities before someone blows you up.

You are missing the point.

You don't take Gunner because you are afraid of seeing an opposing Whisper with kallus (how often does that even happen????).

You take Gunner because you are trying to counter the meta.

Gunner is EXCELLENT against high agility targets that are hard to hit. Like Soontir, inquisitor or even Dengar (although to be fair, any Whisper build is not great against Dengar).

So if you are not seeing a lot of palp aces, then sure, stick with Kallus. It certainly will help in a few matchups. But being able to convert 1 eyeball to a hit (or even an evade on defense) is not good enough to defeat Soontir. You want to punch through his defenses, you NEED gunner + FCS.

Its a 5 point upgrade that gives you a winning chance in an otherwise very difficult matchup. That's a good a reason as any to take it.

Now if you are not seeing a lot of palp aces, then sure, Kallus does just fine in quite a few matchups.

Rebel Captive is another good one to deal with Soontir (and other Whispers). In fact, its one of the reasons VI Vader cropped up (to protect Soontir from double stress).

Enjoy your Kallus, by all means. I'll be sitting on the side, laughing uproariously, when you fail to hit with Whisper's high attack.

I've had gunner trigger relatively often. I've had matches where it's mostly wasted (especially against VCX/Deci). But I've also rolled 4 blanks more than once, and Gunner saved my bacon.

Kallus, mind, doesn't even help on a blank... Which is unfortunate.

And, if you're flying Whisper predictably, that's your fault. When you see that your enemy has a chance to outmaneuver you, you should be doing non-ideal movement to throw them off -- this isn't unique to Whisper. Gotta do the same thing with any ship facing a higher PS enemy, Whisper just has more tools to make it work.

And, if you're flying Whisper predictably, that's your fault. When you see that your enemy has a chance to outmaneuver you, you should be doing non-ideal movement to throw them off -- this isn't unique to Whisper. Gotta do the same thing with any ship facing a higher PS enemy, Whisper just has more tools to make it work.

^That (mostly). I don't agree with the snipped out Gunner sentiment (which is why I snipped it) but I'm comfortable enough with Whisper's decloak to know what my opponent expects me to do, so I do something else in reaction to that. Whisper is a powerful ace, but a fragile ace. As with Fel, Jax, et al, you should always be ready to disengage and bug out rather than put yourself in a sub-optimal situation. If you aren't fighting on your own terms, then you need to stop flying Phantoms.

Good discussion, and I tend to agree with those stating Gunner is an over investment. Whisper should - with FCS - be able to hit hard.

I prefer Rebel Captive or Tactician as it gives the other player pause.

I also recall flying a LGS league match - it was down to my Soontir vs the opponents Whisper with Tactician. The dog fight between these two went on for 20 mintues, but then he double stressed my Soontir and it was over. I was trying to stay R1 or R3 but he positioned well. Gaining the extra stress was all it took.

It's also why I feel Rebel Captive is good - makes the enemy think twice.

And as previously mentioned, albeit briefly, Phantoms can whiff, even with FCS up. When that happens it's very very sad making and afterwards, that ship you were going to nuke, it gets to shoot back and well... that's when you find out that four green dice can do the same thing and suddenly Whisper has no tokens and a shield gone.

It's like those veggie drink commercials...

... Coulda had a Gunner! :smacks forehead:

Gunner is a powerful ability, but it is actually overpriced nowadays. It easily could be 4 points, or 3 if you're okay with slight power creep.

I prefer Rebel Captive on Whisper. Kallus is a fine choice too. Intel Agent is the budget option. Gotta save points for the absolutely necessary initiative bid.

Gunner is a powerful ability, but it is actually overpriced nowadays. It easily could be 4 points, or 3 if you're okay with slight power creep.

I disagree with this. The gunner ability, in particular on Whisper, is extremely powerful. In most instances you are not going to put a gunner on a 2-attack dice ship, so the damage output you will get from the activation of gunnder is going to be quite significant. WHich is why I believe the gunner to be quite reasonably priced.

On Whisper the gunner effect is even more powerful as it is also going to activate a defensive ability, and therefor serves two purposes:

1. To push damage through (which if coupled with FCS should be "almost a given".

2. To ensure a vital focus token for defense (which often means you would have both an evade and a focus).

I think that the some of the above posts stating that the reason Gunner is being pushed out in favor of Kallus (or other crew upgrades) is squad building. With Whisper you will often want Palp as well meaning that it is at least 29points (OGP) or 48points (Patrol Leader), but often if it's decimator Oicunn at 50points, leaving very few points for good wingmen for the Buzzsaw Whisper.