Love Madine so far. Really makes the Liberty nimble.
There are two things I have noticed however. First, MC30s definitely took a hit from the introduction of the Interdictor, to the point where I'm not sure I'll be comfortable bringing more than one (even that will have to be the Admonition). Second, while the Liberty is OK with minimal upgrades, in order for it to get to ISD levels of killing stuff, it needs to be a point sink.
How is everyone finding the Liberty? The 2 shields on the side are really starting to bother me.. too many things in the game are fast enough to put consistent fire down onto side hulls.
The guys running these were doing well by building them slippery. Basically Engine Techs and or Madine, and Nav Commands.
But I think the match-ups are going to start getting like AllWingsStandingBy commenting. Sometimes you're going to get really advantageous games and others will be an uphill battle the whole way.
Yea, unfortunately I think this will be true. X-Wing has very much devolved into something similar. With so many options in X-Wings now, lists can be pretty divergent and there's a pretty influential Rock-Paper-Scissors sort of dynamic, where some games are largely determined when lists are revealed.
Armada has always had a something like this (e.g. back in Wave 2: No Fighters > Dogfighters > Bombers > No Fighters). This will become a greater factor in Armada with things like the Interdictor, which nerfs MC30s/Demolishers hard but has a much more minimal impact in a game against Triple Victory Super Carriers.
The MC30 is my favorite ship, but I'm sad I can no longer run it past Wave 4, because there is always the chance that I might play against an Interdictor kitted out to keep a ship's speed at 0. You can't afford to waste 90 points on a ship that might not get to roll any dice in a certain match-up...
This weekend was an epic one for me due to my wife giving me a pass. I played 9 games across Friday-Sun and faced a variety of fleets and opponents. Consistently, the same thing kept coming up; that things will turn very Rocks-Paper-Scissors. For example, the game that spurred this thread was a twin Interdictor w VSD vs my Cracken list. I got crushed. Again and again this played out, lists can definitely be competitive, but chances are you're going to run into something that you just aren't set up to handle.
My take away, so far, is that this is healthy. I think tournaments are going to be more competitive as a result. Demo lists are going to struggle with Interdictors, but will be fine against others.... And so on.
I might spend time trying to build an all-comers, but I think this will just get more and more difficult, and be ultimately pointless. For now I'm going to focus on a couple of basic list designs and just try to get really proficient with them.
From my point of view, a Rock-Paper-Scissors metagame is the opposite of being healthy for a tournament. Ultimately, the winner should not be determined by the luck of the draw (having good match-ups or not) or the list he brought, but by the skills he have playing the game. Bad match-up will happen, but you should always be able to at least handle it with skills. There is nothing worst in a game than having lost before it even began; that's the opposite of a balanced game.
I agree with your concept here, in that if it ever becomes a completely Rock-Paper-Scissor list situation then that would be bad for the game. But honestly, I'm not that worried about it. It's fine for there to be checks/counters to different fleet elements. But you can always still win. I beat a six ship Rieekan Swarm with a 5 ship DeMSU at regionals. That list should have hard countered me, right? But I was, quite frankly, the better admiral and so I won. (The fellow I played was super awesome at being a people though, which is by far the more important skill.) That's one quick example, but I'm sure we've all won games where we looked across the table at the onset and said "Well...<Insert favorite four letter word here>". Just as I'm sure we've all looked across the table at a list, snickered to ourselves, and then found ourselves humbled 2 hours later. There is such a high skill cap in this game, and I think sometimes that gets lost when we sit here and theory-craft on the forums, because when we do we have to assume equal skill on both sides of the table. In practice though, even when you have two players who are relatively equal in skill, one might be having an off day, or one might catch a spark of real inspiration and pull a miracle out of his aft.
Don't get me wrong, I never said that Armada was like that or that I believed it was going this way. I was only replying against the notion that a rock-paper-scissors system makes healthy game.
I do believe that Armada is currently balanced and that your victory is more based on your skills than on the fleet you bring.
Ah. I appear to have inferred an intent that wasn't there. My mistake. Carry on.
It was a variant of Mothma's Angels ©.
Do tell more. . .
I mostly sat out wave 2, so this is old news to everyone, but: holy god Victories are squishy now. Konstantine is hilarious, yes, but an Interdictor, two Victories with the barest of bones (Gunnery, XI7) and suddenly you're almost out of points and Targeting Scrambler just isn't enough to keep the Vics alive, whether the attacker is an ISD or a Gladiator. No ECM and one brace means an accuracy result is horrific, and there will be an accuracy result.
On the other side of the table, the durability of an ISD backed by a repairing Interdictor is, uh. Impressive. I may have to take a look at that.
I mostly sat out wave 2, so this is old news to everyone, but: holy god Victories are squishy now. Konstantine is hilarious, yes, but an Interdictor, two Victories with the barest of bones (Gunnery, XI7) and suddenly you're almost out of points and Targeting Scrambler just isn't enough to keep the Vics alive, whether the attacker is an ISD or a Gladiator. No ECM and one brace means an accuracy result is horrific, and there will be an accuracy result.
On the other side of the table, the durability of an ISD backed by a repairing Interdictor is, uh. Impressive. I may have to take a look at that.
Edited by RogueCommanderDo tell more. . .It was a variant of Mothma's Angels ©.
Just posted in Fleet Builds. It's Dodonna for me though. The points saved gives me more opportunity to choose first or second, and I'm wondering if my variant doesn't like going second more. But I'll leave that discussion for the other thread.
Do tell more. . .It was a variant of Mothma's Angels ©.
I do like Dodonna in the list. . . must test ideas. . . hmmmm
Love Madine so far. Really makes the Liberty nimble.
There are two things I have noticed however. First, MC30s definitely took a hit from the introduction of the Interdictor, to the point where I'm not sure I'll be comfortable bringing more than one (even that will have to be the Admonition). Second, while the Liberty is OK with minimal upgrades, in order for it to get to ISD levels of killing stuff, it needs to be a point sink.
I agree with this.
I was inspired to write tonight and wrote one specifically talking about the Liberty:
http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2016/08/armada-making-liberty-work.html
I mostly sat out wave 2, so this is old news to everyone, but: holy god Victories are squishy now. Konstantine is hilarious, yes, but an Interdictor, two Victories with the barest of bones (Gunnery, XI7) and suddenly you're almost out of points and Targeting Scrambler just isn't enough to keep the Vics alive, whether the attacker is an ISD or a Gladiator. No ECM and one brace means an accuracy result is horrific, and there will be an accuracy result.
On the other side of the table, the durability of an ISD backed by a repairing Interdictor is, uh. Impressive. I may have to take a look at that.
I was fiddling around with my list builder last night, and I'm thinking of going back to an ISD/VSD/GSD/Goz list. It's a take on something I had some success during Store Championship season. But honestly, I've come to the same conclusion. VSD's are just not enough oomph and are kinda weak. And if you take 2, it's suddenly 160ish points depending on loadout. If you try to squeeze a INT in, that's nearly 300 points.
I think INT's are something you need to build around or out not to run it for sure.
I do like Dodonna in the list. . . must test ideas. . . hmmmmJust posted in Fleet Builds. It's Dodonna for me though. The points saved gives me more opportunity to choose first or second, and I'm wondering if my variant doesn't like going second more. But I'll leave that discussion for the other thread.Do tell more. . .It was a variant of Mothma's Angels ©.
Dodonna the Versatile
Love Madine so far. Really makes the Liberty nimble.
There are two things I have noticed however. First, MC30s definitely took a hit from the introduction of the Interdictor, to the point where I'm not sure I'll be comfortable bringing more than one (even that will have to be the Admonition). Second, while the Liberty is OK with minimal upgrades, in order for it to get to ISD levels of killing stuff, it needs to be a point sink.
I agree with this.
I was inspired to write tonight and wrote one specifically talking about the Liberty:
http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2016/08/armada-making-liberty-work.html
Just read your blog, and that's also what I get from my first experience, especially against bombers.
To give it more survivability though, I like to take Lando. It can saves your ship from one big attack from a Demolisher or a medium Range ISD.
I got 2 games in this weekend in a store tourney, I was running what I hoped would be a sort of all comers list of Christmas Tree ISD, Demo, Gozanti and a moderate Fireball, but mostly I wanted to run things that were already relatively tried and true to see how two specific upgrades would effect them. The specific cards I wanted to test were Quad Turbos and Bomber Command. Quad turbos went on the ISD, and BC, obviously on the Gozanti. My two opponents were a Kitted ISD, Demo, and Interdoctor (no squads) and a kitted Interdictor, 2x VSD with Xi7 and GT, 2x firespray, 2x aggressor.
After the action, I had 1 win and 1 loss. Thoughts as follows:
-Interdoctor is way better than I thought it would be. You have to focus it down first, and because I underestimated it I split my fire and Interdocter (plus a couple truly horrific rolls sequentially from Demo and my ISD front arc) meant that I got tabled without even scoring points. Rough lesson to learn. The first interdictor had Wulf and Proj Experts, the second did not, and I believe that if the second interdictor was using the same upgrades as the first I would have lost that game.
-I had too much faith in Scatter. Previously I rarely saw the blue dice variants of ships running around, it was all ISD-1's and the like. Yesterday blue dice were EVERYWHERE. ECM's stock rose a ton, but the fragile Gozantis got double accuracied in both games to die turn 3, limiting the effect of BCC.
-Speaking of BCC, since I was running Firesprays which already have pretty consistent damage, BCC wasn't a huge help. However, I didn't score a crit from them in any of my games, and if my BCC's had lasted a little longer I would have liked to fish for some crits. Unfortunately they didn't. That said, if I had been leaning on Tie Bombers and THEN the Gozantis got fried, losing my squad command, I would have been in much worse shape. So taking the safe option did pay off for these learning games.
-QTC was a disappointment. I ran it without H9's obviously, since an ISD can't pull the Liberty shenanigans, but I was hoping with leading shots, concentrate fire, and Wulf-ing that conc fire token, I would reliably be able to get at least *1* red Acc. I was wrong. I rolled two red accuracies through both games, and just about any upgrade in the slot would have given me more effect. Was essentially 10 point window dressing. Your mileage may vary, because those times I rolled red Acc it was INCREDIBLE, it's just super risky.
-Konstantine is not that scary. At least, not in the match I played against him (the double vic list). I was able to keep Demo out of range of two ships, and my ISD at speed 1, and he got used once during the match, on the last turn, when I was bringing demo in for his last attack run. But by then with engine techs it was too late to keep him out of range.
-Targeting Scramblers are insane. Interdictor + TS is even more insane. This got used every turn of both matches. So worth the points it is insane. Doesn't shut demo down, shuts everything down once things reach the "Scrum" stage, which is bound to happen in Imp vs Imp combat as a byproduct of flying right at each other with death triangles.
For now that is all I can think of, but it was a blast to play against Interdictors! Wave 4 is gonna be a hoot.
I played 3 games this weekend and all I have to say is that the liberty is not as great as I hoped it would be. I had been so used to ECM on my MC80 and AF that when the accuracies started getting thrown I just had to sit there and take it and if its to the sides your getting at least 2-3 hull damage. This was all against a ISD and Interdictor. I can say the gr-75s are the best thing now I can run a small squadron force and never worry about issuing squad commands to my bigger guns.
@Liberty
Hull advantage vs. a 8 HP ship makes it less likely to be successful in the brawl that happens between it and bigger ships.
-QTC was a disappointment. I ran it without H9's obviously, since an ISD can't pull the Liberty shenanigans, but I was hoping with leading shots, concentrate fire, and Wulf-ing that conc fire token, I would reliably be able to get at least *1* red Acc. I was wrong. I rolled two red accuracies through both games, and just about any upgrade in the slot would have given me more effect. Was essentially 10 point window dressing. Your mileage may vary, because those times I rolled red Acc it was INCREDIBLE, it's just super risky.
Whereas you found it to be a disappointment, I found it to be amazing. On the Liberty with H9s. Pretty reliably giving me 2-4 accuracy, and being great against flotillas. You also might have just had sh*tty luck though, I rolled way more than two accuracy naturally in my three games yesterday.
I do think you have to take it with H9s or sensor teams or something though.
I played 3 games this weekend and all I have to say is that the liberty is not as great as I hoped it would be. I had been so used to ECM on my MC80 and AF that when the accuracies started getting thrown I just had to sit there and take it and if its to the sides your getting at least 2-3 hull damage. This was all against a ISD and Interdictor. I can say the gr-75s are the best thing now I can run a small squadron force and never worry about issuing squad commands to my bigger guns.
Liberty is probably better overall against other Rebel lists. I think other large ships are the best counter to it, whereas it just eats small ships alive. It's a big glass cannon.
Also seriously, medical team, take it. It does wonders keeping you alive for one point. Also the title that gives you contain might be worth looking into.
That said, unlike the ISD I don't think speed 3 is a deathtrap for it. Take Madine and navigate every round, you'll be quite surprised how nimble you are. Keep your front arc pointed at the major damage dealers, and you should come out alright.
Just as a counter-point to all the MC30 doomsaying: I've played three games against Interdictors now with my 30/30/75/75/75/75/X-wing Dodonna list, and won all three. Not by much, but I did win.
Two were against IInGz lists and one was VVInGz. One was very heavy speed control, with Konnie, Tractors, G8, and G7. Two used the Int/TS combo. All three had ProjEx on the Int.
We played the other guy's Advanced Gunnery in all three.
Ironically, the heavy speed control list was the only one that I was able to get to the Interdictor in: I killed it and a Raider, trading for my objective MC30 for a 6-5 or 7-4.
The IInGz I popped the Gonzo early, then spent two turns whaling on the objective ISD before a total of four MC30 broadsides and ~5 BCC X-wing shots finally took it down. I traded a pair of GR75's and most of the bomber wing for that one, giving me a 7-4 (we had to call it on turn 5).
The VVInGz I traded my objective MC30 for both Vics for a 8-3. His fighter screen was peanuts so the X-wings put in some serious work in this one.
So, the Interdictor certainly tones the 30 down a bit, and as people become more proficient at using the Interdictor I expect to have more and more trouble against them, but the MC30 is not dead. The general strategy I've seen is to trail the Int very close behind the gunships to shield it while it pumps out shields and Target Scrambler support to the front line. From the MC30 side, you really need to work hard to temporally concentrate your fire on one ship. Any relenting means Interdictor refreshes those scramblers and pushes shields out again, neutering you for another whole round.
Most frustrating TS incident: I had the best shot I've ever had out of an MC30, max damage of 8+Dodonna APT into an ISD with no brace and no redirects, and it got scrambled down to 5 damage with no crits. 
-QTC was a disappointment. I ran it without H9's obviously, since an ISD can't pull the Liberty shenanigans, but I was hoping with leading shots, concentrate fire, and Wulf-ing that conc fire token, I would reliably be able to get at least *1* red Acc. I was wrong. I rolled two red accuracies through both games, and just about any upgrade in the slot would have given me more effect. Was essentially 10 point window dressing. Your mileage may vary, because those times I rolled red Acc it was INCREDIBLE, it's just super risky.
Whereas you found it to be a disappointment, I found it to be amazing. On the Liberty with H9s. Pretty reliably giving me 2-4 accuracy, and being great against flotillas. You also might have just had sh*tty luck though, I rolled way more than two accuracy naturally in my three games yesterday.
I do think you have to take it with H9s or sensor teams or something though.
First off, I was not testing it with H9's and specifically said that for rebels running it with H9's is going to be a different story. Second, I admitted my luck was bad, but that ultimately any time you slap this upgrade on without H9s it's going to be a crapshoot, and it is an expensive upgrade to be something that may not even get used in a game.
In this case, I was specifically testing the mileage an ISD-II would get out of the upgrade, which depends entirely on luck. Or, as you said sensor teams, but then you sacrifice gunnery teams which is a cardinal sin on the ISD.
I played 3 games this weekend and all I have to say is that the liberty is not as great as I hoped it would be. I had been so used to ECM on my MC80 and AF that when the accuracies started getting thrown I just had to sit there and take it and if its to the sides your getting at least 2-3 hull damage. This was all against a ISD and Interdictor. I can say the gr-75s are the best thing now I can run a small squadron force and never worry about issuing squad commands to my bigger guns.
Liberty is probably better overall against other Rebel lists. I think other large ships are the best counter to it, whereas it just eats small ships alive. It's a big glass cannon.
Also seriously, medical team, take it. It does wonders keeping you alive for one point. Also the title that gives you contain might be worth looking into.
That said, unlike the ISD I don't think speed 3 is a deathtrap for it. Take Madine and navigate every round, you'll be quite surprised how nimble you are. Keep your front arc pointed at the major damage dealers, and you should come out alright.
I had medical team and it did not help at all which really disappointed me cause it is a great card! My next fleet is a liberty, whale, trc90 and a gr75 with madine so we'll see how that goes.
Had my first 3 games with the new Interdictor and Gozanti today. Have to say I was worried that the Interdictor's dice were going to be less then stellar for the ships size. However, seems that what dice it does have are reliable for 3 damage and an accuracy in most rolls. Not devastating, just effecient. My opponent learned quickly to have navigate commands to spare much of the game. Although it seemed like I was wasting my time constantly slowing his ships down just so they could command to regain that speed, it kept them from doing other commands they may rather have had in most cases.
Precisely the point. Even if you don't tar-pit the enemy, if you dictate his choices, you have the advantage.
I mostly sat out wave 2, so this is old news to everyone, but: holy god Victories are squishy now. Konstantine is hilarious, yes, but an Interdictor, two Victories with the barest of bones (Gunnery, XI7) and suddenly you're almost out of points and Targeting Scrambler just isn't enough to keep the Vics alive, whether the attacker is an ISD or a Gladiator. No ECM and one brace means an accuracy result is horrific, and there will be an accuracy result.
On the other side of the table, the durability of an ISD backed by a repairing Interdictor is, uh. Impressive. I may have to take a look at that.
I mostly sat out wave 2, so this is old news to everyone, but: holy god Victories are squishy now. Konstantine is hilarious, yes, but an Interdictor, two Victories with the barest of bones (Gunnery, XI7) and suddenly you're almost out of points and Targeting Scrambler just isn't enough to keep the Vics alive, whether the attacker is an ISD or a Gladiator. No ECM and one brace means an accuracy result is horrific, and there will be an accuracy result.
On the other side of the table, the durability of an ISD backed by a repairing Interdictor is, uh. Impressive. I may have to take a look at that.
You made my day right here!
On the note of Accuracies. . . I had an ISD 2 in blue range of a Flotilla and I rolled no accuracies on the 9 dice (most wanted) and 5 of them blue. Not once. . . but TWICE with the list linked.
Had my first 3 games with the new Interdictor and Gozanti today. Have to say I was worried that the Interdictor's dice were going to be less then stellar for the ships size. However, seems that what dice it does have are reliable for 3 damage and an accuracy in most rolls. Not devastating, just effecient. My opponent learned quickly to have navigate commands to spare much of the game. Although it seemed like I was wasting my time constantly slowing his ships down just so they could command to regain that speed, it kept them from doing other commands they may rather have had in most cases.
Precisely the point. Even if you don't tar-pit the enemy, if you dictate his choices, you have the advantage.
Dont forget those times where they dont navigate for a 2-3 commad ship. Now they are hosed!
Yeah, somebody at the table next to mine kept an isd grounded on an asteroid for three turns because it didn't have a navigation dial set
Had my first 3 games with the new Interdictor and Gozanti today. Have to say I was worried that the Interdictor's dice were going to be less then stellar for the ships size. However, seems that what dice it does have are reliable for 3 damage and an accuracy in most rolls. Not devastating, just effecient. My opponent learned quickly to have navigate commands to spare much of the game. Although it seemed like I was wasting my time constantly slowing his ships down just so they could command to regain that speed, it kept them from doing other commands they may rather have had in most cases.
Precisely the point. Even if you don't tar-pit the enemy, if you dictate his choices, you have the advantage.
Dont forget those times where they dont navigate for a 2-3 commad ship. Now they are hosed!
Yeah, somebody at the table next to mine kept an isd grounded on an asteroid for three turns because it didn't have a navigation dial set
Were you standing next to my table? Hah