Over in the Negative Nelly thread, several mentions were made about the Bodyguard spec being less bodyguardy than Instructor and Vanguard. I always liked the Bodyguard spec, and one of my favorite personal character concepts uses it.
Last night I played around with it some. I removed two Barrages and one Brace, replaced them with an additional Body Guard, Improved Body Guard, and Supreme Body Guard, and rearranged a little bit.
Thoughts?
I would ditch Barrage for Point Blank. Being an actual Bodyguard isn't just about taking a hit, it's about anticipating the threat before it occurs or using tactics to avoid it altogether, so I'd add Heightened Awareness and make Improved Heightened Awareness for the PC as well. A bodyguard also practices reacting to threats once they do occur so I'd add Rapid Reaction and Quickdraw, in place of some of the defense Talents.
I would ditch Barrage for Point Blank.
Agreed, I don't know what Barrage is doing in the original tree at all. It's more of a Heavy thing. I'd also think some melee talents, like Pin, would be useful.
It's a really strange Spec. Not sure why a Bodyguard would have an emphasis on ranged combat.
I have a PC who loves this tree, it synergises really well with Heavy, but it doesn't feel very Bodyguard-y...
Barrage is kind of a rubbish talent anyways IMO. I'd take a boost roll over a single point of damage any day of the week.
Just Cause 3 has a few missions that involve the character "guarding" people with a sniper scope. With Barrage, they could hit a threat harder than they could without it. It is still body guarding it is just multiple paths to do it.
No single specialization should be "this has everything I need to do X" if later designed specs have that, it does not mean the earlier ones were designed wrong, instead that the later ones were.
Body guard is not just Big guys keeping the paparazzi from taking photos. Take "The Dark Knight" every single cop that was protecting the trailer with the bad guy in it, was a Body Guard. Some were in helicopters, some were in armored cars, some were driving the trucks. Barrage was demonstrated multiple times during that one car chase and it thematically crushes it more than point blank does.
I'm uncomfortable putting Supreme Body Guard in there, just because, with the exception of what I call the "basic" Talent ladders (Inspiring Rhetoric, Scathing Tirade, Full Throttle, and Stim Application), there is not a single Supreme talent repeated in any two specs.
I would agree on Point Blank instead of Barrage, but disagree on Heightened Awareness: Heightened Awareness only gives is bonus to allies, so it doesn't really help the Bodyguard much.
Rapid Reaction I also agree with.
I might probably replace the Supreme Body Guard on Vanguard with something else. Not sure yet though since I don't have the book to really take a look.
I also agree about Barrage. And the spec also has Gunnery and Ranged - Heavy as career skills which are also out of place. Vigilance should replace one of those.
Edited by RLogue177I'm uncomfortable putting Supreme Body Guard in there, just because, with the exception of what I call the "basic" Talent ladders (Inspiring Rhetoric, Scathing Tirade, Full Throttle, and Stim Application), there is not a single Supreme talent repeated in any two specs.
I would agree on Point Blank instead of Barrage, but disagree on Heightened Awareness: Heightened Awareness only gives is bonus to allies, so it doesn't really help the Bodyguard much.
Rapid Reaction I also agree with.
That's why I said I would create the Talent Improved Heightened Awareness and a Bodyguard is typically part of a personal security detail.
Bodyguard description mentions they are diverse for various circumstances.
I would keep those extreme changes to a minimum. Don't delve into "oh, it should have THIS" line of thought.
I would focus primarily on integrating the Body Guard Improved/Supreme talents, and not much else.
Anyway, I'd suggest maybe culling Enduring instead. Not sure of what instead, as I'm AFB.
Just Cause 3 has a few missions that involve the character "guarding" people with a sniper scope. With Barrage, they could hit a threat harder than they could without it. It is still body guarding it is just multiple paths to do it.
No single specialization should be "this has everything I need to do X" if later designed specs have that, it does not mean the earlier ones were designed wrong, instead that the later ones were.
Body guard is not just Big guys keeping the paparazzi from taking photos. Take "The Dark Knight" every single cop that was protecting the trailer with the bad guy in it, was a Body Guard. Some were in helicopters, some were in armored cars, some were driving the trucks. Barrage was demonstrated multiple times during that one car chase and it thematically crushes it more than point blank does.
We aren't talking how someone plays a character though, a spec is a mechanical representation of a given career path. There are any number of career paths that ultimately provide and assist in a personal security effort, this spec though is about that group of people assigned directly to the warm body being guarded.
The President of the United States total security force when traveling abroad can number into the thousands, but they aren't all Body Guards.
Edited by 2P51Swapped out Barrage, one Side Step, and one Defensive Stance for Point Blank, Rapid Reaction, and Quick Draw. Swapped out Gunnery for Vigilance in the career skills.
The President of the United States total security force when traveling abroad can number into the thousands, but they aren't all Body Guards.
Technically speaking, yes they are all Body guards according to the definition of the term. That was sort of exactly the point I was making in my previous post. Just because you (seem to) have a narrow view of what a Bodyguard is, that does not mean it encompasses everything about a Bodyguard and I think the goal behind the specialization is to account for some of the other methods of guarding that cover a wider range of options.
Point Blank definitely makes more sense. Good swap.
The President of the United States total security force when traveling abroad can number into the thousands, but they aren't all Body Guards.
Technically speaking, yes they are all Body guards according to the definition of the term. That was sort of exactly the point I was making in my previous post. Just because you (seem to) have a narrow view of what a Bodyguard is, that does not mean it encompasses everything about a Bodyguard and I think the goal behind the specialization is to account for some of the other methods of guarding that cover a wider range of options.
So if someone said they were a neuro surgeon but they were actually a plumber you don't think there is a difference and would allow them to cut your head open?
We are talking about this in terms of a Body Guard, as in proper noun, as in specific career path. Someone could be a Slicer and say they want to do work as a Bounty Hunter, they're career/spec is still Slicer they're just doing bounty hunting work. That's the difference between what is being discussed here, the specific technical definition of a body guard.
Edited by 2P51
So if someone said they were a neuro surgeon but they were actually a plumber you don't think there is a difference and would allow them to cut your head open?
We are talking about this in terms of a Body Guard, as in proper noun, as in specific career path. Someone could be a Slicer and say they want to do work as a Bounty Hunter, they're career/spec is still Slicer they're just doing bounty hunting work. That's the difference between what is being discussed here, the specific technical definition of a body guard.
So where in your limited view of a Bodyguard does it state that they have to be within a certain range of the person they are guarding to perform their required duties?
The understanding I have, to a real Bodyguard or to a RPG Bodyguard, technically point blank would mean you failed at your duties and an enemy go too close.
It seems I stepped into a "wish fulfillment" thread rather than a "listen to the other side's opinion thread" my mistake.
So if someone said they were a neuro surgeon but they were actually a plumber you don't think there is a difference and would allow them to cut your head open?
We are talking about this in terms of a Body Guard, as in proper noun, as in specific career path. Someone could be a Slicer and say they want to do work as a Bounty Hunter, they're career/spec is still Slicer they're just doing bounty hunting work. That's the difference between what is being discussed here, the specific technical definition of a body guard.
So where in your limited view of a Bodyguard does it state that they have to be within a certain range of the person they are guarding to perform their required duties?
The understanding I have, to a real Bodyguard or to a RPG Bodyguard, technically point blank would mean you failed at your duties and an enemy go too close.
It seems I stepped into a "wish fulfillment" thread rather than a "listen to the other side's opinion thread" my mistake.
Look, the goal in the present discussion is to provide tangible advice as to what can be used in the creation of a specialization. Not to find any conceivable dimension of what might constitute a bodyguard or engage in a semantic discussion of what "body" and "guard" means. Most of us have a pretty coherent and consistent idea about what a bodyguard is when someone says "bodyguard" -- somewhere between a bouncer and a secret service agent. Not a sniper. Not a tank driver or a helicopter pilot. Can a bodyguard do any of those things? For sure. But we're talking about designing a spec, not making a "nice-to-have" list of skills or talents.
So if someone said they were a neuro surgeon but they were actually a plumber you don't think there is a difference and would allow them to cut your head open?
We are talking about this in terms of a Body Guard, as in proper noun, as in specific career path. Someone could be a Slicer and say they want to do work as a Bounty Hunter, they're career/spec is still Slicer they're just doing bounty hunting work. That's the difference between what is being discussed here, the specific technical definition of a body guard.
So where in your limited view of a Bodyguard does it state that they have to be within a certain range of the person they are guarding to perform their required duties?
The understanding I have, to a real Bodyguard or to a RPG Bodyguard, technically point blank would mean you failed at your duties and an enemy go too close.
It seems I stepped into a "wish fulfillment" thread rather than a "listen to the other side's opinion thread" my mistake.
You're forgiven.
RE: The repetition of Supreme talents across specs -- Full Throttle (Supreme) appears in Driver and Pilot, Inspiring Rhetoric (Supreme) appears in Politico and Ambassador, and Scathing Tirade (Supreme) appears in Politico and Agitator. So it happens within game lines, I see little problem with it appearing more than once across game lines.
So the full list of talents that a Bodyguard actually has:
I also looked at the other specs that have Body Guard (Tactician, Instructor, Protector, Vanguard), and none have more than 2 ranks. So that seems to be the "standard" amount for the talent. If you want Bodyguard to at least break even with the other specs, I would just trim Barrage down to 2 ranks, cut Enduring, then add Body Guard Improved and Supreme. Rearrange the layout of Side Step so Body Guard Improved/Supreme are a little bit gated behind at least 1 rank Body Guard.
If you want it to pull ahead a hair by adding that third rank of Body Guard, maybe sacrifice Toughened? There's a 25XP rank at 3-5; maybe move Defensive Stance in its place and put Body Guard where it was, at 3-4.
I think the Bodyguard spec is intended to represent a generic hired gun in use by all manner of individuals on the fringe. They are specifically intended to be diverse combatants and, despite the name, are not necessarily supposed to be literal bodyguards. I think the spec is intended to produce Brock Sampson (especially when mixed with Marauder).
Except their Talents aren't diverse. They get buffs only at long range to damage and they provide defensive boosts to their principle or themselves. That's actually pretty narrow and simultaneously pretty contradictory.
I think that they are rounded. They have skills to cover all forms of combat (excepting Lightsaber), and they even double down on Piloting (Planetary). Barrage helps to support both non-vehicular Gunnery and Ranged (Heavy). Almost everything else on the talents side is defensive, but that's because they need to stay up to do their job (keeping others up is part of it too). Do I think the spec is perfect? No, but it's not bad overall.
Getting away from a fight is what a Bodyguard is supposed to do, not stay in one.
Plus mechanically it makes little sense to fight at long range in this game, it's like Grey Matter said it really is a rubbish Talent.
Someone attacking a principle is either A) Going to want to capture the target, which means closing with it, or B) Kill the target, which means the body guard needs to get away. Neither supports Barrage as being particularly useful or relevant.
I don't have an issue with the defensive Talents, other than there's too many of them, as much as I do Barrage is just plain stupid, and there is nothing for reacting or escaping in the tree. Ditching Barrage to add things like Shortcut and/or Rapid Reaction makes way more sense.
Edited by 2P51Thus, Barrage: lean on defensive talents while moving away from the enemy, then hold them off with long-ranged weapons. Better still if you can fall back to a defensive speeder and rely on the vehicle weapons.
But if you don't win initiative they aren't going to ever be at long range. The first thing an adversary will do is close distance, and without stressing winning initiative in the spec with Rapid Reaction or , or getting away and opening distance with Shortcut, it's a Talent that will never get used.
Honestly how many scenarios involving a bodyguard situation are going to begin at long range or greater? Unless you are on Tatooine's surface, in any city environment, the threat and encounter will begin at much closer distance.
Edited by 2P51