I almost think that all you need to do is remove PTL from the game and it fixes a lot of your issues. Once you remove PTL Arc Dodgers, then a lot of other ships become viable again. Dengaroo is not as dangerous if you don't have to build your list to face Palp Aces.

I almost think that all you need to do is remove PTL from the game and it fixes a lot of your issues. Once you remove PTL Arc Dodgers, then a lot of other ships become viable again. Dengaroo is not as dangerous if you don't have to build your list to face Palp Aces.

I'd rather not remove cards from the game. I like what PTL does, but I don't like how it's forced on to every ship with 3 agility, boost, and green turns. I think I might actually cut the cost of lower PS squints even further because they can't benefit from PTL the way higher PS squints can, and just force higher PS squints to pay the tax.

Wow, I think you have created a lot of new rules it seems quite diffiicult to keep up with that. Do your friends always follow all these rules?

You had me at giving Horton Salm an EPT

I almost think that all you need to do is remove PTL from the game and it fixes a lot of your issues. Once you remove PTL Arc Dodgers, then a lot of other ships become viable again. Dengaroo is not as dangerous if you don't have to build your list to face Palp Aces.

I'd rather not remove cards from the game. I like what PTL does, but I don't like how it's forced on to every ship with 3 agility, boost, and green turns. I think I might actually cut the cost of lower PS squints even further because they can't benefit from PTL the way higher PS squints can, and just force higher PS squints to pay the tax.

The problem comes with some PTL Aces (namely Soontir Fel) being able to take on a whole squad of generic jousters on his own and winning. Dropping some jousters a few points doesn't exactly help them overall. If Soontir Fel on his own can defeat most of a list then it doesn't really matter. The issues I see are with PTL Aces being too powerful and jousters suffering because of it.

I almost think that all you need to do is remove PTL from the game and it fixes a lot of your issues. Once you remove PTL Arc Dodgers, then a lot of other ships become viable again. Dengaroo is not as dangerous if you don't have to build your list to face Palp Aces.

If you remove PTL from the game, you might as well tell everyone to pack up all of their interceptor models.

Also I would be very cautious about giving the VCX-100 pilots elites as well.

I would love to see "Hobbies" with an Elite. Him plus "Stay on Target" plus the Targeting Astromech would be sweet. His low pilot skill would not make him over powered.

Make sure to give Eaden Vrill an Elite as well!

didnt Vassal give ghosts an EPT and it proved to be an insane nightmare?

I feel like the slicer tools might bring balance to the PTL builds... Even Rebels would be able to take it at least once with Sabines TIE. And the new ARC fighter, especially with Braylen and stressbot (maybe even Gunner) seems to give the Rebels quite some new stressing options to fight PTL aces. You can't take PTL away from the game as it would become quite a boring dog fight for a lot of matchups and after all it's all about fun

Palp needs to be restrained in some way I agree... Maybe just make him Epic only since I think the balance would benefit from having the Emperor removed... And if not, raising the cost to 12 seems appropriate. You could even raise it to 16 and leave PTL costed as is. I really think Palp is more of a problem than PTL.

Manaroo's ability is just so **** cool and I think would suffer a lot from limiting the range. the one build that would not suffer as much is Dengaroo as 2 large ships are often in range 3 of each other and that's probably the reason you would want to limit it. If you can limit her ability in another way but not range it would allow for more fun IMHO.

Anyway, what time can I come around to test your new house rules?

I almost think that all you need to do is remove PTL from the game and it fixes a lot of your issues. Once you remove PTL Arc Dodgers, then a lot of other ships become viable again. Dengaroo is not as dangerous if you don't have to build your list to face Palp Aces.

If you remove PTL from the game, you might as well tell everyone to pack up all of their interceptor models.

Not true. Why, Soontir would be put away, which is the intent. The other high PS arc dodgers would, as well. That's not all Interceptors, though. Perhaps you should say "all currently competitive interceptors". If that's the case, then yes, I agree. That is the whole reason for it.

You can still use all the generic ones fine enough. I mean, they can joust just fine.

Also I would be very cautious about giving the VCX-100 pilots elites as well.

I would love to see "Hobbies" with an Elite. Him plus "Stay on Target" plus the Targeting Astromech would be sweet. His low pilot skill would not make him over powered.

Make sure to give Eaden Vrill an Elite as well!

Oh good catch. I actually didn't give the VCX pilots EPTs. I forgot about them when typing this up.

Hobbie has an EPT. Actually went back to check Vrill, and I DIDN'T give him an EPT for some reason. Fixed it now so he does.

Please move this thread to the "Scorned Rebel Circlejerk" subtopic. Ty.

I feel like the slicer tools might bring balance to the PTL builds... Even Rebels would be able to take it at least once with Sabines TIE. And the new ARC fighter, especially with Braylen and stressbot (maybe even Gunner) seems to give the Rebels quite some new stressing options to fight PTL aces. You can't take PTL away from the game as it would become quite a boring dog fight for a lot of matchups and after all it's all about fun

Palp needs to be restrained in some way I agree... Maybe just make him Epic only since I think the balance would benefit from having the Emperor removed... And if not, raising the cost to 12 seems appropriate. You could even raise it to 16 and leave PTL costed as is. I really think Palp is more of a problem than PTL.

Manaroo's ability is just so **** cool and I think would suffer a lot from limiting the range. the one build that would not suffer as much is Dengaroo as 2 large ships are often in range 3 of each other and that's probably the reason you would want to limit it. If you can limit her ability in another way but not range it would allow for more fun IMHO.

Anyway, what time can I come around to test your new house rules?

I actually think Slicer tools will bring some balance, but it will be tough to know right now if it will neuter PTL enough to get jousters back in the game. And there is also the argument that PTL isn't really the issue because you will still have Whisper, Vader and, to a less extent, Omega Leader giving jousters issues (though likely not as much of a problem).

Dengaroo was actually nerfed in a couple of ways- Manaroo's range restriction, and Zuckuss was also retooled to only be capable of triggering when you have 4 or less.

And I might try to get a house rules league on vassal started. Could be pretty fun.

Please move this thread to the "Scorned Rebel Circlejerk" subtopic. Ty.

R2-D2, C3P0, Dash Rendar and R5-P8 all nerfed... Tie Punisher, Mid PS Tie adv, Tie Fighters, and Tie Interceptors buffed. Firespray, Scyk, G1-A, K Fighter, Starviper all buffed.

So I have to ask... What did your post add to this discussion?

I don't think Vader would be a huge issue. I mean, he's tough....but he's supposed to be! He's Vader. He's not as broken as Soontir Fel is, though.

I don't think Omega Leader is too powerful, either. Does she mess with enemy? Yes, but she's still just a Tie Fighter. Throw enough shots at her and she dies.

Whisper? Yes.....that is an issue. If I were remaking the rules, I'd just outlaw Advanced Cloaking Device. That right there makes Tie Phantoms reasonable. They are still quite powerful, but they don't have the "haha...you can't touch me" power anymore.

"Scorned Rebel Circlejerk"? More like "people who miss jousting in the game". I primarily play Imperials, but I think X-wing has lost something.

I don't think Vader would be a huge issue. I mean, he's tough....but he's supposed to be! He's Vader. He's not as broken as Soontir Fel is, though.

I don't think Omega Leader is too powerful, either. Does she mess with enemy? Yes, but she's still just a Tie Fighter. Throw enough shots at her and she dies.

Whisper? Yes.....that is an issue. If I were remaking the rules, I'd just outlaw Advanced Cloaking Device. That right there makes Tie Phantoms reasonable. They are still quite powerful, but they don't have the "haha...you can't touch me" power anymore.

"Scorned Rebel Circlejerk"? More like "people who miss jousting in the game". I primarily play Imperials, but I think X-wing has lost something.

Hahah Chadwick stop trying to throw things in the garbage!

Not sure if there is much that can be done about Whisper. Honestly, the best fix might be to just whip her down to PS 6 alongside Echo. There are enough threats at PS 8 and 9 that players would have to think twice about bringing her.

OL isnt as deadly as people think, his ability is just overglorified because NO MODS AT ALL MUHAHAHAHA ... yeah for this ship but what about the guy flanking you?

Still a very mean ship. Probably the best low priced 1on1 ship available because of that ability. Moment theres other ships he isnt remotely as deadly, but still a huge threat because of the impending 1on1.

Every time i see him i gun for him immediately. I'd rather 1on1 soontir...im not joking lol. Until its a 1on1 he doesnt phase me, but im not daft enough to think i'll stay at more than 1 ship for the entire game

I don't think Vader would be a huge issue. I mean, he's tough....but he's supposed to be! He's Vader. He's not as broken as Soontir Fel is, though.

I don't think Omega Leader is too powerful, either. Does she mess with enemy? Yes, but she's still just a Tie Fighter. Throw enough shots at her and she dies.

Whisper? Yes.....that is an issue. If I were remaking the rules, I'd just outlaw Advanced Cloaking Device. That right there makes Tie Phantoms reasonable. They are still quite powerful, but they don't have the "haha...you can't touch me" power anymore.

"Scorned Rebel Circlejerk"? More like "people who miss jousting in the game". I primarily play Imperials, but I think X-wing has lost something.

Hahah Chadwick stop trying to throw things in the garbage!

Not sure if there is much that can be done about Whisper. Honestly, the best fix might be to just whip her down to PS 6 alongside Echo. There are enough threats at PS 8 and 9 that players would have to think twice about bringing her.

My hatred of Phantoms is well documented, but still.....if you remove Adv. Cloaking Device, then much of the issue of Phantoms is resolved. They are still nasty, but not so untouchable.

OL isnt as deadly as people think, his ability is just overglorified because NO MODS AT ALL MUHAHAHAHA ... yeah for this ship but what about the guy flanking you?

Still a very mean ship. Probably the best low priced 1on1 ship available because of that ability.

What about Dark Curse? He doesn't have a shield or the same dial, but he also doesn't need a TL.

heychadwick, just a thought that I'm sure will rankle some but, how about simply leaving Soontir and Whisper as is since they are great we can always have fun but removing them from the tournament scene?

Yep I said it, typed it and admit to it. What if FFG , instead of micro-balancing and refixing everything, simply took some cards out of the tournament. Not that many. I've said for weeks now that an easy fix to contracted scouts isn't changing a thing other than all large ships require a title when played. You would only have one large ship in most any tournament.

FFG would never remove cards from the game as it goes against their ways. They would rather introduce things that utterly counter those things and leave it at that. It gets too messy when you start restricting things.

Now, the OP is talking about house rules, which is another story! I think the game is vastly improved if you remove PTL and Adv. Cloaking Device.

I don't think having more than one large based ship in a list is a bad thing. I don't think U-boats or Dengaroo is unbeatable. What I think is that the lists that beat them are not the lists that can beat PTL Aces, as well. If you remove the PTL Aces, then you open up a lot more options against U-boats.

The problem that I see in the game at the moment are a few ships that can pick these general moves and then auto correct themselves to basically become impossible to beat....unless you have a high PS ace that can move around in the same fashion. When one or two ships can utterly destroy a whole list of generic jousters, then you pretty much remove the feasibility of jousters in the entire game. It's the level of repositioning at high PS that really destroys jousting. Fat Turrets were hated so much because if you did not block/bump them early, you didn't have a chance to win. Tie Phantom lists that were only 86 pts easily defeated full 100 pt lists of some of the best players. Stealth Soontir with Palpatine makes it incredibly hard to get a hit through. The aspect of being untouchable in the game is what ruins the fun of many people. It is what removes jousters from having a place in the game. If you want to have jousting have any place in the game, you need to remove the untouchables from the game.

I like the things you changed to bring never used cards back into the game.

The nerfs to the meta-lists could be done slightly different, though I don't really know how to do it in detail.

Instead of just nerfing everything that is dominant at the moment, I'd rather try bring some of the best jouster options, some of the best arc dodger options and some of the best turret options to a similar level and then bring the rarely used cards to a level, so these can act as equal substitutes for those cards that are in the meta now.

I could imagine that your homebrew rules will result in a "jouster-only" meta. I guess you nerfed the concept of arc dodging a bit too much (in comparison to the jousting and turrets) because you killed soontir, the iquisitor, so only darth vader is actually left as a "real" arc dodger. So now turret ships are rarely needed to counter those.

As soon as empire players start switching to like 4 gamma-veterans (which isnt affected by your rules at all), most turrets are gone as well. Thats just the first thing that came to my mind, so I might be completly wrong.

I think PtL should not be changed (or it should say "you can not use it to focus+evade but only to barrel roll+boost", something like that), but AT deserve a nerf, as the strength gap between turrets and jousters is now lower then when AT came out. Killing Palpatine is ok as well.

Furthermore, I dont think ORS should be one point more than Omicrons.

My thoughts:

I feel like I may have been a bit too tough on aces. PTL, AT, and Palp all going up in cost could really neuter them.

I considered making Crack Shot a point more, as Crack Swarm seems to be especially powerful with these house rules, but that's really difficult because what makes Crack so great is that it IS 1 point. At 2 it loses a lot.

Also wasn't sure what to do with the B-wing line. I feel like I could drop the overpriced pilots by 2 and the rest by one, but I also think the B-wing's issues right now may be meta based and not truly indicate it is overpriced. But, if I'm dropping points on all the X-wing pilots, I guess it would only make sense to drop the costs of the B-wings... Tough call.

I'm sure there are other things I totally missed or messed up. Criticism is welcome, but try not to tear me a new one if you think my pricing is straight up garbage haha.

Overall I think you have a good handle on adjustments that would allow more ships and pilots to be viable.

The main thing I don't like is all the price increases. Meaning, balancing rules should mostly be decreasing cost for underutilized ships, or giving ships new abilities. The Tie Defender titles are perfect examples of game balancing.

The one true exception would be increasing Palpatines price to 10-12 points.

As you already suspect, Crack Shot is just fine at 1 point. I would say Predator is fine at 3 points. PTL could probably be 3.5 points. If I created house rules I would go to a 200 point system, doubling everything.

In this day and age, all B-wings are overpriced. Probably around 2 points for named pilots like you say. Generics need at least a point less. BBBBZ use to be good, but current meta has moved well beyond that level of power.

My thoughts:

I feel like I may have been a bit too tough on aces. PTL, AT, and Palp all going up in cost could really neuter them.

I considered making Crack Shot a point more, as Crack Swarm seems to be especially powerful with these house rules, but that's really difficult because what makes Crack so great is that it IS 1 point. At 2 it loses a lot.

Also wasn't sure what to do with the B-wing line. I feel like I could drop the overpriced pilots by 2 and the rest by one, but I also think the B-wing's issues right now may be meta based and not truly indicate it is overpriced. But, if I'm dropping points on all the X-wing pilots, I guess it would only make sense to drop the costs of the B-wings... Tough call.

I'm sure there are other things I totally missed or messed up. Criticism is welcome, but try not to tear me a new one if you think my pricing is straight up garbage haha.

Overall I think you have a good handle on adjustments that would allow more ships and pilots to be viable.

The main thing I don't like is all the price increases. Meaning, balancing rules should mostly be decreasing cost for underutilized ships, or giving ships new abilities. The Tie Defender titles are perfect examples of game balancing.

The one true exception would be increasing Palpatines price to 10-12 points.

As you already suspect, Crack Shot is just fine at 1 point. I would say Predator is fine at 3 points. PTL could probably be 3.5 points. If I created house rules I would go to a 200 point system, doubling everything.

In this day and age, all B-wings are overpriced. Probably around 2 points for named pilots like you say. Generics need at least a point less. BBBBZ use to be good, but current meta has moved well beyond that level of power.

That honestly would probably be the best way to go about house rules. Double the cost of everything, play at 100 point, and raise things like VI and Crack to 3 points, PTL to 8, etc.

I might do that some day. Might be a bit more work but it probably would create more balance.

Threads like this always make me smile. If you go back about 18 months you'll find similar threads trying to fix the imbalance caused by far turrets. A year before that it was TIE-swarms.

Let Aces and jumpmasters have their moment in the sun. Come this time next year people will worrying over the new hotness- probably bombs and auto-damagers tearing up everything or some craziness like that.

I'm still trying to figure out why people have a hard time killing Fel, people have him at god status. Give me 3 academies and I'll shut him down before he can blow one up. People truly under estimate the power of a block. And honestly if you think you can't take him out with 3 academies, no wonder you don't like the tournament scene.