Ok now most you are probably going to read this and think I am crazy but i have been playing games like this for years. To be quite honest I love Rogue Trader. So much in fact that I spend a great deal of time developing my characters and keeping records in a ships log to maintain an accurate account of "In-Character" experiences. I recently started a new game group so that I could continue playing. This group is of course my old DH group which is great because most of them have a passion for the game. Then of course however I have to deal with our old GM because he refuses to do anything else. The original reason the group disbanded was because of constant squabbling over "I am the GM if i say you character wouldnt do that you cant do that." I am perfactly willing to get into the spirit of RP using my alter ego to smash aside xenos scum in my bid for power but the GM continues to dash aside any imagination even going as far to berate people who arent keeping a dark demenor because nobody is happy in the 41st millenium.

Now the original reason I posted this is because i need advice from RPers whether GMs or not. He respect the opinion of the RP community just not his groups so perhaps you can post some suggestions to him to me and future game to disbanding because of a GM. My intention is to show him this in the hopes that he will grasp the the GM leads through story telling and adapts to player decisions otherwise its a video game and you can only play most video games once and it will always have the same outcome. Even if you disagree post something. I will take anything just as long as i dont have to go through the ridiculous process of getting another gaming group together.

this is a copy i am trying to i apologize.

It's not the GM's job to instruct the players how to roleplay their characters. The GM might be the master of the stats and rules of the game world, but how player characters act and what they say and what they think about different things is completely under the players control, not the GM.

Also if you aren't having a good time while playing with this GM then he's the one doing a crappy job as a GM. Granted you might be the only one who feels that way in the group, and if that's the case then you might just not like that GM's particular style. But if complaints come from several players then there can only be one persons fault, and that is the GM.

As a rule of thumb I'd say that a nice, fair and fun gaming enviroment arise when players dedicate time and effort to try to integrate themselves in the game world, and when the GM is doing his/her very best to insure that the players get to experience a good story and have a good time. From your description it doesn't seem like the GM in question has this in mind, and if that's the case then maybe he/she should step down from the position and let someone else take a shot at it.

The GM position doesn't have to be cemented to just one person for all eternity. There is nothing wrong with taking turns to GM. In fact, it tends to bring a good deal of perspective to both players and GM's alike. The regular players who try to GM will know how hard it can be sometimes to try to run a game and make sure the players are having fun, and should take the experience to heart and act accordingly the next time they are playing and work with the GM at the best of their abilities. Likewise the GM taking the player role should take the experience to heart and try to isolate what the other GM's in the group might do better and what they do worse and try to improve his/her own style in the process.

So my suggestion here is: if you feel that the GM is being a tyrant, talk to him or her about it. There's no reason to be mean or attacking the GM, but make it known that you aren't pleased with the tyrannical behaviour and style but that you are more than willing to play along and help create a good story if the GM in question just cut you some slack and try to respect your wishes instead of just fulfilling his/her own.

//Varnias Tybalt - Player and GM for several years now, and I never dictate how players should roleplay, I just let the gameworld respond to whatever shenanigans the PC's might hatch.

I am my troops GM I have been a Tyrant for good reason. I really enjoy being a GM but I want to try being a player and it was very hard to let the job go to a new guy but it was a reawaking feeling to my Game Mastering. The big thing for Player's and GM's is to talk this can be as a problem rises or at the end of the session during the Feed Back. Where the GM get what the players Liked and my favorite there Dislikes this is where you can say why a ruling didn't seem fair and you clear things up maybe the players would like less combat and more politics or for a love story, more detail in descriptions of the world your in.

Feed back is there for the player to give back to there GM I like to hear my player say what they liked and surprise there dislikes that's how I know there really enjoying the game and there helping to shape it with me.This has worked for many years with many different groups and my players from time to time bring back old times and old games remembering character deaths and triumphs.

As Varnias Tybalt has stated earlyer Talking to your GM and fellow players see if anyone feels the same good luck

Best advice? Take turns to GM adventures for a while. I like to lay down the GM hat every now and again to remind myself what it's like to be a PC, and that helps me make the next adventure I run better for everyone concerned.

Your GM would also do well to remember one aspect of the Dark Millennium he may have forgotten - many, many people don't realise that thier lot is a rubbishy one. Ignorance is Strength, to borrow a phrase that fits quite neatly here. He might also consider that some people revel in dystopia - those men who join the Inquisition because they like hurting people, who take advantage of the Imperial lack of interest in personal crimes to indulge in thier darker pleasures.

And finally, to reiterate a point - the GM's first job is to keep people enjoying the adventure. Of course the GM has to be firm sometimes, ignore the PCs when they complain about being challenged (No pain, no game after all) and have fun himself, but the PCs are human for a reason - to make thier own choices and a more dynamic and interesting game as a result

I have GMed both Rogue Trader and Dark Heresy. I have read more than a few dozen Warhammer 40k novels and no where has it stated that everyone is unhappy and evil. Actually I have read about great places of untold beauty and of people of pure thought and feelings. Yes its 40k and the Imperium of Man is in the Dark Ages. But come on if everyone is bad then the war vs chaos would have already been lost. The Imperium lives on the souls of both the strong and the weak. Priest sing of stories heroic and motivation, some not as realistic as other but some truth is in them.

Sorry Im ranting. Anyways not everyone needs to be a certain way in the 40k world. There is a place for everyone, even if that means your a heretic.

About GMing, well if you running a game for a group of players its as much fun as you make it. Both the players and the GM should have fun and it should never feel like a chore for ether party. If the players want to venture into the Maw and destroy every xenos that passes their sight. Well let them do it, even if sooner or later they get shot to bits and have to run back to Port Wander their tails between their legs. All roleplaying games are like sandboxes, you can create your own world in them and if you dont like it. Knock it over and restart. Just have fun.

DM Variyn said:

Hehe, no not really. You could say that the Imperium of Man is like a more "orderly" version of "bad/evil", while chaos is a more anarchistic version of "bad/evil".

We are after all, talking about the same Empire that thinks it is okay to murder the population of entire planets just because a bunch of evil "free thinkers" are getting beyon the control of the ultimate censorship organisation (aka "The Inquisition").

So the fight that is: Imperium vs Chaos, isn't really a fight between "good" and "evil". It's more like a fight between two different evils, and no one is really sure of which one is the worst one yet.

Still, that doesn't mean that all people living within the Imperium has to be evil or degenerate (even if a large degree of the population will be). There are two human responses to when things look extremely bleak and dystopic. Either they go with the dystopia and become degenerate and wicked themselves, or they imply grow tired of the current situation and try to make things better (or at the very least: not acting like an ******* all the time, because they come from conditions where everyone does seem to act like assholes, and they know how miserable the living conditions tend to be when everyone does).

The matter of how grim the grim, dark future is is something that has come up a little in my gaming group as well. My stance is that humans have to have hope (and fun) in order to keep going. If you look at war situations, or the grimmest pieces of our history, people still find things to laugh at, have things they are looking forward to in the future, falling in love... That's just people for you. Also, the Imperium is vast, and not everyone on every planet will be all that aware of the wider situation and how grim things truly are. Some of them at least must be living in blissful ignorance!

So, in my opinion, it's not all grim, even in Dark Heresy. Rogue Trader opens a whole new door to the less-grim side of the Imperium (or can do, depending on the sort of game you're playing). I think there should be a balance between the hard times - tough battles and moral decisions where things aren't necessarily black and white - and the good times, where people have fun, get a chance to relax and rebalance themselves, and generally remember what they're fighting for, and that life is worth living.

Aside from anything else, if it's all a miserable grind of unrelenting horror, the nasty bits lose their impact on the players. Plus those players might decide they'd rather be doing something fun with their free time!

Hi Marsfool,

if you GM is really that bad and simply telling him that all of you can´t enjoy the game that way, you should stop this and search for another GM.

Perhaps one of your group would like to run a game as GM? I understood that you GM "refuses" to be a pc but after all... he doesn´t have to play with you guys if he does not want to.

Thanks for the advice guys this is my first trip to the forums but this has been helpful. Anyeay took most of the advice. My GM has decided to fall to your greater experience as I was hoping. He has decided to take a break and work on his attitude. What was funny is he suddenly realized while playing a pc that it was harder than it looked. He wanted to be the leader but we voted amongst our characters and decided that i was still RT he is to which is cool because he has attempted to leave me to my death several times the last time we played. On our most recent venture he left me to face the Basilisk posted elseware on the forums. Anyway it has been fun with him playing and he is starting to realize he had lofty standards of roleplaying. Needless to say however his character is "the most depressing, pessimestic cousin i have ever had the displeasure of being related to."

Marsfool said:

You sound like Ivan Vorpatil talking about Miles Vorkosigan XD

LOL so true.... Your GM sounds soooo much like our old one which has not been invited back to RT which I am now running. I agree with others about feedback being key, it allows me ot know what is going on and sometimes knock some sense into me. The beauty of RT though is unlike other RPGs it is not as linear, it is more like a game of Oblivion. Free roam to an extent as the players are completely free to look up endevours and choose what tehy want to do. Course I can always steer them where I want them, it still is up to them how they resolve all their issues.

You could try pointing out to him that while the life of the AVERAGE Imperial citizen is one filled with an endless cycle of depression, subjugation and endless toil, that the elite actually live quite comfortable and decadent lives, built upon that suffering. The whole point of Rogue Trader as opposed to Dark Heresy is that you are that decadent elite now, you don't really give two ***** about the plight of the common working man, because you can buy and sell him by the thousands (plentiful avaliblity and poor quality).

It is in fact more out of character for your character to be all grim and miserable, if anything the Rogue Trader and his entourage should be living the high life in the lap of luxury and splendor on all the wonderfully exclusive pleasure planets and tropical paradises, laughing at the man breaking his back for a bowl of gruel. Because you've got all the wealth and power and you're **** well going to abuse it in the Grim'n'Dark future.

Gregorius21778 said:

Aye, this exactly. Some people's playstyles are so different your never going to "get along" in game with how you each want adventures and campaigns to go. Your best bet is to look for another GM. Good luck!

Hey mars first of all cool name lol

anyway on to the serious matter my friends were talking about this post today after our scenario and a lot of what these guys say is correct. You should talk to your gm especially at the end of your games we have recently started doing it in our group and group dynamics have improved greatly. I think its funny that your Gm plays the same way as he tells a story. I do that all the time and i pretty sure my characters are a little insane to most "average" imperial citizens. But remember that the point is to have fun. Which is a point i only recently had time to think about. Even if thirty aliens are crawling all over your ships and you have no way of stoping them. At least then you can run to your escape pod and leave you old GM before he backstabs you. LOL

To play devil's advocate, maybe he wants to run a very dark and ominous/gothic style of game. If that's the case, and the characters are running around like they're playing Paranoia, then the themes of the campaign and adventures can be quite obtrusive to the proposed setting.

Take for example a movie like Dark City. What if the main character woke up from his slumber and was like, "Yeehaw, I've got no memory, let's gets laid!" This would likely ruin the ideas and themes of the setting.

I'm all for player freedom, but at the same time, the players should do their best to enhance the feel of the game, not derail it. Only you would know if this is the case, or if it's simply his inability to adapt to the situation.

For example, I once had a player who portrayed his character as happy go lucky and it was ruining everyone else's game because he stuck out like sore thumb (think of it like Nine Inch Nails being fronted by the guy from Bare Naked Ladies instead of Trent Reznor! Yes, you can send me hate mail for even thinking such a thing). So, in one session, the most terrible thing happened to the character. . . I mean really, really terrible to the point where his character couldn't justifably be portrayed in the same light as prior to the event.

Sometimes, things can be solved in game, and maybe each side - the players AND the GM - can meet half way to better see each other's perspectives.

Good luck and happy (err, I mean depressing) gaming.

Velozity said:

Sorry for the derail, but this made me laugh.

That film would have been... errr... very different.

Velozity said:

Well, to play the devil's prosecutor a little: don't you think that there should be a certain degree of communication between the GM and the players? And that the GM should be able to anticipate certain behaviour and play styles depending on the type of characters the players are rolling up?

This is why I demand my players to establish on beforehand what their characters are like, so that I can give my input of change to certain personalities and quirks that I may find necessary to make the campaign work without derailings. This also lets me judge when my players are roleplaying their characters well or when they don't roleplay them as well as they could have.

If the GM simply goes: Im gonna write this campaign as I see fit and I don't care what type of characters you guys roll up. Then the GM only has him/herself to blame if some characters go and do things that stick out like a sore thumb in that campaign.

Also, I happen to be of the school that the GM should prioritize what type of player characters the players want to play first and foremost, BEFORE cementing the style of the campaign. I.e work with finished characters as the backdrop, not writing a campaign and trying to shoehorn ill fitting characters into it.

Whatever style the "show" might have, the show should first and foremost be about the PC's. They are supposed to be the stars and maincast in the show after all...

In the short campaign that I was running before scheduling issues killed it, I worked pretty extensively with the players in order to help them create their characters and get into the setting and the particular headspace that RPing them needed. I started the campaign off with their characters being assigned to a team of acolytes and put through some preliminary training before their first offworld assignment together (both to get them introduced to the setting and to get all of us used to the system). Never made it out of the training portion, unfortunately, but it was working pretty well to build them into a team and set the tone for the campaign, and I'll likely make use of that again if I run another DH game.

In general, I'm of the school of thought that involves penalties (or even bonuses) to players declaring they're doing off-the-wall stuff, and failures on rolls that don't directly effect the PCs' health and sanity delaying success and/or causing other complications instead of outright failure. As such, I'd say try running a game of your own and introduce the "Friendly Fire Target Commissar"-style GM to other ways to run the game than being a git.

To be honest id get another gaming group, its you fun time right? If he is this much of a ******* (no offence to you for trying to find a way to game with him) Id just find another group, I work in Australia and there gaming community is minisucle compared to almost everywhere else yet I can easily find a new group for Dark Heresy, can you tell us where you are from? the USA? if so you should be easily able to find a new group of people and establish a better group imho, I think its better then trying to play with people who are gits.

Abhoth said:

You think gaming in Australia is minisucle ? Try gaming in less developed region of Croatia ...

I have only 2 Explorers and a couple of NPC's XD

I second the motion that gaming sucks in Australia, I get a 320km round trip by road to see my group.

Marsfool said:

Essentially, its funny because its presented that way, they're all a bunch of miserable pricks that stand around posing in spandex, leather, 80's rocker skulls and spikes with a look on their face like the've sucked on a lemon... and an improbably large amount of very large ordinance. I've never really figured it out myself if the creators of such literary and artistic works where serious or just seriously taking the piss out of themselves with the dark humour, in the end you just sort of take it as being tongue in cheek and try to just go along with it without splitting your ribs laughing at the absurdity of it all.