Rebel squadrons

By chr335, in Star Wars: Armada

Ard hit the nail on the head there. Firesprays pay a significant tax for ease of use, not only in points but IMO in the lack of a black bomber die. In wave 2, that lack was less keenly felt, but with BCC popping up in so many bomber lists I feel its absence more keenly. On the flip, B-Wings are incredibly efficient in themselves, but incentivze you to invest elsewhere so you can bring them to bear. It's part of why I like FCT's so much, because any squadron benefits from free movement so I dont feel like I'm spending points just to make B-Wings better. I'm spending points to increase the efficacy of my squadron ball as a whole, because as needed those moves can be handed to Xwings or Jan or whatever.

(see below)

Edited by AllWingsStandyingBy
The B-wing gains a dramatic increase in efficiency in exchange for that -1 speed and lack of Rogue. It's just a question of knowing how to fly it.

                B-wing       Firespray
Anti-squadron: .160 dmg/pt   .125 dmg/pt
Anti-ship:     .125 dmg/pt   .083 dmg/pt
Hull:          .357 hull/pt  .333 hull/pt

Sure, but that 1-Speed and lack of Rogue is huge. Obviously the B-Wing is a more efficient use of those points in a vacuum. But the game isn't played in a vacuum, and not just because space in Star Wars is some sort of aether.

Even if the Firesprays get only one more round of combat than the B-Wings due to their increased speed and/or Rogue, you're now looking at the Firesprays havinga better Damage/Round per point score. If B-Wings are only attacking 2-3 rounds of the game, but Firesprays (or 2400s) are attacking for 4-5 rounds the efficiency scores now swing far into favor of the FS/2400s if you look at attack dice per round. Rhymer is so freaking stupidly good because he grants your squadrons extra rounds of combat they wouldn't normally get. If a Fireball or Piranaha Pack of 2400s attacks five rounds of the game, it's efficiency stats are going to absolutely embarrass a B-Wing Ball that might be lucky to get two rounds of attacking in during the six round game.

This is why squad-heavy lists that have won big events have always had Squadrons that could ensure maximum rounds of attacking (e.g. A-Wing Spam, 2400 Piranha Pack, or Rhymer Balls). Actual data is heavily on my side here looking at 2015 Worlds, 2016 Origins, and 2016 Gencon (and even the Regionals data bears this out when squad-heavy lists have placed highly).

The B-Wing's efficiency is utter garbage if you look at how many attack dice it rolls per game per point compared to other squadrons. Which is part of why they have not been significantly represented in top squads. Maybe this will change with the advent of FTCs, but I still wonder why I'd use them to make my mediocre slow squadrons average speed when I could just make my average or fast squadrons even faster.

You know, for someone whose chosen name is AllWingsStandingBy... You think you'd be more tolerant of inclusion :D

Utter codswallop

If Bwings fire for three rounds, and firesprays for four rounds, then Bwings average more damage per point.....

Utter codswallop

If Bwings fire for three rounds, and firesprays for four rounds, then Bwings average more damage per point.....

But it's close, and you've probably invested lots of other points elsewhere to ensure those B-Wings get those three rounds of combat (carriers, FTCs, Independence, Talon, etc.). Also, three rounds of combat for B-Wings is on the high end of their range, and they are always at a risk of a game against Mothma/Ackbar TRC corvette swarm where they'll probably get no rounds of combat. On the other hand, four rounds of combat for Firesprays is not at all unreasonable for them, even with no other points of investment. Add in Rhymer, and it's pretty hard to not get five rounds of combat (and even 6 is possible if the opponent comes at you during Round 1).

I really cannot imaging a situation where B-Wings are more efficient in an actual tabletop situation, outside of the most B-Wing friendly match-ups and opponent strategies (e.g. someone flying an ISD at Speed 3 right into your cloud of B-Wings).

If you just want to me to acknowledge that on paper in a perfect world B-Wings are more efficient, than sure, I agree with you. But Armada is played on the table, not paper, and the situations of the game are very rarely ideal for B-Wings.

Edited by AllWingsStandyingBy

(e.g. someone flying an ISD at Speed 3 right into your cloud of B-Wings).

That's not B-Wing Friendly at all!

Speed 1. Or Ramming Something... While stuck on some Asteroids or Debris...

No, I want you to admit that using fighter coordination teams to boost BWings is far better than making other squads faster.

I want you to admit that your posts on this page are flawed.

I want you to stop trying to find an easy way out of admitting you are wrong.

I'm not saying--and I think the same goes for the others here--the B-wing is outright always better than the Firespray. I'm just saying that "just four points less" is pretty disingenuous when we're talking about values of 14-18, and refuting your implication that the fantastically inefficient Firespray is somehow a bargain compared to one of the most points-efficient squadrons in the game.

The Firespray is easy to use and flexible, yes. But you're paying for that flexibility. Whether it's worth it or not is entirely on the player; that's not something for which you'll find a definitive yes or no answer.

No, I want you to admit that using fighter coordination teams to boost BWings is far better than making other squads faster.

I want you to admit that your posts on this page are flawed.

I want you to stop trying to find an easy way out of admitting you are wrong.

No, I want you to admit that using fighter coordination teams to boost BWings is far better than making other squads faster.

I want you to admit that your posts on this page are flawed.

I want you to stop trying to find an easy way out of admitting you are wrong.

Hey look, a picture of you when I admit those things:

853844.jpg

I'm not in the habit of admitting things I don't believe. B-Wings are too inflexible and too dependent on what your opponent brings to the table.

Edited by AllWingsStandyingBy

Well this escalated quickly

No, I want you to admit that using fighter coordination teams to boost BWings is far better than making other squads faster.

I want you to admit that your posts on this page are flawed.

I want you to stop trying to find an easy way out of admitting you are wrong.

Hey look, a picture of you when I admit those things:853844.jpg

I'm not in the habit of admitting things I don't believe. B-Wings are too inflexible and too dependent on what your opponent brings to the table.

No, I want you to admit that using fighter coordination teams to boost BWings is far better than making other squads faster.

I want you to admit that your posts on this page are flawed.

I want you to stop trying to find an easy way out of admitting you are wrong.

Hey look, a picture of you when I admit those things:853844.jpg

I'm not in the habit of admitting things I don't believe. B-Wings are too inflexible and too dependent on what your opponent brings to the table.

Want to play on Vassal and find out?

Is this going to be a thing now? Every disagreement boiling down to a "Let's fight to the death to determine who is right."

No, I want you to admit that using fighter coordination teams to boost BWings is far better than making other squads faster.

I want you to admit that your posts on this page are flawed.

I want you to stop trying to find an easy way out of admitting you are wrong.

Hey look, a picture of you when I admit those things:853844.jpg

I'm not in the habit of admitting things I don't believe. B-Wings are too inflexible and too dependent on what your opponent brings to the table.

Want to play on Vassal and find out?

Is this going to be a thing now? Every disagreement boiling down to a "Let's fight to the death to determine who is right."

1v1 me bro

No, I want you to admit that using fighter coordination teams to boost BWings is far better than making other squads faster.

I want you to admit that your posts on this page are flawed.

I want you to stop trying to find an easy way out of admitting you are wrong.

Hey look, a picture of you when I admit those things:853844.jpg

I'm not in the habit of admitting things I don't believe. B-Wings are too inflexible and too dependent on what your opponent brings to the table.

Want to play on Vassal and find out?

Is this going to be a thing now? Every disagreement boiling down to a "Let's fight to the death to determine who is right."

God I hope so, but they'll probably just play armada on vassal.

This is all I see right now....

25943736.jpg

Hahahaha, I am just saying that if he wants to say that B-Wings are bad on the table that he should prove it in a game against me.

I don't know that he's saying that they're bad... Just that they have significant limitations. And there likely are lists that they may have a hard time with.

And they do.

However... They can be completely amazeballs when used well. My guess is that AllWings hasn't run into a really skilled opponent with them.

But having played several games where my bwings tore through firesprays... I'd argue that firesprays have a similar set of limitations.

1v1 me bro

B-wings are great. I often use 3-4 and If you have Yavaris and/or Tallon you get an extra punch from them. Sadly they are slow. You can either play slow and plodding letting the enemy come to you but have the B-wings out in front to meet them as they do. Or you can invest in Independence MC80 to get them a turn one slingshot to get into position. With Wave 4 out now the fighter co-ordination teams are an excellent way of getting B-wing into the fight so I am ditching the Independence upgrade for FCTs and I can give them to Yavaris too.

Anyway the above is only if you have plenty of B-Wings and intend to design a fleet around them. If you only have one pack then a couple of B-Wings with FCTs on Yavaris will do fine. Support them with some X-wings and Jan to keep them from being tied down in dogfights. If you have the points Wedge and Dutch make a nice combo together especially if Yavaris is close by.

MADCAT... Oh Boy Oh Pal... I might Luv Ya Brah... you think like I do.

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B-WINGS reporting for duty!!!

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Sidestepping the B-Wing vs Firespray argument (which in a thread entitled "Rebel Squadrons" is slightly missing the point), lets compare the B-Wing to the more similar Scrugg. I contemplated these when designing my regionals list.

MC80c+Independence+Tallon. Yavaris+Ray. CR90b. 4xB-wing, X-wing Wedge, Dutch, Han.

I contemplated 4 B-Wings + Independence or 4 Scruggs without Independence for the same cost.

The Scruggs were speed 3 which over 2 turns is about the same speed as the B-Wings (using speed 4 on turn one). They also have an extra hit point and grit. On the down side they loose a blue anti squadron dice and have heavy so you can't use them to tie up enemy squadrons.

I eventually took B-Wings + Independence and was glad I did. I often used the B-wings in squadron combat sticking close to Yavaris and double tapping occasionally though I would rather do this with Wedge or Dutch. If I had Jan in the list (big mistake, Han is nice but really I needed Intel) the B-wings would have skipped the dogfighting more often but I really liked to get rid of enemy Dengar/Jan/Rhymer targets and the dual role of the B-wing helped in this. Once the enemy intel was dead a single wounded B-Wing could hold down 3 Tie bombers for several crucial turns.

Later in the games Independence with Tallon also allowed one B-Wing to get a speed 4 move but no shot, but then Tallon switches it to unactivated and it gets a shot in the squadron phase. This was great at chasing down a wounded MC30 that I thought I would never catch. I once did it with Han getting it a speed 7 move and shoot opportunity followed by another shot in the Han phase of next turn. I still think I will ditch independence for Fighter Coordination Teams but I may miss being able to do these mid game speed 4 repositions even if engaged (I have added Jan).

Oh boy, a 1v1 challenge from Lyraeus for Vassal! How could I say "no" to that lose-lose scenario?!

If I win, I have to deal with a potentionally rage-complaining Lyr offering a ton of reasons and explanations as to why it happened but shouldn't have. Or else I lose and have to endure the gloating. Neither seem worth spending three hours.

Just do a game with someone else that is Vassal savy and willing to spare the time:

Have them play something like a basicTRC Mothma Swarm, with 2400s sprinkled to taste. This is the sort of match-up that makes B-Wings a big liability.



Just ignore squadrons altogether and blow up their ships and you win. Squadrons are a waste!