With the Liberty coming out, we might see the return of HTTs. With their double brace and redirect, if you can get a decent shot into a side arc where they'll want to brace and redirect to their sizeable shields in their front arc, they'll be foiled by HTTs. (Speculation to follow now) If people start taking HTTs on their ISDs and MC80s to foil Liberties, XI7s will become less ubiquitous, and Advanced Projectors will make a comeback. Possibly. ECM is still really good.
Return of HTTs and Advanced Projectors?
Advanced projectors are amazing against demo. I never stopped playing them.
The essential problem with AP still hasn't been fixed, though:
There exists a card in common use (XI7) that completely neuters AP.
There is no such card for ECM.
In a vacuum, the value of the two is pretty equivalent, just for different situations. So, when list-building, do you take the one that has a hard counter, or the one that doesn't?
This is why the AP/XI7 ruling is terrible and needs to be reversed. Oh god why have I brought this up again...?
Edit: Tirion's right, though. If your meta is all Demo all the time, AP is the better choice for some ships.
Edited by ArdaedhelWhich lets be honest most metas are extremely demo heavy
The essential problem with AP still hasn't been fixed, though:
There exists a card in common use (XI7) that completely neuters AP.
There is no such card for ECM.
In a vacuum, the value of the two is pretty equivalent, just for different situations. So, when list-building, do you take the one that has a hard counter, or the one that doesn't?
This is why the AP/XI7 ruling is terrible and needs to be reversed. Oh god why have I brought this up again...?
Edit: Tirion's right, though. If your meta is all Demo all the time, AP is the better choice for some ships.
For me, APs will be what MC30s get if Admonition and Lando are already taken ever want to run more than one without Mothma or Rieekan (Sato maybe)? I have found with MC30s, the AP works pretty great with that ship against fighters.
For me I run into far situations where not having ECM would cost me immensely, and rarely do I run into situations where having AP would be such a slam dunk. XI7s mean it is too easy to waste points on AP, whereas I never feel like points are wasted on ECM.
Locally, HTTs are used commonly. More than X17. AP still doesn't see much use. ECM is too good.
When we run MC80s with the double defensive, the second slot is Redundant shields if it is used.
All you have to do is position your AP ship against demo and boom it was worth it.
The essential problem with AP still hasn't been fixed, though:
There exists a card in common use (XI7) that completely neuters AP.
There is no such card for ECM.
In a vacuum, the value of the two is pretty equivalent, just for different situations. So, when list-building, do you take the one that has a hard counter, or the one that doesn't?
This is why the AP/XI7 ruling is terrible and needs to be reversed. Oh god why have I brought this up again...?
Edit: Tirion's right, though. If your meta is all Demo all the time, AP is the better choice for some ships.
Why settle for one? I love to take both ECM and AP on my MC80 Assault Cruiser. Not every ship runs X17 turbolasers so I have yet to find a game where it's not useful, especially against the triple or double tap of a close range attacker.
But it's true that ECM is overall better, if only to secure the use of your Brace. And the lack of defensive retrofit is what makes me wary of the Liberty class MC80.
The essential problem with AP still hasn't been fixed, though:
There exists a card in common use (XI7) that completely neuters AP.
There is no such card for ECM.
In a vacuum, the value of the two is pretty equivalent, just for different situations. So, when list-building, do you take the one that has a hard counter, or the one that doesn't?
This is why the AP/XI7 ruling is terrible and needs to be reversed. Oh god why have I brought this up again...?
Edit: Tirion's right, though. If your meta is all Demo all the time, AP is the better choice for some ships.
This. Very much this.
As long as XI7s are so good and prevalent, AP will remain niche. ECM is still the only real defensive retro.
Re. The Liberty...I'd rather have some XI7 ...brace and redir 1 is not too bad. And I keep the utility of the XI7 vs. HORRIBLE Mc30s and the imperial fleet with all their redirects.
This forum never ceases to amaze me. Debate continuously about demo's domination, but then dismiss a helpful upgrade against it because some other ships will counter it...... Breaking news guys there will always be another ship to counter what your doing. Demo counters ecms *gasp*
Edited by TirionI think the ECM our buddy comes from the spam upgrade mentality. To many people think that if one ship has an upgrade obviously every ship that can and it makes sense on should have that upgrade. You can pigeon whole yourself there. Variety is the spice of life
This forum never ceases to amaze me. Debate continuously about demo's domination, but then dismiss a helpful upgrade against it because some other ships will counter it...... Breaking news guys there will always be another ship to counter what your doing. Demo counters ecms *gasp*
The catch is, AP doesn't counter Demo. It's just better than ECM against it.
Yes, AP on an MC80 or ISD2 is the best chance any ship has to survive Demo. That's not the same thing as countering it. Couple that with how vulnerable the loss of ECM leaves both of those ships in most other scenarios, and it's not often worth replacing ECM with AP.
That said, for Assault Cruisers it's often worth taking both.
This forum never ceases to amaze me. Debate continuously about demo's domination, but then dismiss a helpful upgrade against it because some other ships will counter it...... Breaking news guys there will always be another ship to counter what your doing. Demo counters ecms *gasp*
The catch is, AP doesn't counter Demo. It's just better than ECM against it.
Yes, AP on an MC80 or ISD2 is the best chance any ship has to survive Demo. That's not the same thing as countering it. Couple that with how vulnerable the loss of ECM leaves both of those ships in most other scenarios, and it's not often worth replacing ECM with AP.
That said, for Assault Cruisers it's often worth taking both.
Aye I completely agree, except I specifically never said counter so there's that . And disagree saying that it's not worth replacing. I'm talking about one ship that is placed to go against demo. Not blanketing a fleet with them.
This forum never ceases to amaze me. Debate continuously about demo's domination, but then dismiss a helpful upgrade against it because some other ships will counter it...... Breaking news guys there will always be another ship to counter what your doing. Demo counters ecms *gasp*
The catch is, AP doesn't counter Demo. It's just better than ECM against it.
Yes, AP on an MC80 or ISD2 is the best chance any ship has to survive Demo. That's not the same thing as countering it. Couple that with how vulnerable the loss of ECM leaves both of those ships in most other scenarios, and it's not often worth replacing ECM with AP.
That said, for Assault Cruisers it's often worth taking both.
A loadout that I really love for the Assault Cruiser is Defiance, Lando, Engine Tech, ECM, Advanced Projectors, Leading Shot and X17. It cost 153pts, but with Lando, ECM and AP, it is surprisingly resiliant. Engine Tech helps to dodge arc or keep line of sight, and Defiance, Leading Shot and X17 helps offensively (Defiance allows me to take a blue die at long range to reroll my reds, or a black dice at close/medium range).
I don't think anyone would be surprised by its resilience......
I don't think anyone would be surprised by its resilience......
Well not really, but the MC80 has the reputation of being a ship not very durable for his cost. With this loadout, it can take a real beating and still comes out on top.
Very true! My issue with it is similar to everyone else's issue with the interdictor, it really wants to be a support ship but its to spendy for it
This forum never ceases to amaze me. Debate continuously about demo's domination, but then dismiss a helpful upgrade against it because some other ships will counter it...... Breaking news guys there will always be another ship to counter what your doing. Demo counters ecms *gasp*
The catch is, AP doesn't counter Demo. It's just better than ECM against it.
Yes, AP on an MC80 or ISD2 is the best chance any ship has to survive Demo. That's not the same thing as countering it. Couple that with how vulnerable the loss of ECM leaves both of those ships in most other scenarios, and it's not often worth replacing ECM with AP.
That said, for Assault Cruisers it's often worth taking both.
Aye I completely agree, except I specifically never said counter so there's that .
You are correct, I totally misread that. Carry on!
And disagree saying that it's not worth replacing. I'm talking about one ship that is placed to go against demo. Not blanketing a fleet with them.
An interesting idea. Problem is, AP's not going to save anything smaller than an AF2--and even that will probably die--which means you're spending, what, 80 points on a throwaway? I dunno, I'm not convinced, but I am intrigued...
On the other hand, this line of discussion is kind of obviated anyway as of today (WOO HOO!) by the flotillas' scatter, which does this, only better. We'll see if they can effectively shut down Demo. If not, I might give this approach a shot.
Completely agree this discussion is moot yay! But to continue it 
it is unlikely that a demo will do 36 damage in three attacks in fact it's impossible
Completely agree this discussion is moot yay! But to continue it
Doesn't need to. It needs 3 APT procs and 3 rams (minus however many of those APTs are Structural). A well-flown APT Demo with Screed and ET will do this 70% of the time; OE bumps that up to 90%.
OR
It needs to IO the brace. Which... basically guaranteed, currently. Again, wave 3 may change this, but right now if it ain't IO, it ain't trying.
Arda drops MIC turns and walks away
In hindsight, I probably shouldn't have said anything about APs...
The other thing is a well-timed engineering order can make APs moot for some ships. The reason I stopped taking XI7s is because smart players will shuffle shields to the right place a the right time.
In hindsight, I probably shouldn't have said anything about APs...
I'm so sorry. I broke my personal rule about never commenting on a thread in which AP is mentioned... :/