So now the game has been out a few years I thought it might be fun to discuss some of the things that we didn't like, but(!) I don't mean system wise and I don't mean "oh, the three lines"-wise but more along the following what in the CRB (EotE) didn't work for you?

Least favorite career: Smuggler. Basically only because of semantics... This career should have been called Scoundrel and the Scoundrel spec should have been called the Smuggler. As it stands now we have specs that have nothing to do with smuggling calling that their career.

Least favorite specialization: Fringer. It literally does nothing for me and I have never heard anyone that plays one, likes to play one or even likes he concept.

Least favorite race: Trandoshan. They feel 'off'. I see iconic Trandoshans in the art work, brandishing sniper rifles or out hunting and the species start with a 1 in agility... It just doesn't sit well with with me.

Just a few things I hope get looked at if a second edition come around.

Smuggler is all about smuggling IMO.

I have at least 2 players in 1 of my groups that are Fringers.

Trandoshans are fine. They were always better up close and personal, to put them on par with Wookiees. They just take large guns because in the chance they hit someone, it had better count.

The only thing I can think of off the top of my head that doesn't feel right is that the Improved Bodyguard talent is nowhere to be found on the Hired Gun/Bodyguard specialization. I feel that's a case of a talent that was thought of after the EotE core was finished and subsequently added to the other bodyguard-like specs. Unfortunately, that means one of my players doesn't have a way to take damage for others (which is what he designed his character to do).

Doctor, and mainly because of Pressure Point.

Scout, Talents and Skills headed in different directions.

Don't really fret over races, it all balances out with advancement.

AoR's instructor has talents that apply to Athletics, Coordination, and Resilience. None of those are career skills.

Oh, and Droids. If we can have 5 subspecies of Nikto, then why not the five classes of Droids?

Smuggler is all about smuggling IMO.

I have at least 2 players in 1 of my groups that are Fringers.

Trandoshans are fine. They were always better up close and personal, to put them on par with Wookiees. They just take large guns because in the chance they hit someone, it had better count.

The only thing I can think of off the top of my head that doesn't feel right is that the Improved Bodyguard talent is nowhere to be found on the Hired Gun/Bodyguard specialization. I feel that's a case of a talent that was thought of after the EotE core was finished and subsequently added to the other bodyguard-like specs. Unfortunately, that means one of my players doesn't have a way to take damage for others (which is what he designed his character to do).

Sorry but I wasn't looking to hear why my personal opinion is 'wrong' I was trying to have a bit of fun with a different kind of topic than the ones we usually tackle.

Surprised to hear about that Fringer thing though. I'll give you that!

We had a Fringer in my first game. The player took it because he wasn't sure where he wanted to go with the character. He ended up going Trader and, eventually Scoundrel. Fringer just kinda faded into the overall character, unlike some specs that stand out strongly.

It always struck me as one that should be more of a universal spec, not really a career, more of a background kinda thing.

Like AoR's recruit?! Yeah. I tend to agree.

Least Favourite Rule to Adjudicate: Defense. I personally don't mind the RAW for Defense, but not a session goes by that I don't have to read and re-read it and justify my rulings on it. "Multiple sources of defense do not stack." Well, it's that "sources" line that gets me every time. I don't have to rules lawyer a lot in this game, but for Defense...oy vey.

Least Favourite Species: Playable Hutts. I dread the day when I have to work with a Hutt PC. It will come. And I will die. (Judge's Note: Chevin were the runner-up here.)

Least Favourite Word to Hear in an EotE Game: Lightsaber

Like AoR's recruit?! Yeah. I tend to agree.

Yah. Explorer in general is pretty thin in the CRB, only Trader feels right. I don't disagree with the existence, it's just the execution of the specs I feel is lacking or misplaced.

Fringer is really peculiar – a little sub-tree about Astrogation (by far the least-used skill in our games) and the rest are Talents that make you tougher. It’s not weak per se, but lack s focus and it’s married to the weak-sauce Explorer career (all those Knowledge skills really hurt it). It has Talents like Knockdown that require Triumphs, but no combat skills to get those Triumphs. It’s essentially there for other careers to multiclass – and even then, there are better ‘tough guy’ careers.

Scout is even more egregious than Instructor, with Talents that make use of Stealth, Coordination, Know/Core Worlds and Vigilance, none of which are career skills. The lack of Stealth in particular and any combat skills make it poor for actually scouting. A Spy/Scout fares better, and AoR characters also have access to combat skills via Recruit.

Explorer in general needs a total overhaul – it’s only saving grace is the splatbook careers.

‘Pressure Points’ is fine for a Doctor. It’s less fine when multi-classed with combat characters. (I don’t permit multi-classing in any game I’ve ever ran.)

My main disappointment, in fact, is that there aren’t more Universal specs. I’d have liked Lightsaber talents to be a more general thing, and it would be good to have a general ‘Edge’ career that offered general underworld and surviving-on-the-fringe abilities - sort of like FS-Exile but without the psionics.

I’d have thought that area splatbooks would be the ideal place for new Universal specs that are not tied to a career.

Also, I think there are too many skills that overlap. I’d drop Astrogation, or fold it into Computers or the Knowledges. I’d have one skill for Athletics/Coordination, but use either Brawn or Agility depending on whether it needs muscle or finesse. Same with Know/Underworld and Streetwise with Intellect/Cunning for theoretical and practical applications. Also you could do the same with Perception/Vigilance and Cool/Discipline. The players complain about having to buy multiple skills that do the same thing using different stats.

And to make a serious point about the species – I’d like more balance . If we’re to have three per book, we should have something humanoid, something exotic, and something iconic to keep everyone happy. They seem to be under some directive to only include races from the movies or cartoons, which means we won’t see some classic EU species.

Also... I wouldn’t mind a more streamlined system for vehicle combat. I mostly ignore all their systems and just go with Rule of Cool when starships are involved.

Finally, it may sound picky, but could we have some proper articles again? Some of them used to be okay. Lately they seem to be written by the unpaid intern on his dinner break on the back of a napkin. ‘You should totally mix the RPG with the X-Wing minis!! Um, somehow.’

IMHO: Smuggler is the most overpowered (but also most iconic) career in the game. -Anything- anyone wants to be can be made with nothing more than the Smuggler specs.

Gambler is the most overpowered spec in the game because it really screws with the fundamental statistical model of the game with Second Chances and Double or Nothing.

It always struck me as one that should be more of a universal spec, not really a career, more of a background kinda thing.

Yeah, I can see that with Fringer. Had a few friends play characters with Fringer as their starting career, and most of them never really went anyplace with it, especially once Enter the Unknown came out.

IMHO: Smuggler is the most overpowered (but also most iconic) career in the game. -Anything- anyone wants to be can be made with nothing more than the Smuggler specs.

Gambler is the most overpowered spec in the game because it really screws with the fundamental statistical model of the game with Second Chances and Double or Nothing.

I agree on Gambler. I don't have an issue with Second Chances, but Double or Nothing is just plain broken. I wish I'd been on that playtest because I would've beat the OP drum loud.

So now the game has been out a few years I thought it might be fun to discuss some of the things that we didn't like, but(!) I don't mean system wise and I don't mean "oh, the three lines"-wise but more along the following what in the CRB (EotE) didn't work for you?

Least favorite career: Smuggler. Basically only because of semantics... This career should have been called Scoundrel and the Scoundrel spec should have been called the Smuggler. As it stands now we have specs that have nothing to do with smuggling calling that their career.

Least favorite specialization: Fringer. It literally does nothing for me and I have never heard anyone that plays one, likes to play one or even likes he concept.

Least favorite race: Trandoshan. They feel 'off'. I see iconic Trandoshans in the art work, brandishing sniper rifles or out hunting and the species start with a 1 in agility... It just doesn't sit well with with me.

Just a few things I hope get looked at if a second edition come around.

Smuggler is my favourite career, it really is the most iconic in terms of star wars feel, along with bountyhunter! It should absolutely be a career in a game that wants to simulate the star wars feel... The fringer is one of my favourite specs, just the name feels like a cool spacer and explorer and the game needs an explorer that is an astrogtion Nerd! Trandoshans are iconic and a big part of my campaign plot. ... I didnt get slicers in terms of the fiction at first, but then I remembered Astromech droids. I have never been a fan of near-human species or most species established in the PT, but I am getting used to them, thanks to clone wars,Rebels and this game.

This system is about genre and specific fiction simulation more than meta logic and genreal realism. I like that, but I understand that some might think otherwise and are used to other forms of "making sense".

Please note that my problem with the smuggler is purely semantic. It is the scoundrel career. Charmer? Not a smuggler. Thief? Not a smuggler. Gambler? Not a smuggler. Yet they are all scoundrels.

Yeah, having the Smuggler career named Smuggler never sat right with me, and I agree with Dante that naming it Scoundrel and then calling the Scoundrel spec something else (probably not Smuggler though) would have worked better, especially with Fly Casual's additions to the career making it even more of an underworld-focused knave.

One minor gripe for me regarding the FaD line is that Shii-Cho Knight is a pure melee spec, when there's plenty of evidence to suggest that it should offer at least a single rank of Reflect to account for the blast-deflect training that was part of the Form's core curriculum.

I can see Maelora's point about skill overlap/bloat, as it does seem there's a lot of skills that do very similar things. I've been idly toying around with consolidating the non-combat skills a bit, and it seems that Maelora and I are on a similar train of thought on what could be meshed together, as well as perhaps not tying certain skills so closely with a specific characteristic. After all, Skulduggery covers lock-picking, which could be used with Agility just as easily as with Cunning, and I believe long-time poster whafrog as noted many times about how Piloting(Space) could be used with Intellect for the larger category of ships, generally starting from Silhouette 5 and up.

A couple minor peeves regarding starships, first off being the VCX-100 as listed in Keeping the Peace, as I honestly would have put that as a Silhouette 4 ship and make it's hull trauma and strain thresholds just a bit more robust than the aging YT-1300. Next up is the Ghtroc-720 being saddled with a -2 Handling, when every prior RPG appearance beforehand has this thing being more maneuverable than your stock YT-1300; for my own games, I've bumped the Handling to +0 and dropped the Ghtroc's Armor down to 3, as it was also only moderately tougher than a YT-1300, something the increased hull trauma threshold covers nicely; frankly it feels like the author got stuck on the "turdestine" part of the space turtle, and let that inform their decision in writing the stats as opposed to considering what the ship could do in its prior appearances.

Also not crazy about Besalisks getting a free maneuver for having four arms; with the Xexto it kind of made sense as that species not only had four limbs but a dual-brain thing going on. Frankly I think just permitting them a boost die on checks for Brawn-based skills where multiple hands would be an asset would have worked better for the Besalisks.

Another one is the mess that calculating defense has now become. The answer presented in the FAQ was nice and concise, with the only really needed being a clarification that multiple instances of Defensive and Deflection don't stack, something the Defensive Training talent in FaD already alluded to with its wording. We've been told "it's under review and an update is coming" so long ago that at this point I don't think anyone would pay attention to the "official" answer even if it does come out.

Oh, and one more thing... when are we going to get an updated FAQ/errata? Going by a couple of recent posts over in the AoR forum, HappyDaze is still on a tear about the Sentinel shuttle stats in the AoR being misprinted, and there's a number of minor points of confusion abounding from newer posters that having them addressed in an updated errata/FAQ would be quite helpful.

Skulduggery aggravates my auto-correct.

If the Fringer is a galactic wanderer, drifter or general spacer, it makes more sense for them to not have any key talents. Thematically, you're talking about a character-type that is simply out to explore the galaxy for their own idleness. Their talents make sense for a character who picks up a handful of different abilities and qualities as they go, but they never stick with one thing long enough to really learn the skills, aside from Astrogation.

They have Street Smarts because they live in a very shady society, so they can work their way through things a bit, but only when absolutely necessary, and nowhere near to the degree of a career criminal. They might frequently pilot things, so they have Defensive Driving, but its something they do out of necessity, and not the kind of love and obsession of a Pilot. Dodge, Knockdown, and Jump Up are all things that would be useful in a scrap or bar brawl, but the character isn't the type to get into fights with frequency. Galaxy Mapper and Master Starhopper are abilities they train more than not, because the most consistent work a Fringer can get is as a navigator or a copilot. Durable, Grit, and Toughened are all useful qualities a character in a rough society might build up over time.

Scout's problem is not that they have too many talents, is that it doesn't have enough . At least, more than can be packed into a 4x5 grid. A scout has to be able to do a lot of different things. Scout hits the highlights (combat, vehicle operation, reconnaissance, survival, actual ability to scout out information), but can't super specialize on any one of them. But that does make sense for the concept; the character, to be a Scout, professionally or commercially, has to be able to do a lot of different things, often on their own, that they don't have the ability to commit to a particular field of training, at least not normally.

Please note that my problem with the smuggler is purely semantic. It is the scoundrel career. Charmer? Not a smuggler. Thief? Not a smuggler. Gambler? Not a smuggler. Yet they are all scoundrels.

Bounty Hunter is no different. All it takes to complete a bounty is doing the job (capturing or killing a guy) and any combat spec can do that. My BH character never once took a bounty. It would be different if the talent trees were geared more toward finding, chasing, and subduing people, but as it is the Hired Gun specs are just as good at doing the job, maybe even better in some ways.

Also, I think there are too many skills that overlap. I’d drop Astrogation, or fold it into Computers or the Knowledges.

I agree Astrogation is an odd man out. I wouldn't drop it but it needs(ed) more Talents to increase it's appeal and utility.

Off the top of my head, a Talent to allow it to be used in mass combat checks with space ships. A Talent that allows ranks of it to be used for downgrading stellar phenomenon checks. One that lets a pilot use it for initiative rolls. Stuff like that. As is on its own it's too niche I think.

Aww, Marcy, you just got me liking Astrogation because of the more esoteric aspects it has...

On the whole, I'm actually fairly satisfied with most of the mechanics, although I'll chime in the the Bodyguard could use Improved Body Guard and that the Fringer is a bit listless.

While at first I really didn't understand the split in a bunch of the different skills, I have to admit they've grown on me. The one that struck me as weirdest at first was the Perception/Vigilance split, but now I get it. I still find it hard to explain, but at least I understand it!

But to play the game that's going on here:

Spec: Propagandist. It just feels weird to me, both in terms of theme and mechanics.

Species: Zabrak and Duros, mostly because their species ability seems weak. I've not had either in a game, though, so it's hard to measure.

Mechanic: The steep increase in difficulty and high consequence of failure for modding attachments. I'd much prefer an upgrade for each successive mod and the mod is lost on a Despair.

So now the game has been out a few years I thought it might be fun to discuss some of the things that we didn't like, but(!) I don't mean system wise and I don't mean "oh, the three lines"-wise but more along the following what in the CRB (EotE) didn't work for you?

From a purely core rulebook layout standpoint, two things -

1) The information is occasionally laid out weird, with bits and pieces spread throughout the book, forcing you to page jump around to look stuff up (and I mean more so than any other gaming book). A minor thing, but it's annoying.

2) Not a huge fan of the font. I'm not as in a bad a shape as my co-gm, who is blind as a bat - but some higher contrast between font and the page would be appreciated by my 47 year old eyes.

As far as the actual game mechanics go, the only issue I have with the engine is the vehicle combat isn't that great. I don't mean chases - those are fine - just the actual dogfighting doesn't work for me. Tracking ranges and bennies are a pain and it just feels clunky. That said, none of the three systems have ever done vehicle combat to my satisfaction. So yeah, I just shrug my shoulders and roll with it.

EDIT - Oh, forgot one other aspect of the game engine I don't like: Morality sucks .

I have few complaints. Last night's session was a total riot, and proved once again what a flexible and narratively expressive system it is. We ran the gamut from mischievous uses of Move to make it look like someone else was doing it, to an alley fight against chain-wielding gang members (thugs rolled double triumphs, then the PC rolled double despairs...GM heaven!), to a speeder chase through twisted back streets, to convincing a little old neighbour lady that sneaking around in her neighbour's back yard was for a really good reason...after which she offered him some carrot cake and tea. Whether it was social, investigative, or martial, the dice are wonderful tools.

There are mechanics I won't use though, no matter what I've tried I haven't really changed my opinion on them since the first year:

- If space combat is not a chase, it's clunky and confusing, and it's just irritating to track all the benefits and penalties. I can say it's improved somewhat by removing Speed (and redefining Speed-influencing Talents), but I still think if you want to have a space battle you just need to buckle down, crack out the maps and the grids, and do it the old-fashioned way. A space battle is what it is: an interruption of role-play and a diversion into wargaming. If you just want a space battle as a backdrop, use the mass combat rules and have the outcomes hinge on the PC's chase-based space activities.

- Move still blows. My players have started using it, and if I let them use the normal Move tree they'd be doing ridiculous things in no time.

- If I had a beef with the game in general, it's that once FFG establishes a pattern, they stick to it beyond sensibility. The above two are good examples: if you're offering space battles, create a sensible mechanic rather than trying to shoehorn a hodgepodge into the narrative mechanic. If you're going to offer a Move that spans the relatively minor abilities from the Saga to the relatively godlike powers in the EU, then break your mould and offer more than the constrained 5x4 grid of nodes.

Those are my only real beefs, and they're easy enough to fix. I don't have a problem with the species, though I do think Humans get the best deal. If I wished that, say, Weequay were spec'd like Klatooinians, I'd just play a Klatooinian and call it a Weequay. Or for that matter, if somebody wanted to play a Duro with Human stats...that would be completely fine with me.

Players`skill choices helps you as a gm to see what your players are interested in and what their characters are about. There is a difference between the player who goes for negotiation and the one who goes for charm or leadership.

Personally I have a fascination with hyperspace, hyperdrives and astrogation. There`s just something very star warsy and sci-fi/space oper about it.

And it is fun to figure out creative ways to incorporate skills and player interests in my game, with plot hooks, situations and encounters that would otherwise never happen in my game.

In other games I enjoy very broad skills and abilities, but in this systems I think it works perfect for what it is going for!