Now it is putting a coke label on a bottle of sprite.

Nothing! You can't cross a Vector and a Scalar! *bu-dum ching*

Horrible, I know. Okay, I'll stop now...

That made my evening.

Unfortunately I just had to spend the last five minutes trying to explain it to my little sister, who wanted to know what I was laughing at so hard.

Nothing! You can't cross a Vector and a Scalar! *bu-dum ching*

Horrible, I know. Okay, I'll stop now...

Nothing! You can't cross a Vector and a Scalar! *bu-dum ching*

Horrible, I know. Okay, I'll stop now...

That's why I cross my i's and dot my t's

I can't claim that joke as mine, I got it from Numberphile, but I'm glad at least some people liked it .

Are you basically saying that the game line needs metaplot? Specifically, metaplot beyond what can be utilized from the massive amounts of Star Wars materials out there?

No. I'm saying I need to find the correct hook (and/or over arching theme) for me. Theme is maybe better word than metaplot in this matter, from my point of view. (And to be clear, I don't see this actual fault in system, I see it at slight imcompatability between me and this game.) Maybe I should read all Legends material for ideas. I'm actually not very familiar with Star Wars material. I have seen OT many times, PT couple of times and TFA three times. I also have read all SW comics (only few) that are available in local library, but I'm still quite n00b when it comes to SW lore.

Few exaggerations about themes of FFG SW game lines, to highlight how I see their negative aspects. EotE (my favourite line) is kind of "living in underworld at the empires shadow with guns and commlinks". AoR is "fighting the oppression (and winning) with guns and commlinks". FaD is "good guys win". Force and destiny is my least favourite game line in FFG SW, because of two reasons: 1) I have never liked jedis very much, and 2) we sometimes like to play bad guys, and basic assumption about FaD is that everyone is good guy, and bad guys always lose (going dark side contain mostly adverse effects. There is no actual insentive to go dark side in long term.). Dark side being inferior can easily be fixed with few house rules, but I don't like house rules (this is a defence reaction coming from system which needed lots of house rules. I loved SLA ind world, but hated the system.) Currently, with EotE (our primary SW game), we don't need a single house rule and I love it. Need to few will probably rise when we play more, but I'd like to minimize the number. And just to be perfectly clear, those are NOT how I actually see those games.

And just to be perfectly clear, those are NOT how I actually see those games.

If you want feedback, why not try starting with how you actually see the games. Then we can have a conversation.

So, I don’t know a whole lot of SW lore myself. I never read any of the novelizations that have since been declared to be Legends material. I’ve heard a bit about them, through this forum and Wookieepedia, but that’s about as far as I had gone.

More recently, I am starting to read more SW graphic novels on my iPad, some older now-Legends material and some more recent and Disney/LFL-Canon.

That said, I think FFG has done a really good job of avoiding most of the pitfalls and traps that previous SWRP games have done. Being a force-user in this game is NOT an auto-win, and it does NOT mean that you are a Jedi.

Being a powerful force-user in this game takes a lot of XP, and makes you a pretty big target.

IMO, FFG has done a really good job of delivering fairly balanced tools and rules to the GMs and the players, and it’s up to you what type of story you want to tell. If you want to be evil dark-side force users, then you should be able to do it — all it takes is agreement from the GM and the players, plus the right mindset to make it happen.

Now, the adventures that FFG delivers don’t tend to go that direction. But the game mechanics are there, and there’s plenty of source material from older novelizations, game material from WEG or WotC, or whatever.

IMO, FFG has done a really good job of delivering fairly balanced tools and rules to the GMs and the players, and it’s up to you what type of story you want to tell. If you want to be evil dark-side force users, then you should be able to do it — all it takes is agreement from the GM and the players, plus the right mindset to make it happen.

Now, the adventures that FFG delivers don’t tend to go that direction. But the game mechanics are there, and there’s plenty of source material from older novelizations, game material from WEG or WotC, or whatever.

A FaD Dark Side PC adventure would be awesome, amazing, incredible. I really really hope they do that, it would be very unique and hopefully highlight the exceptional breadth of this system.

A high XP adventure would be good too, but i find that less likely, i think an epic campaign is much more likely, from beginner to 600+ xp with an epilog to 800+

Are you basically saying that the game line needs metaplot? Specifically, metaplot beyond what can be utilized from the massive amounts of Star Wars materials out there?

No. I'm saying I need to find the correct hook (and/or over arching theme) for me. Theme is maybe better word than metaplot in this matter, from my point of view. (And to be clear, I don't see this actual fault in system, I see it at slight imcompatability between me and this game.) Maybe I should read all Legends material for ideas.

There is no theme but what you make. If you toss out Obligation, Duty, and Morality, you're left with a fun fast paced sci fi fantasy ruleset that can be used in any situation. Personally I like Obligation, at least for chargen, then I completely throw it away. The hook is your story, not the setting. The setting is just a backdrop for your hook/story.

As for SW knowledge, I don't think you need to know any more about the SW universe to enjoy the game. My players barely know what a Hutt is, if I have to introduce a Rodian it's "like the guy who tried to kill Han Solo...Han Solo? The smuggler guy who saves the day at the Death Star? Fuzzy companion? Yeah, him" <eyeroll>. But they still have a ball...or at least they keep showing up. I'm a total SW fanatic compared to them, but I think most of the Legends material blows chunks...you won't find much inspiration there. Honestly, the simplest plot (bad people are taking our stuff) can be milked for hours and hours of sessions, so long as the NPCs are interesting and the action is fast-paced.

And just to be perfectly clear, those are NOT how I actually see those games.

If you want feedback, why not try starting with how you actually see the games. Then we can have a conversation.

If that ever becomes a real problem, I will. Because of this thread I already found one large problem, related to this matter, from my GMing skills, and now I will tackle that. I love these forums.

That said, I think FFG has done a really good job of avoiding most of the pitfalls and traps that previous SWRP games have done. Being a force-user in this game is NOT an auto-win, and it does NOT mean that you are a Jedi.

Being a powerful force-user in this game takes a lot of XP, and makes you a pretty big target.

IMO, FFG has done a really good job of delivering fairly balanced tools and rules to the GMs and the players, and it’s up to you what type of story you want to tell.

Quoted for truth. I originally got into SW RPG (in this spring), because I wanted to GM a space/scifi RPG which is alive. I had my reservations towards FFG SW, but I took the risk, bought core book and fell in love. None of my fears actualized.

Now I'm thinking about force user who embraces dark side. Does he get any real benefits, or does he only get impediments when compared to light side user? What is the actual lure of dark side? And now I'm speaking about Force and Destiny line, because I don't yet own FaD core book, but I have heard there were some changes when compared to e.g. EotE.

There is no theme but what you make. If you toss out Obligation, Duty, and Morality, you're left with a fun fast paced sci fi fantasy ruleset that can be used in any situation. Personally I like Obligation, at least for chargen, then I completely throw it away. The hook is your story, not the setting. The setting is just a backdrop for your hook/story.

As for SW knowledge, I don't think you need to know any more about the SW universe to enjoy the game. My players barely know what a Hutt is, if I have to introduce a Rodian it's "like the guy who tried to kill Han Solo...Han Solo? The smuggler guy who saves the day at the Death Star? Fuzzy companion? Yeah, him" <eyeroll>. But they still have a ball...or at least they keep showing up. I'm a total SW fanatic compared to them, but I think most of the Legends material blows chunks...you won't find much inspiration there. Honestly, the simplest plot (bad people are taking our stuff) can be milked for hours and hours of sessions, so long as the NPCs are interesting and the action is fast-paced.

As A GM, I think I need to know the world so much better than I now do. I have a kind of problem, that I need a lot of background material to be able to GM well. Also, I'm not actually very good GM, and making really interesting NPCs and playing them is not my strong suite.

I really love the obligation mechanic, and I'dd never toss it. Also, my players like it very much.

Quoted for truth. I originally got into SW RPG (in this spring), because I wanted to GM a space/scifi RPG which is alive. I had my reservations towards FFG SW, but I took the risk, bought core book and fell in love. None of my fears actualized.

Now I'm thinking about force user who embraces dark side. Does he get any real benefits, or does he only get impediments when compared to light side user? What is the actual lure of dark side? And now I'm speaking about Force and Destiny line, because I don't yet own FaD core book, but I have heard there were some changes when compared to e.g. EotE.

Firstly, dark side users get to use dark side pips to power force abilities rather than light side ones (essentially, the rules for dark and light side pips are swapped). Although a force die has the same number of dark and light side pips on it, since there are more sides with dark side pips, this is arguably superior.

Furthermore, dark side users have their wound threshold increased and their strain threshold decreased, which may or may not be a good tradeoff but certainly has its advantages.

Lastly, since conflict doesn't bother them, they can freely use force powers like harm or unleash that generate conflict.

I find the game to be overall pretty balanced I think all of the base careeres are good with a good GM. If everyone is playing diplomats and traders and a mechanic and pilot then the game should have a different feel then if you have 2 bounty hunters a hired gun a doctor and a sharpshooter. Designing your game around the players or not doing that is pretty much why I think people get frustrated with specs.

When people say astrogate isn't used much, thats a GM choice you don't have your characters looking for a new and more efficient hyperspace route. You don't have them tracking down a lost ship from nav data. You don't have them doing pure exploring and finding an uncontacted and rich in resources world. So many things are possible you just have to tailor your game to the players.

The things that bother me in the game are (ranged concussion), 151+ crit death with far too many ways to get + to that roll, and vehicle weapons interacting with people and people weapons interacting with vehicles. Some of the crafting stuff needs to be managed as I mentioned in previous posts in system. Ship combat really needs to be clearer and more involved. Some previous templates need to be revised with new talents that make sense added to them.

Firstly, dark side users get to use dark side pips to power force abilities rather than light side ones (essentially, the rules for dark and light side pips are swapped). Although a force die has the same number of dark and light side pips on it, since there are more sides with dark side pips, this is arguably superior.

Actually, I think that it is higher change to roll one dark side pip, than any lightside. There are 5/12 change to roll a lightside result, and 7/12 change to roll a dark side result. Change to roll 1 lightside pip is 2/12, two lightside pips is 3/12, one darkside pip is 6/12, two darkside pips is 1/12. So IMO, lightside is stronger, but darkside is easier (at lower levels). Fitting and probably fairly balanced.

Furthermore, dark side users have their wound threshold increased and their strain threshold decreased, which may or may not be a good tradeoff but certainly has its advantages.

Lastly, since conflict doesn't bother them, they can freely use force powers like harm or unleash that generate conflict.

I'd probably make is so that conflict (or actually lack of it) would affect dark side users. Because I like symmetry and it might be cool to have sith do nasty things to gain conflict, as jedi tries to avoid it.

But anyway, thank you. Your explanation was demonstrative and maybe made me like Force and Destiny a little bit more. (Yes, I'll buy it at some point of autumn)

Actually, dark side Force-users still work with Conflict normally. If they don't keep on doing the nasty stuff, sooner or later their Morality will rise. Thankfully, they usually have no problem being dastardly.

The main lure of the dark side is that most often a roll of multiple force dice will include a mix of Light and Dark pips. A Player will also usually have a way to use every pip, so they need to decide between "smaller effect but only Light Side" or "bigger effect but use both sides of the force"

This is even worse at FR 1 because the choice when dark side is rolled- 7/12ths or the time- "do I do nothing for the third turn in a row? Or use the Dark Side?"

Then there is the whole "combat and killing is usually the easiest solution to a problem"

Then there is the whole "combat and killing is usually the easiest solution to a problem"

Not to mention lying or seizing the property of others (for personal gain), threats of violence or other implied harm (for purposes other than de-escalation of confrontations) , and even inaction leading to bad things happening to others.