What the game needs is a counter Palpatine card in Yoda, Jabba. Both need abilities that give them disctinct advantages as well so the game will be balanced.

Palp is creating an out of balance meta overall and I hope they release Yoda and Jabba soon.

no, it does not need a counter card.

You should NEVER release a card with the intent to counter a specific card. Autos counter turrets as a whole, for example, not any particular one and even still its only a minor counter as they can still function. Any counter to palp that is actually considered a "counter" would completely negate him. Any "counter" would either literally only affect him, which would be utter bs from any standpoint, or worse yet takes his throne because it debunks palp AND does other things if palp isnt around

A counter to palp is forcing him to use it unfavorably. Seismic torpedos!!! You sure you want soontir to take that crit he cant dodge...? Or you wanna palp it?

I think it's humorous to see all these ideas for a better Palp Aces. I'm not immune either: I started weighing the costs and benefits of ST-321 Palp shuttle with Colonel Jendon to support Darth Vader, but the prospects don't look great - it's 4 points more expensive than the current Sensor Jammer Omicron Palp shuttle.

But as for an Ace-free meta, I agree that we'll see lots of Crack swarms and Torp Scouts. However, this does present an amazing and tantalizing opportunity: bombers. A wing of Proton Bomb-toting ships can really scare a crack swarm. You turn away on the first round of combat, and they'll be a bit hesitant to pursue. Torp Scouts won't mind so much. Thermal Detonators/Ion Bombs combo would be amazing against Torp Scouts. But how can you have so many bombs? K-wings and TIE punishers, man! It's like Wave VII Strikes Back!

BMST is just another very nice anti-ace tool. It's even more anti Corran if you build for it. This I like. Aces won't be going anywhere though. Captain Yorr and Vader are still excellent as most have mentioned.

What if questions are fun, so what if arc-dodging aces were rare?

These ships could become way more common:

> double Ghost (it did just place 2nd at Gencon)(Ghost is the new Rebel B-wing)

> TLT Y-wings with Vectored Thrusters (barrel roll on a ship that wants range control is excellent)

> Brobots or maybe combos with IG-88D crew

> munitions Tie Bombers or Z-95's

> even more Defenders

Ships that won't come back even if arc-dodgers were rare:

> B-wing (the ghost does everything it can do better)

> T-65 X-wing (same issue as the B-wing)

> Syck, Kihraxz, Starviper, Protectorate (Scum large base ships are flat out better)

Forget BMST for a minute.

No one seems to be talking about those new debris templates. Fart one of these out on soontir or any other ace while they are in your back pocket. They take the stress, take their roll, reveal their maneuver, which is likely going to cross the template again(because its huge), take a second stress and another dice roll, and if they revealed a red, you are going to adjust their dial.

Im not sure why so many are talking about BMST. As soon as i have two templates, this is likely replacing BMST already on my bots list, and i have only been playing BMST on my bots list since the gencon reveal.

Unless you get rid of Palpatine, you will never make PTL aces not worth flying. Especially once the Upsilon comes out and Soontir can use its Co-Ordinate action to get 3 actions stress free and still trigger his ability.

Couple issues with that. First, soontir DOES still end up stressed for anyone between the ps of the upsilon pilot used and when soontir moves. So ps1 z95s work, but other ships with slicer tools can.

Second, it makes soontir way less good at arcdodging anything that moves after the shuttle if 2 of his actions come before they move, so all he can do on his normal action is boost OR barrel roll instead of both, and that assuming he didnt already use

One or both from the coordinate action

BMST is just another very nice anti-ace tool. It's even more anti Corran if you build for it. This I like. Aces won't be going anywhere though. Captain Yorr and Vader are still excellent as most have mentioned.

What if questions are fun, so what if arc-dodging aces were rare?

These ships could become way more common:

> double Ghost (it did just place 2nd at Gencon)(Ghost is the new Rebel B-wing)

> TLT Y-wings with Vectored Thrusters (barrel roll on a ship that wants range control is excellent)

> Brobots or maybe combos with IG-88D crew

> munitions Tie Bombers or Z-95's

> even more Defenders

Ships that won't come back even if arc-dodgers were rare:

> B-wing (the ghost does everything it can do better)

> T-65 X-wing (same issue as the B-wing)

> Syck, Kihraxz, Starviper, Protectorate (Scum large base ships are flat out better)

Bwing vs ghost isnt as cut and dried as you make it out to be. Bbbbz has 36 health to the 40 you get with 2 ghosts and a ywing, and throws 14 red dice to the 10 you get from the ywings. Against high agility ships the ghosts and ywing with autoblasters are better since you can get guaranteed damage, against low agility Id prefer the bwings. Bbbbz vs 2 ghost ywing Id bet on the bwings

I'd be most excited about the PS race dying down a bit. If you can still damage an ace without out PS'ing them, then a lot more lower PS aces start to look better.

It will be interesting to see how this and the extreme jousting Protectorate fighters vs Uboats changes the list make ups out there.

Neither the kihrakz nor the t-65 are particularly efficient jousters.

You just get more crackswarms, bbbbz, and brobots.

I was under the impression that the T-65 was about the same efficiency as the B-wing after IA. Is this not the case?

the problem is the b wing sucks compared to black crack bud

and still has repositioning where the t65 has none

Forget BMST for a minute.

No one seems to be talking about those new debris templates. Fart one of these out on soontir or any other ace while they are in your back pocket. They take the stress, take their roll, reveal their maneuver, which is likely going to cross the template again(because its huge), take a second stress and another dice roll, and if they revealed a red, you are going to adjust their dial.

Im not sure why so many are talking about BMST. As soon as i have two templates, this is likely replacing BMST already on my bots list, and i have only been playing BMST on my bots list since the gencon reveal.

A big limiting factor on those will be the large ship only text, but yeah. Dropping a token on an ace so that they have to cross it should doublestress, which is a disaster for any ace we know, other than Tycho I guess.

Black markets won't destroy the ptl aces lists,especially with quickdraw and baffles double tap coming in St the same time.

Black markets won't destroy the ptl aces lists,especially with quickdraw and baffles double tap coming in at the same time.

I love hearing about all the extra ships you can take that will then make Soontir still viable. What I see is spending even more points on Soontir Fel and having some more requirements of range that he needs to be in for some other support ship to make him work. It says to me that you are making too much of a synergy chain that won't work overall. You are spending too much effort to make one guy work. It would be easier to just find another ship that works better. You either get too limited due to the support ships or you lose the support ships and lose Soontir.

These ships could become way more common:

> double Ghost (it did just place 2nd at Gencon)(Ghost is the new Rebel B-wing)

> TLT Y-wings with Vectored Thrusters (barrel roll on a ship that wants range control is excellent)

> Brobots or maybe combos with IG-88D crew

> munitions Tie Bombers or Z-95's

> even more Defenders

Ships that won't come back even if arc-dodgers were rare:

> B-wing (the ghost does everything it can do better)

> T-65 X-wing (same issue as the B-wing)

> Syck, Kihraxz, Starviper, Protectorate (Scum large base ships are flat out better)

I do agree that ordnance carriers will become a thing, especially PS 4+ versions. If you are able to blast one U-boat before it can fire, you should be able to win the match. There are a number of ways to do it, but some cheap ships with ordnance are definitely a way to do it.

As for Tie Formations, you can use a number of things, such as Assault Missiles or Ion Torpedoes to disrupt their formation from a distance...as well as deal some damage. If you are firing before PS 3, then you might be able to take out a bunch of Black Squadies before they fire, as well.

So, you don't think the old jousters will ever come back? You think the swarms are too much and ordnance carriers are too much? I wonder if we start to see something like mixed lists. Instead of spamming BBBBZ or XXXXZ or KKKKK, maybe we start to see maybe one elite T-65 with a number of cheap ordnance carriers. Or a XBZZ list. Something like that. You don't think that one or two Assault Missiles or Ion Torpedoes can handle things like Crack Swarm? Or U-boats? I think they could.

Forget BMST for a minute.

No one seems to be talking about those new debris templates. Fart one of these out on soontir or any other ace while they are in your back pocket. They take the stress, take their roll, reveal their maneuver, which is likely going to cross the template again(because its huge), take a second stress and another dice roll, and if they revealed a red, you are going to adjust their dial.

Im not sure why so many are talking about BMST. As soon as i have two templates, this is likely replacing BMST already on my bots list, and i have only been playing BMST on my bots list since the gencon reveal.

Well, BMST is the most obvious PTL Ace counter and is the easiest to use. I utterly agree that it's not the only one. Combined with a number of things in the latest wave...and things in past waves...I see PTL Aces having a harder time. I'm very happy for this.

"Aces" are just cool. Top Gun was not a movie about PS2!

I think we will see certain aces more; specifically, aces with an extra action or a sensor slot so the can ditch PTL stress with a green. Corran will get more play; Vader will be unchanged; Soontir might get Crack Shot, Predator, or Juke.

I question the point of Soontir if he's not stressing himself. Might as well take Carnor with VI or Adaptability.

So, you don't think the old jousters will ever come back? You think the swarms are too much and ordnance carriers are too much? I wonder if we start to see something like mixed lists. Instead of spamming BBBBZ or XXXXZ or KKKKK, maybe we start to see maybe one elite T-65 with a number of cheap ordnance carriers. Or a XBZZ list. Something like that. You don't think that one or two Assault Missiles or Ion Torpedoes can handle things like Crack Swarm? Or U-boats? I think they could.

I don't think we'll ever see the end of spam. At the top you don't get spam because mixed lists are more powerful but they're also more mentally taxing. For a lot of people making a list require as little brainpower as possible is very appealing when you're playing countless back to back matches in a tournament.

I do agree that ordnance carriers will become a thing, especially PS 4+ versions. If you are able to blast one U-boat before it can fire, you should be able to win the match. There are a number of ways to do it, but some cheap ships with ordnance are definitely a way to do it.

As for Tie Formations, you can use a number of things, such as Assault Missiles or Ion Torpedoes to disrupt their formation from a distance...as well as deal some damage. If you are firing before PS 3, then you might be able to take out a bunch of Black Squadies before they fire, as well.

So, you don't think the old jousters will ever come back? You think the swarms are too much and ordnance carriers are too much? I wonder if we start to see something like mixed lists. Instead of spamming BBBBZ or XXXXZ or KKKKK, maybe we start to see maybe one elite T-65 with a number of cheap ordnance carriers. Or a XBZZ list. Something like that. You don't think that one or two Assault Missiles or Ion Torpedoes can handle things like Crack Swarm? Or U-boats? I think they could.

Well, BMST is the most obvious PTL Ace counter and is the easiest to use. I utterly agree that it's not the only one. Combined with a number of things in the latest wave...and things in past waves...I see PTL Aces having a harder time. I'm very happy for this.

Alpha strike is a viable strategy nowadays. Likely one that the meta hasn't fully explored. Missile Bossk and Cluster Suhlak are very potent builds.

I wouldn't think Ion Torps or Assault missiles will ever be common. Swarms will always be in the minority because of the effort they take.

Yes, the old Rebel jouster generics are all dead. TLT Y-wings killed them even before wave 8. Swarms and ordnance are simply better too. Named T-65 X-wings can be viable as was just shown at Gen Con. This is purely because some have excellent pilot abilities.

Thank goodness there are many Ace counters nowadays. It takes the whole spectrum to combat them. The biggest question you always have to answer while list building is, Can this kill token stacked 3-agility?

Yes, the old Rebel jouster generics are all dead. TLT Y-wings killed them even before wave 8. Swarms and ordnance are simply better too. Named T-65 X-wings can be viable as was just shown at Gen Con. This is purely because some have excellent pilot abilities.

Thank goodness there are many Ace counters nowadays. It takes the whole spectrum to combat them. The biggest question you always have to answer while list building is, Can this kill token stacked 3-agility?

I think Jousters were dead before TLT's, but those did put the last nails in the coffin.

I utterly agree that the biggest question you face is if your list can kill a token stacked Soontir Fel. Otherwise, you will lose.

That's why I think the whole game opens up if you don't see Soontir Fel or other PTL Aces in 90% of your lists.

What I think would work in a list without PTL Aces is a list that had a little bit of everything. Maybe one non-PTL Aces (or heavy hitter), combined with one or three cheap generics (possibly with ordnance), and then some mid level guy.

What I predict will happen:

- I expect to BMST to appear depending on the local meta. 2 X Z-95s are good blockers, users of BMST and can use their main firepower to attack the shuttle. Previously, it was always a dilema as to whether to focus on the shuttle or Ace, now you can do both.

- As it becomes riskier to take PTL on weak hull aces, combos such as the Inquisitor and Soontir will fade. Both will still be around, but most likely paired with another ace that may not rely on stress or has more hull.

- Many players will flocks to defenders as a reflex, but those have a PS of 8 or lower (usually). This will open the scum towards upgrading or using PS9 without making a PS bid (I always felt as though that was a waste, but now it could make sense).

- Fenn will appear. He will be combined with other hard hitters (who will be expendable) so that he can reach the end game.

- Latts Razi (crew) will be seriously underated until people find a way to make her work.

- Someone will develop a Ketsuo tractor beam alpha strike before long (1 tractor beam token from her ability, the second from her attack... goodbye Dengaroo).

Those are my 2 cent predictions

What I predict will happen:

- I expect to BMST to appear depending on the local meta. 2 X Z-95s are good blockers, users of BMST and can use their main firepower to attack the shuttle. Previously, it was always a dilema as to whether to focus on the shuttle or Ace, now you can do both.

- As it becomes riskier to take PTL on weak hull aces, combos such as the Inquisitor and Soontir will fade. Both will still be around, but most likely paired with another ace that may not rely on stress or has more hull.

- Many players will flocks to defenders as a reflex, but those have a PS of 8 or lower (usually). This will open the scum towards upgrading or using PS9 without making a PS bid (I always felt as though that was a waste, but now it could make sense).

- Fenn will appear. He will be combined with other hard hitters (who will be expendable) so that he can reach the end game.

- Latts Razi (crew) will be seriously underated until people find a way to make her work.

- Someone will develop a Ketsuo tractor beam alpha strike before long (1 tractor beam token from her ability, the second from her attack... goodbye Dengaroo).

Those are my 2 cent predictions

I cant wait to pair Ketsu with 88c. Shadow caster cant get here soon enough.

Well thanks to vectored thrusters I think the boost-barrel roll combination will be much more common. Although barrel roll is more common than boost. There is only a few ships with boost that doesn't have barrel roll.

Fly more defenders, or use Fel less (though, he was already falling out of favour since the Inquisitor and Omega Leader came on scene...). That, or it might be worth it to simply run something other than stealth device.

For what it's worthy, not that I have a stake in it or really care about the competitive meta, but personally I think the game is supposed and should be about dog fighting, so PTL Aces fit into that scheme perfectly and any effort to knock arc dodging/dog fights out of the game, in fact every piece of equipment and ship added to the game that supports a game where arcs can be ignored is effectively broken. TLT's for example were horrible for the game, it turned the entire game into a round robin circle jerk with 50% of the people running TLT lists and the other 50% trying to figure out how to work around the TLT meta with counter-cheese. Tournaments during this period where as boring to play as they were to watch.

At this point within X-Wing there is a great game if you avoid the boring meta lists and competitive play, but watching competitive players at this point is such a yawn fest where the only thing that is really relevant is dice statics and dice manipulation. The only maneuvering/movement for requirement for most lists is to get your ship into shooting range. In recent years at local tournaments, people looked at each others list, shook hands and declared a winner and looser, matches weren't even played because everyone knows it's largely a formality after lists are revealed. And if you refused you were considered a "****" for making your opponent go through the motions of a match that was already determined by comparing lists. It was ugly.

I don't want to kill PTL aces outright, but increasing the variety of options we see, and keeping a variety of ships and generics viable is important.

I can see two house rules worth experimenting with for casual games:

(1) Limit lists to one unique pilot per list, to encourage "single ace plus support" play.

or

(2) Treat all EPT, crew, and droid upgrade cards that have a cost of 1 or more as unique (exception made for Attani Mindlink). So you can have a PTL ace, but you can't have multiple PTL aces in a list.

For what it's worthy, not that I have a stake in it or really care about the competitive meta, but personally I think the game is supposed and should be about dog fighting, so PTL Aces fit into that scheme perfectly and any effort to knock arc dodging/dog fights out of the game, in fact every piece of equipment and ship added to the game that supports a game where arcs can be ignored is effectively broken. TLT's for example were horrible for the game, it turned the entire game into a round robin circle jerk with 50% of the people running TLT lists and the other 50% trying to figure out how to work around the TLT meta with counter-cheese. Tournaments during this period where as boring to play as they were to watch.

At this point within X-Wing there is a great game if you avoid the boring meta lists and competitive play, but watching competitive players at this point is such a yawn fest where the only thing that is really relevant is dice statics and dice manipulation. The only maneuvering/movement for requirement for most lists is to get your ship into shooting range. In recent years at local tournaments, people looked at each others list, shook hands and declared a winner and looser, matches weren't even played because everyone knows it's largely a formality after lists are revealed. And if you refused you were considered a "****" for making your opponent go through the motions of a match that was already determined by comparing lists. It was ugly.

I don't want to kill PTL aces outright, but increasing the variety of options we see, and keeping a variety of ships and generics viable is important.

I can see two house rules worth experimenting with for casual games:

(1) Limit lists to one unique pilot per list, to encourage "single ace plus support" play.

or

(2) Treat all EPT, crew, and droid upgrade cards that have a cost of 1 or more as unique (exception made for Attani Mindlink). So you can have a PTL ace, but you can't have multiple PTL aces in a list.

Being able to boost and barrel roll at a higher PS than their ship is not dog fighting, and it ignores maneuver dials because you don't really have to predict your opponent that well.

BBBBZ or XXXXZ or a TIE Swarm or whatever? Now that's a dog fighting list. You know, one that has to actually play the game and not just fly like a reckless idiot by throwing your aces into bad positions and having your dice mods bail you out.

Also, off you made stuff that costed 1 or more point unique, it would do nothing to stop my Vessery Inquisitor OGP Palp Aces list.

First we got the bizarrely underpriced and over done U-boat to shut down the Rebels. I'm still having a hard time forgiving FFG for this misstep. Challenge the Rebel regen/stress sure. Kill it completely? Not too smart.

Now we are getting a similar, but weaker, counter to Imperial PTL Aces.

Where exactly is FFG driving the game? Honestly I can't see it. Are we meant to bow down and welcome our new Scum overlords? Are we going to see the same sort of jump in power for Rebels and the Empire in future waves?

Argh! The sky is falling!

Seriously though, where is the game going?

First we got the bizarrely underpriced and over done U-boat to shut down the Rebels. I'm still having a hard time forgiving FFG for this misstep. Challenge the Rebel regen/stress sure. Kill it completely? Not too smart.

Now we are getting a similar, but weaker, counter to Imperial PTL Aces.

Where exactly is FFG driving the game? Honestly I can't see it. Are we meant to bow down and welcome our new Scum overlords? Are we going to see the same sort of jump in power for Rebels and the Empire in future waves?

Argh! The sky is falling!

Seriously though, where is the game going?

Less fat turrets.

Less invincible Acewings.

Less invincible regen Acewings.

More playing the actual game. Hopefully.

But it's more playing the actual game as Scum. Rebels are almost pointless as you can't evade enough of the torpedoes with any type of Rebel fighter. And I'm not going to buy another Ghost just to have enough hull to live through that double or triple volley of torpedoes.

Now they want to trim the high end of Imperial play. But again it's only with Scum. What's the logic?

My biased view is that you play Scum to win is where we are going.