Noob question perhaps.

So, when crafting items, you can end up with Despair results, even two according to the tables.

How ?

I guess a GM can spend a destiny point to make the test harder (though I'd have to say that'd be a little in bad taste in my book unless you are crafting stuff for plot reasons), which would explain one of them, but what about a second? Are there any other ways to gain these results? (You could probably make an interesting house rule where you upgraded both sides voluntarily, so you could deliberately design powerful, heavy, cumbersome weapons - though it might be a balance nightmare)

If the PC was working in difficult circumstances, trying to do a 24hr+ project without sleep or has limited to no tools I would consider upgrading without even needing a DP flip. Basically it's all coming from Narrative stuff that fits the plot, it's not a normal thing.

Mechanics skill mentions GM adding difficulty dice, rather than upgrading them, and the basic dice pool rules add setback dice in such circumstances.

Setback is for trying circumstances, upgrades are for hazardous situations. So if the consequences of failure are high then it's Upgrade worthy. So what situations are dire (or dangerous or it's a danger to the equipment/materials themselves) when crafting?

A Hazardous work environment, the workshop is radiated or something

The Tools are virtually nonexistent

The materials are themselves hazardous for some reason.

Your trying to do it without other people knowing? The risk of being discovered could be worth an upgrade.

Extreme exhaustion.

These are all factors that the GM will need to have set up in advance.

What the others said. And you're GM flips a Destiny Point.

I think a dev mentioned on the Order 66 podcast that you could upgrade the difficulty (potentially multiple times) in order to rush a craft project.

Also if I can get the GM to flip a destiny point on my crafting, then that means that the group has an extra point for when the going gets tough. Hopefully the GM will spend any Despairs on something that will produce a fun scene when the device malfunctions or misbehaves at a crucial moment- if they use the Despair to make the item ineffective then I'll just throw it into the parts bin.

Thanks, still getting to grips with which dice changes happen in which conditions.

Thanks, still getting to grips with which dice changes happen in which conditions.

Don't sweat it too much, mate. Different people will have different interpretations. Some will add setback dice, some will upgrade. Neither are wrong.

Also, though this is technically a house rule (But if I remember correctly, one of the Devs mentioned using it in his games), if difficulty ever goes above 5, then increases turn into upgrades. I use this for modding attachments (generally lightsaber crystals, don't remember if anything else has enough where that would ever come into play).

There's also the possibility that future templates (or house-ruled templates) will include a Challenge die or two in the roll. What's the difficulty, for example, if you try to craft a thermal detonator...?

Also, though this is technically a house rule (But if I remember correctly, one of the Devs mentioned using it in his games), if difficulty ever goes above 5, then increases turn into upgrades. I use this for modding attachments (generally lightsaber crystals, don't remember if anything else has enough where that would ever come into play).

There are actually quite a few attachments where this can come into play, as any attachment with more than three mods will go past the 5 die level. This is another place where Workshops with Emergency Containment Measures really come in handy for mitigating difficulty upgrades.

Don't sweat it too much, mate. Different people will have different interpretations. Some will add setback dice, some will upgrade. Neither are wrong.

Actually, the books strongly recommend against you Upgrading difficulty in an arbitrary manner.

Sure, anyone can do what they like at their tables, but red dice are meant to be used for (fairly rare) opposed checks, GM DP flips, and certain talents like Adversary or Nobody's Fool.

This seems a good idea for two reasons -

1) adding black setback dice plays directly into PC powers that remove them

2) flipping DPs is intended to be part of the ebb and flow of the game, because the PCs then get an upgrade of their own.

If I think the situation warrants a red dice, if I think this could be an 'oh noes!' moment, then that's my cue to flip a DP. Doing that makes it look fair, not arbitrary, and puts the DP back in the PC's court.

Also, though this is technically a house rule (But if I remember correctly, one of the Devs mentioned using it in his games), if difficulty ever goes above 5, then increases turn into upgrades. I use this for modding attachments (generally lightsaber crystals, don't remember if anything else has enough where that would ever come into play).

There are actually quite a few attachments where this can come into play, as any attachment with more than three mods will go past the 5 die level. This is another place where Workshops with Emergency Containment Measures really come in handy for mitigating difficulty upgrades.

"Oh no. I tried to make this knife too sharp! Everyone out! It's gonna blow!"

I couldn't help myself.

Also, though this is technically a house rule (But if I remember correctly, one of the Devs mentioned using it in his games), if difficulty ever goes above 5, then increases turn into upgrades. I use this for modding attachments (generally lightsaber crystals, don't remember if anything else has enough where that would ever come into play).

There are actually quite a few attachments where this can come into play, as any attachment with more than three mods will go past the 5 die level. This is another place where Workshops with Emergency Containment Measures really come in handy for mitigating difficulty upgrades.

"Oh no. I tried to make this knife too sharp! Everyone out! It's gonna blow!"

I couldn't help myself.

I picture it more like that scene from Alien, only with a vibroblade instead of acidic blood.

*blade drops, slices through the floor of the deck, keeps going* "It's gonna cut through the frakkin' hull!"

Don't sweat it too much, mate. Different people will have different interpretations. Some will add setback dice, some will upgrade. Neither are wrong.

Actually, the books strongly recommend against you Upgrading difficulty in an arbitrary manner.

Sure, anyone can do what they like at their tables, but red dice are meant to be used for (fairly rare) opposed checks, GM DP flips, and certain talents like Adversary or Nobody's Fool.

This seems a good idea for two reasons -

1) adding black setback dice plays directly into PC powers that remove them

2) flipping DPs is intended to be part of the ebb and flow of the game, because the PCs then get an upgrade of their own.

If I think the situation warrants a red dice, if I think this could be an 'oh noes!' moment, then that's my cue to flip a DP. Doing that makes it look fair, not arbitrary, and puts the DP back in the PC's court.

I'm following you here an all, but I usually throw in an upgrade if there something inherently dangerous in what they're doing. So, walking on a tightrope 2 feet above the ground might be hard difficulty, but walking on one across say, a bottomless cliff necessitates an upgrade in my opinion, without flipping a Destiny Point. Stuff like that; otherwise, DPs are needed for anything else.

I haven't used a lot of crafting in my game, but I will use an ugrade or 2 when crafting an item, but don't have any relevant skill to use it, and don't have a set of blueprints to start from.

In my case, one character received a double upgrade for trying to build a field surgery kit (I think a specialist tool, but forget the term). He got a downgrade for each rank of medicine he had. I thought it was appropriate to penalize him if you don't have don't have any idea what you would use the tool for.

So, walking on a tightrope 2 feet above the ground might be hard difficulty, but walking on one across say, a bottomless cliff necessitates an upgrade in my opinion, without flipping a Destiny Point. Stuff like that; otherwise, DPs are needed for anything else.

I don't really understand that.

Sure, your game, your rules, but...

... aren't the consequences for failing that roll just harsher in the bottomless pit example? Why is it essentially harder to walk that rope that the one two feet above ground? Surely it's just harder consequences if you actually fall?

And I personally feel that adding reds 'because reasons' damages the flow of what was intended for DPs. You'll find it easy to justify doing that all the time, so the DPs all end up with the GM, who now has less need to flip them, so the PCs can't use them... it's a bit of a vicious circle when it's clearly intended to be a regular back-and-forth thing... <shrug>

In my case, one character received a double upgrade for trying to build a field surgery kit (I think a specialist tool, but forget the term). He got a downgrade for each rank of medicine he had. I thought it was appropriate to penalize him if you don't have don't have any idea what you would use the tool for.

That is a very clear case for adding blacks, not reds...

So, walking on a tightrope 2 feet above the ground might be hard difficulty, but walking on one across say, a bottomless cliff necessitates an upgrade in my opinion, without flipping a Destiny Point. Stuff like that; otherwise, DPs are needed for anything else.

I don't really understand that.

Sure, your game, your rules, but...

... aren't the consequences for failing that roll just harsher in the bottomless pit example? Why is it essentially harder to walk that rope that the one two feet above ground? Surely it's just harder consequences if you actually fall?

And I personally feel that adding reds 'because reasons' damages the flow of what was intended for DPs. You'll find it easy to justify doing that all the time, so the DPs all end up with the GM, who now has less need to flip them, so the PCs can't use them... it's a bit of a vicious circle when it's clearly intended to be a regular back-and-forth thing... <shrug>

I suppose, broadly, you're right. (Although, and I must admit I'm not a tightrope walker myself, I imagine it probably is harder to walk the more dangerous rope, if only for psychological reasons).

However, upgrading doesn't drastically increase the odds of failure. In fact, it does so less than adding a Setback. What it does do is add the possibility of Despair and increase the odds of Threat being rolled. I.e., exactly what you said - it makes the consequences worse.

Sounds like maybe walking over that bottomless pit might be a call for a fear check! That can add blacks or increase the difficulty but no upgrades. I think that might be something of a guideline for what sort of situations upgrade but Maelora had it right when she said your table, your rules.

I think that you should read your players before worrying about the rules so much. If they like to spend points to upgrade dice, then they'll need more points. If the GM isn't spending many points because of the rules, everyone's fun gets stymied.

Another thing we have used them for is when crafting and item you can partner with the GM and make deals. If you really want your weapon to get another level of accurate would you be willing to take Dangerously Volatile? You can use them as a scale for bartering with your GM when crafting.

I offered to give me GM Hidden flaw on the weapon I made. At some point I will regret doing that but until them I will hope it keeps working.

So, walking on a tightrope 2 feet above the ground might be hard difficulty, but walking on one across say, a bottomless cliff necessitates an upgrade in my opinion, without flipping a Destiny Point. Stuff like that; otherwise, DPs are needed for anything else.

I don't really understand that.

Sure, your game, your rules, but...

... aren't the consequences for failing that roll just harsher in the bottomless pit example? Why is it essentially harder to walk that rope that the one two feet above ground? Surely it's just harder consequences if you actually fall?

And I personally feel that adding reds 'because reasons' damages the flow of what was intended for DPs. You'll find it easy to justify doing that all the time, so the DPs all end up with the GM, who now has less need to flip them, so the PCs can't use them... it's a bit of a vicious circle when it's clearly intended to be a regular back-and-forth thing... <shrug>

Well, an upgrade to a red barely affects the failure rate. It only really increases threats and of course, the despair. Seems fine for me. But your table, your rules, so whatevs

EDIT: I do want to mention, I would only allow the player to fall down the pit when rolling a failure and a despair (success and a despair is probably, I dunno, hanging from the other side of the pit? Failure means they're stuck there, because maybe they can't summon the courage, or something. Also, incidentally, I would only allow retries depending on circumstances; if they were, say, being chased, and it was the only way to get across, they would have to keep trying, each time losing time and the enemies getting closer, while if they were just trying to do it to impress someone, one try is all they get.. So it's very likely we have very different interpretations of what the consequences of failure would be, which is fine

Personally the option is there for different types of dming. Some DM's, especially for complicated/one off builds/completely foreign projects may warrant upgrades to the check due to the amount of improvisation required on the crafters part. A few examples...

- Lightsabers (without instruction/knowing how they function beyond heresay) because knowledge simply isn't available and requires a lot of trail and error.

- Something that is completely exotic; Night Sisters Bow, a wookie bowcaster. These weapons tend to be wielded by particular cultures and as such the skills involved in making these are entirely different to a standard blaster. A gun smith usually wouldn't have the training to handle these and thus would quantify for at least one upgrade.

- Or even crafting a particular brand of weapon instead of a more general brand using a much more difficult check: Trying to build a equaliser pistol, the HH double barreled pistol, a flame thrower or a Thermal detonator. These weapons are manufactured with a great deal of specialised craftsmanship, thus one less skilled could end up making a knock off weapon that is incredibly dangerous. The flipside being that they can craft the exact gun they want. This isn't raw by the crafting system and I would expect said crafter to actually go to some effort to seek some data before crafting.

- If the player needs to craft something quickly, reducing the time is a possibility to show the player trying to rush.

- If the player is working more then 8 hours a day on a project- It's a house rule but generally speaking my group make the assumption that a crafting day consists of only 8 hours, with 8 being used for rest and the other 8 being used for other actives, eating and recreation. Basically we assume most characters have a life outside their role.

Basically, if the player is working in unfamiliar territory, having to rush things or craft a very standardised model, they should receive upgrades to the crafting check.

I think its extremely rare to have a situation where 2 upgrades are possible. The standard DP upgrade sure.

Attempting to take appart a thermal detonator to learn its template probably deserves an upgrade.

Crafting a suit of power armor using combat damaged salvage power armor for parts I could see an argument for an upgrade.

Crafting a disruptor rifle for the first time while having a disruptor rifle to look at but no actual template upgrade sounds good here.

Things that should never be 2 upgrades

Working on a template you know well.

Taking apart a safe device to learn its template.

Creating an item you have created successfully before.

Taking appart an item you have successfully taken appart before.