I am known as a fairly quiet person in real life, after all...

Mostly because I'm perpetually sober.

One of the best things you can do is own your faults. Most adult human beings will respect another who owns their faults because we have faults of our own that we want others to overlook as well. Every man should have a very large graveyard in which to bury the faults of his friends.\

And self-esteem is essential to interacting well with others. I'll never forget in my younger days when I was a freshman in college that someone mentioned, "You're hard on others because you're hard on yourself." Being hard oneself is a path to excellence, but being able to forgive oneself, which is essential to a stable, secure identity and the development of self-esteem means that you'll also forgive others more readily.

We're talking about self-development here. It doesn't come easy and it doesn't come quickly, but the social rewards make it well worth it.

Not sure how to affect the mid game. . . . Honestly I dont have malice to any of my opponents. I think the issue is that I am a good player. . . it sounds egotistical and likely is but I feel that to me people are playing good . . . I dont know. . . I honestly am not trying to be mean. ..

I've played against good players in a number of different games and let me tell you there are some who I know would usually DESTROY me in a game but I would NEVER turn down a game with them because they're great players and give me an enjoyable experience. Conversely, there are others who are shunned by the community. You don't get a bad reputation just because you're good, and falling back on that kind of thinking is comfortable but unfortunately also poisonous.

You are missing a step I think. I actually don't know how to explain it . . . I dont even know all the faults people have. I always assume that it is my petulant attitude when I mess up or the fact that to me playing "good" is the baseline for a game for me. They played it how they should of and that is the standard. Good games are ones that hang in the balance, ones were it was close and one side got the win in the end, a great game is one where crazy things are occurring.

You speak of people who are great at a game and you love to play them but the question is, if they have a social disorder what did they do to overcome that? You say my attitude is poisonous but you are not seeking information, you are assuming based off what you gathered. I think this leaves a chunk of the picture missing.

One of the best things you can do is own your faults. Most adult human beings will respect another who owns their faults because we have faults of our own that we want others to overlook as well. Every man should have a very large graveyard in which to bury the faults of his friends.\

And self-esteem is essential to interacting well with others. I'll never forget in my younger days when I was a freshman in college that someone mentioned, "You're hard on others because you're hard on yourself." Being hard oneself is a path to excellence, but being able to forgive oneself, which is essential to a stable, secure identity and the development of self-esteem means that you'll also forgive others more readily.

We're talking about self-development here. It doesn't come easy and it doesn't come quickly, but the social rewards make it well worth it.

This I get. I have been improving myself since I was 13 and realized then that I had so much to learn but it is very difficult. It is like scaling a mountain. People say things like "be more humble", or "have more modesty" and I am literally over here trying to figure out how one does that. I have not identified what is humbleness in myself, and for those of you who don't know what Aspergers is, that is what many of us with this Autistic disorder have to do. We have to Identify what that emotion, trait, etc is, identify how it is used, and then look for what we can do to emulate X until we get it. So when I say I am not trying to do X, I mean I have no idea what that is 9 times out of 10 because I have not identified it in myself.

People telling me to do X broad scope thing does not help. It is like a giant pile of sand hiding a clam with a pearl in inside.

Hmmm I think this turned into a rant when none was meant initially

One of the best things you can do is own your faults. Most adult human beings will respect another who owns their faults because we have faults of our own that we want others to overlook as well. Every man should have a very large graveyard in which to bury the faults of his friends.\

And self-esteem is essential to interacting well with others. I'll never forget in my younger days when I was a freshman in college that someone mentioned, "You're hard on others because you're hard on yourself." Being hard oneself is a path to excellence, but being able to forgive oneself, which is essential to a stable, secure identity and the development of self-esteem means that you'll also forgive others more readily.

We're talking about self-development here. It doesn't come easy and it doesn't come quickly, but the social rewards make it well worth it.

You have to own your issues, and I mean own them. You're not a disease that needs to be cured and you can't set up an environment to compensate for your social ticks. We all get passionate, but people can get overly passionate at the wrong times for the wrong reasons.

Now I know we're still on edge over that other issue we had but I am trying to really help you here because I know where you're at and know some good steps. Unfortunately even if it seems logical crowd sourcing your average person for an answer to a problem that we both share is not going to work. We are different and need a different approach than what others here have had to deal with. (I am assuming most posting here are not on the spectrum.) And you have to not be ashamed of it, own it. Find your own rhythm and stop trying to follow others. Be passionate but know when to step back and let go. (My friends at work know when I get too worked up they give me a "you need a break" notice for me to check myself.)

I am telling you "you need a break" to bring that passionate level down some. You need to give yourself time to reflect. And you need to reflect without degrading yourself. Intelligence isn't needed here, sorry, this is a time to develop your wisdom. And I know you know what that means.

(For those that don't know we are part of the same community, so I know him and the situation. It can be fixed, he's not a straight up *******, he just doesn't get social norms. Been there.)

One of the best things you can do is own your faults. Most adult human beings will respect another who owns their faults because we have faults of our own that we want others to overlook as well. Every man should have a very large graveyard in which to bury the faults of his friends.\

And self-esteem is essential to interacting well with others. I'll never forget in my younger days when I was a freshman in college that someone mentioned, "You're hard on others because you're hard on yourself." Being hard oneself is a path to excellence, but being able to forgive oneself, which is essential to a stable, secure identity and the development of self-esteem means that you'll also forgive others more readily.

We're talking about self-development here. It doesn't come easy and it doesn't come quickly, but the social rewards make it well worth it.

Very wise and true words. Also he wants to improve and that's why he's data collecting, but I'm not sure he sees it as self improvement so much as being able to "fit in" which I found through my own experience is the wrong method.

You have to own your issues, and I mean own them. You're not a disease that needs to be cured and you can't set up an environment to compensate for your social ticks. We all get passionate, but people can get overly passionate at the wrong times for the wrong reasons.

Now I know we're still on edge over that other issue we had but I am trying to really help you here because I know where you're at and know some good steps. Unfortunately even if it seems logical crowd sourcing your average person for an answer to a problem that we both share is not going to work. We are different and need a different approach than what others here have had to deal with. (I am assuming most posting here are not on the spectrum.) And you have to not be ashamed of it, own it. Find your own rhythm and stop trying to follow others. Be passionate but know when to step back and let go. (My friends at work know when I get too worked up they give me a "you need a break" notice for me to check myself.)

I am telling you "you need a break" to bring that passionate level down some. You need to give yourself time to reflect. And you need to reflect without degrading yourself. Intelligence isn't needed here, sorry, this is a time to develop your wisdom. And I know you know what that means.

(For those that don't know we are part of the same community, so I know him and the situation. It can be fixed, he's not a straight up *******, he just doesn't get social norms. Been there.)

I dont want a break though. Armada is currently the longest running hobby I have had since 40k. Add on that new waves have dropped and you are asking for near impossible things.

As for our issue, it is awkward but I dont fault you for your opinion. That is yours to have and no one should take it away from you or shame you out of it,

Social norms are weird. . . No one explains anything with social norms so its like tapping on a wall to find a secret passage without a general idea on where the passage is located. . . *tap tap tap* is it here? Nope . . . *tap tap* here?

When in doubt, talk less, smile more.

Me:

That is how I feel I would look.

That would still be an improvement over the present.

When in doubt, talk less, smile more.

Me:

That is how I feel I would look.

That would still be an improvement over the present.

You mean my normal expression. . . You have to feel sorry for my mom. . . from the ages of 4-7 or so I had so few expressions that i dont think I even remember a handful of times smiling. I just did not get emotions. . . still dont. It is a problem when you see a lot of the world in black and white terms.

That would still be an improvement over the present.

Get me some coffee and I'll improve, dammit.

Scottie, dont defend people who issue ultimatums without warning or consideration. Its a jerk move.

If you dont say anything until you are willing to boycott events, then you are equally guilty.

I feel like a jerk for saying it but that did happen. Unless there were subtle things I missed (more than likely since I am a literal definition of a Social Retard) then yea I only had opinions.

For me it is painful simply because I know I have improved. Shaking hands, telling people that they did great, trying to comment less and even playing games to play games and not just to dominate and win. Hell I play star wars sounds and music during games currently.

You are not the arbiter of whether or not your improvement is adequate. Have you ever heard the phrase, "You never get a second chance to make a first impression?" You're facing that in a non-abstract way.

Your efforts at improvement might be coming off as "try hard" (the music thing made that leap to my mind.) Folks like people with effortless social skills. People want to be around folks who "just get it." When people know that you know that they don't like you any accommodation of them can likely have the opposite effect of what is intended.

This is a valid point as well:

I dont understand. I get the part about effortless social skills but people need to understand that not everyone is at that level.

Depending on how you say it, telling someone they did great can come off pretty condescending. I'd recommend sticking to "Good Game" until you have a rapport with someone.

Saying, "You did great" to someone you've previously been ungracious with will come off badly. It will be perceived as further disrespect as you're now patronizing them.

I maintain that people are weird. . .

We don't get to function in a world where everyone exhibits patience and understanding and acts as they should. That's why you've started this conversation. You don't act as you "should." This is neither right nor wrong. It is simply a fact.

From where I sit the first thing you need to do is take a break as Beatty suggests. It seems to me he is the best help you'll have here.

From a practical standpoint if the group evaporates out of protesting your presence you have no chance to make this right and keep having a group to play in. From that end alone as hard as it may be to swallow, as wrong as it might feel, it is what needs to happen. If you become totally ostracized from a group you'll also make it that much harder to learn the things you need to learn to function in groups. So step back.

That would still be an improvement over the present.

Get me some coffee and I'll improve, dammit.

I will order you some kona coffee beans!

Social norms are weird. . . No one explains anything with social norms so its like tapping on a wall to find a secret passage without a general idea on where the passage is located. . . *tap tap tap* is it here? Nope . . . *tap tap* here?

Well, social norms are very complex and most of them learn them (slightly imperfectly) so very subtly that we are frequently not cognizant of them until they are broken. When they are, most people don't understand the norm violations accurately enough to put them in good words. Societies also tend to correct others' social norms through subtle sanctions and exclusions until the norm violator shapes up or leaves. Now, some of those exclusions happen because of reasons over which the violator has no control, because - for example - they are of a minority group, a social class standing, or - in your case - behavior that is just not understood.

Here's the thing: you try to have a rulebook approach to trying to understand society, and Western society has a pretense of being about rational behavior. Fortunately or unfortunately, that pretense is absolute bunk. People have a very poor conscious understanding of their own behavior much less anyone else's. We operate by the subconscious far more than than we think we do - and that includes you very much.

Social norms are weird. . . No one explains anything with social norms so its like tapping on a wall to find a secret passage without a general idea on where the passage is located. . . *tap tap tap* is it here? Nope . . . *tap tap* here?

Well, social norms are very complex and most of them learn them (slightly imperfectly) so very subtly that we are frequently not cognizant of them until they are broken. When they are, most people don't understand the norm violations accurately enough to put them in good words. Societies also tend to correct others' social norms through subtle sanctions and exclusions until the norm violator shapes up or leaves. Now, some of those exclusions happen because of reasons over which the violator has no control, because - for example - they are of a minority group, a social class standing, or - in your case - behavior that is just not understood.

Here's the thing: you try to have a rulebook approach to trying to understand society, and Western society has a pretense of being about rational behavior. Fortunately or unfortunately, that pretense is absolute bunk. People have a very poor conscious understanding of their own behavior much less anyone else's. We operate by the subconscious far more than than we think we do - and that includes you very much.

I dont disagree, it is how I play armada as well. It is a subconscious feeling with a back up of conscious thought. Still it is weird, I hate feeling like I am looking through a window of what social norms are and can never find the door no matter what I change. It feels like I can never do enough. . .

Micheal hit it on the head. Social norms were a fascination of mine for a period in the day and I found that it is mostly subconscious, even when people are offended or trying to correct someone they can't put it to words. You know that feeling you get when you're studying a scientific problem or other data based subject and you get feelings without knowing where or why it happens? Samething happens in social situations. I tried the "logical" ways tapping on the walls and found that doesn't work. You have to study your own emotions more carefully, not others. You have to internalize you search, not look for an external answer.

It may not make sense right now but that's the difference between a "smart" person and a "wise" person.

Micheal hit it on the head. Social norms were a fascination of mine for a period in the day and I found that it is mostly subconscious, even when people are offended or trying to correct someone they can't put it to words. You know that feeling you get when you're studying a scientific problem or other data based subject and you get feelings without knowing where or why it happens? Samething happens in social situations. I tried the "logical" ways tapping on the walls and found that doesn't work. You have to study your own emotions more carefully, not others. You have to internalize you search, not look for an external answer.

It may not make sense right now but that's the difference between a "smart" person and a "wise" person.

This I get. It took me 4 years in the navy just to gain "common sense" Not that common btw >.> You guys have known me only over a year it takes time but at this point I am just getting depressed over the situation. I will likely have to live with the fact that I wont have many attendees to my tournaments and I am holding my FLGS back.

And that analogy of "Looking through a window" is totally accurate, but that's the breaks. I still have issue connecting with people on many levels, but I don't let my emotions vent out in most situations. I have found even when I was venting at myself it still made people feel uncomfortable to watch my self destructive behavior.

But yes, it is an uphill battle that does suck on many levels. There will be times where you want to go back to playing behind a screen away from people because being too close sucks as bad as being away. And looking through the window is not as bad as being blind.

You can choose to ignore me but if what you have said in the past is correct I understand your issue better than most here. People are weird. They are illogical touchy things with disgusting habits, sorry everyone, but they won't change, ever. You have to be the change, and you have to look at yourself first.

Micheal hit it on the head. Social norms were a fascination of mine for a period in the day and I found that it is mostly subconscious, even when people are offended or trying to correct someone they can't put it to words. You know that feeling you get when you're studying a scientific problem or other data based subject and you get feelings without knowing where or why it happens? Samething happens in social situations. I tried the "logical" ways tapping on the walls and found that doesn't work. You have to study your own emotions more carefully, not others. You have to internalize you search, not look for an external answer.

It may not make sense right now but that's the difference between a "smart" person and a "wise" person.

This I get. It took me 4 years in the navy just to gain "common sense" Not that common btw >.> You guys have known me only over a year it takes time but at this point I am just getting depressed over the situation. I will likely have to live with the fact that I wont have many attendees to my tournaments and I am holding my FLGS back.

"Common sense is actually nothing more than a deposit of prejudices laid down in the mind prior to the age of eighteen" (attributed to Albert Einstein)

Something I learned in life that sounds harsh but I think may help in this case:

Nobody really cares why you did the bad thing (or failied, or didn't do the thing)... the people that really know you and love you (family/close friends) will understand if there is a circumstance that contributes to it, but casual acquaintences really won't.

This applies here in that you need to stop projecting that you have the problem. I've watched 2 vassal games you played, and honestly.. you weren't that bad in either of them.. I wouldn't say bad at all ....

BUT because we have these threads going on and on about your problems and how you do the jerk thing and want to try and stop the jerk thing and don't really understand social norms making you continue to drift into doing jerk things, what happens is people that play you will automatically, naturally go into "brace for *******" mode, and react strongly and have less patience with you when you do minor faux paus that other players will "get away" with, or be able to catch and do a quick apology for.

That won't *solve* the problem, but you are putting a giant neon billboard over your head that folks that only interact with you casually will react to. Then you spotlight the reaction, and it becomes bigger.. it's a snowball effect.

I understand you don't want to, but locally you need to take a break. Skip a tourney or two, then start poking in for some casual play, before thinking of pushing yourself back into tournaments.

This all sounds kind of negative, but really you can't give a detailed blueprint on the positive. Saying "don't do the thing" isn't going to help you not do the thing. You need to put a bit of distance and ease back in on your end, and if you stop projecting your problem before and after the fact you will get to work with the same leeway the rest of us have with making the occasional comment or reaction that can be taken negatively.

Something I learned in life that sounds harsh but I think may help in this case:

Nobody really cares why you did the bad thing (or failied, or didn't do the thing)... the people that really know you and love you (family/close friends) will understand if there is a circumstance that contributes to it, but casual acquaintences really won't.

This applies here in that you need to stop projecting that you have the problem. I've watched 2 vassal games you played, and honestly.. you weren't that bad in either of them.. I wouldn't say bad at all ....

BUT because we have these threads going on and on about your problems and how you do the jerk thing and want to try and stop the jerk thing and don't really understand social norms making you continue to drift into doing jerk things, what happens is people that play you will automatically, naturally go into "brace for *******" mode, and react strongly and have less patience with you when you do minor faux paus that other players will "get away" with, or be able to catch and do a quick apology for.

That won't *solve* the problem, but you are putting a giant neon billboard over your head that folks that only interact with you casually will react to. Then you spotlight the reaction, and it becomes bigger.. it's a snowball effect.

I understand you don't want to, but locally you need to take a break. Skip a tourney or two, then start poking in for some casual play, before thinking of pushing yourself back into tournaments.

This all sounds kind of negative, but really you can't give a detailed blueprint on the positive. Saying "don't do the thing" isn't going to help you not do the thing. You need to put a bit of distance and ease back in on your end, and if you stop projecting your problem before and after the fact you will get to work with the same leeway the rest of us have with making the occasional comment or reaction that can be taken negatively.

I have a Tournament I set up this Sunday that will likely fall flat by the looks of it but after that I likely wont hold anything for a time. . . we shall see.

This is true for vassal sure but people remember the bad far more than they remember the good so I fear that when I return, even a small misstep will cause another ostracization and this worries me greatly. . .

Something I learned in life that sounds harsh but I think may help in this case:

Nobody really cares why you did the bad thing (or failied, or didn't do the thing)... the people that really know you and love you (family/close friends) will understand if there is a circumstance that contributes to it, but casual acquaintences really won't.

This applies here in that you need to stop projecting that you have the problem. I've watched 2 vassal games you played, and honestly.. you weren't that bad in either of them.. I wouldn't say bad at all ....

BUT because we have these threads going on and on about your problems and how you do the jerk thing and want to try and stop the jerk thing and don't really understand social norms making you continue to drift into doing jerk things, what happens is people that play you will automatically, naturally go into "brace for *******" mode, and react strongly and have less patience with you when you do minor faux paus that other players will "get away" with, or be able to catch and do a quick apology for.

That won't *solve* the problem, but you are putting a giant neon billboard over your head that folks that only interact with you casually will react to. Then you spotlight the reaction, and it becomes bigger.. it's a snowball effect.

I understand you don't want to, but locally you need to take a break. Skip a tourney or two, then start poking in for some casual play, before thinking of pushing yourself back into tournaments.

This all sounds kind of negative, but really you can't give a detailed blueprint on the positive. Saying "don't do the thing" isn't going to help you not do the thing. You need to put a bit of distance and ease back in on your end, and if you stop projecting your problem before and after the fact you will get to work with the same leeway the rest of us have with making the occasional comment or reaction that can be taken negatively.

I have a Tournament I set up this Sunday that will likely fall flat by the looks of it but after that I likely wont hold anything for a time. . . we shall see.

This is true for vassal sure but people remember the bad far more than they remember the good so I fear that when I return, even a small misstep will cause another ostracization and this worries me greatly. . .

In "real life" it's harder than vassal to repair the damge... which is why you want to ease back.... assuming others also set up tourneys, wait out a few, then look to rejoin the group in casual play before dropping back into a tournament, and do so quietly... don't project the problem by publicly asking or announcing anything.. maybe talk to the guy running the tourney you want to slip back into. Don't try to explain your break, just apologize to anyone you need to openly and move on. Having a guy that knows you well to talk with about it is good, public discourse about the why's and how's of it with people that you just see at the games is not.

If you make returning to the game a big deal with a story and specific apologies and explanations, you lose any ground you get from the space.... just take a break, and ease back in. Talk to folks you know well and already understand your issues directly to work out your anxieties and frustrations with it.

You speak of people who are great at a game and you love to play them but the question is, if they have a social disorder what did they do to overcome that?

I don't know if they have a social disorder or not. For most of them I would imagine not. For one or two of the ones with bad reputations, I can imagine that being the case. Unfortunately, if you want people to get along with you better then having Aspergers isn't something you can fall back on ad infinitum. I'm not disputing that Aspergers is absolutely a challenge to you, mind you, and I recognize it's not something you chose for yourself and that it causes you problems unfairly. However, "guy I don't want to play with" is exactly the same as "guy with Aspergers I don't want to play with" for the purposes of keeping yourself meaningfully engaged within your community, just the same as "friend with epilepsy" is the same as "drunk driver" for "guys I don't want to drive me anywhere," even though one of them has a condition that's not his fault that impairs his driving (due to seizures) and the other is much more culpable for his actions (due to intoxication).

I would like for you to engage more with Beatty in this thread. His responses have been absolutely solid gold compared to everything else because he's been in a situation similar to yours and it sounds like he's done an admirable job of making it work out. I'd also encourage you to discuss the situation with a regular counselor if you haven't already. From the threads you've made about these heightening social problems it seems like it's something that causes you distress and a counselor can help.

You say my attitude is poisonous but you are not seeking information, you are assuming based off what you gathered. I think this leaves a chunk of the picture missing.

I actually said your line of thinking that people don't like you because you're good is poisonous. Your attitude is harder to surmise. The line of thinking is poisonous to you and then by extension to your community because it's easy to come to the conclusion that people don't like you because you're better than them and they're jealous. That shifts the burden of being a "bad person"* onto others and allows oneself to just kind of smugly sit back and do nothing. Hence why I said it's comfortable but unfortunately it's poisonous because you're trading short-term comfort for long-term isolation. Life gives us enough problems to overcome without creating new ones for ourselves.

*For what it's worth I think trying to single specific parties out for blame is usually quite counter-productive and impairs a better understanding of how systems and incentivizations produce specific kinds of results, but the urge to find the "bad people" is always there, on one side or another.

That would still be an improvement over the present.

Get me some coffee and I'll improve, dammit.

sigh I didn't want to have to enforce my signature, dras.

http://www.java.com/en/

I have to take things one step at a time, one day at a time, and one issue at a time.

It looks like you said you were self-treating this. If that is the case, and you have not gone to seek a professional behavior specialist, you're not going to be successful. Sounds harsh but true.

If you have received a mental health professional's treatment, just go back to what you worked out with that person.

Coming to a gamer forum where you already have a reputation isn't going to solve your issues.

I don't understand, I've read a lot of your posts over time reading here, well before I registered, and apart from things like plugging DTO which rubbed me the wrong way, or obvious statements, nothing and I mean nothing I have seen from you warrants being ostracized.

I don't see you being nasty or abusive, I know people can create online personas that are totally different from how they behave in the real world, but if that was the case, you certainly would not be talking about Asperger's and your issues interacting with others.

I can only see two things, one your issues interacting and understanding, and two telling strangers why you did something you did(Asperger's). Never ever tell total strangers you have Asperger's or it can make you act in a sh*tty way, it will create in them an automatic negative impression of you, where someone else they would just write things off to a bad day, or being a bit uptight, instead every single thing you do they do not like they will associate with Asperger's, to the point that they will feel guilty about engaging with you, and then afterwards they will resent it, and once that starts, you can forget about it, it is far less hassle for them to have nothing to do with you, than it is to try.

And I am saying this as someone who also suffers from a Neurological Disorder. Only people who are friends will even try and understand, a stranger will stand there making sympathetic sounds, and making nice, and once they escape from your orbit, you have black marked yourself. They will never know if playing you will be fun, or will it be bad, because something triggers you, while playing.

My advice is, stop telling strangers, let them think what ever they will, just like they have to when they play someone else. a guy who is a bit uptight is one thing, a guy who has a disorder they don't understand, is just a hassle when they are out for some stress release.

If you do take a break, make sure when you go back, do not talk about it, stick to things that are safe topics, and just slowly let them see you are no different to anyone else, everyone has times they get pissy or mad or is not much fun to be around, because everyone has problems some where in their life.