X-Wing: core box, 2 factions (2 ties and 1 x-wing or 2 Tie/FO and 1 T-70), you buy the starter core box and then if you only want to collect and play 1 faction you have some material useless. Also very useful upgrade cards for your army are boxed with miniatures of factions you don't play. Scum case is even worse, your starter box don't include required things as movement templates or dice, so you "need" the most wanted box and a core with 3 miniatures you don't want.

Imperial Assault: is a weird mix of competitive and cooperative game, if you want to play only competitive games you get tons of material you are not going to use. There are not different starting boxes for competitive and cooperative. And again in expansion boxes factions you don't collect and play have some command cards useful for your army. In a competitive game this is a huge disadvantage if you don't collect all. Here again, for competitive games core box have a mix of three factions and you can't trade the miniatures you don't want because most of them are unique.

Armada: same situation than before, a starting box mix of 2 factions, not enough to have and standard army. I have not followed last expansions but at the beginning there was again a mix of cards useful for you in miniatures of the faction you don't collect.

And we arrive to Runewars .

This is a huge opportunity to do the things right, this is what we want:

· Starter boxes for each faction (with all the material needed to play). -The box right now to be released is 2 factions with half points of a standard game-.

· Each expansion only have cards related with their own army.

Please do not do the same than other games here.

I tend to agree.... if it's rank and file... this type of game isn't a "one of everything" model. Since we'll have tons of plastic that we don't wanna use (especially with four+ factions).

This is a high risk/high reward endeavor... I think everyone is watching (and rooting for it to work).

· Each expansion only have cards related with their own army.

I would go even further and say include only cards usable by that particular unit/hero so that one doesn't have to buy units/heros he doesn't like just to get the cards.

You know, they're in the business of making money. Of course they're going to make it as likely as possible that you'll want to buy ALL OF THE THINGS! It's at the core of what they do. Changing their business model so that the average consumer can buy LESS product, but enjoy the game to the same degree would be an incredibly foolish thing to do.

So, yes, you're allowed to feel annoyed when you "have to buy" an expansion pack where you only want a few components, but expecting this to change is pretty naïve. To be clear though, you don't "have to buy" anything. Everything is a value proposition. If you're competitive enough that spending $15 to gain a perceived improvement in win chance is worth it, then it's worth it. If you're a casual player, it probably won't be worth it.

I am a casual player so i do not need every card or X copies of one card so i personaly don't care that much and i know they want to make money but i can still dislike that kind of business model.

And it's even possible you will find the cards online like with X-Wing so you can use them as a casual player without buying everything but i still would have liked it more if there was no need for this.

· Each expansion only have cards related with their own army.

I would go even further and say include only cards usable by that particular unit/hero so that one doesn't have to buy units/heros he doesn't like just to get the cards.

I am confused by this. The fact that the cards within the X-Wing and Armada packages are usable by anyone with a matching hardpoint (icon) is one of the core things that allows for creativity and customization. If I buy an A-Wing, I definitely want that Push the Limit card to have usefulness and application for my other ships too. Now what might be nice is having a way to buy the cards independent of the ships. Such as 'Wave pack' with all the non-unit specific upgrades available in duplicate for, say $10. That would be a nice thing to have.

I didn't see any special upgrade cards in the demo video, only the dials and those are specific to the unit itself and not transferable. Why cards are people referring to?

You know, they're in the business of making money. Of course they're going to make it as likely as possible that you'll want to buy ALL OF THE THINGS! It's at the core of what they do. Changing their business model so that the average consumer can buy LESS product, but enjoy the game to the same degree would be an incredibly foolish thing to do.

So, yes, you're allowed to feel annoyed when you "have to buy" an expansion pack where you only want a few components, but expecting this to change is pretty naïve. To be clear though, you don't "have to buy" anything. Everything is a value proposition. If you're competitive enough that spending $15 to gain a perceived improvement in win chance is worth it, then it's worth it. If you're a casual player, it probably won't be worth it.

Forcing your customers to buy expensive models they don't want for the war game just go get additional rules for models they already have is bad business, even if it has done well for them in their Star Wars line. It's not naive to hope that they operate more like existing miniatures games in the market since this game appears to be targeting those gamers.

As much as I'd like to dive in on Day 1 I'm already thrusters-deep into Armada, and heavily invested in Battlelore 2e. I've got the luxury (I suppose) of sitting back and watching how the expansion bloat works out. And it will. I have every intention of keeping my eye on it, and revisiting the idea of a purchase this time next year. Don't get me wrong, I love how it looks. But I believe between what I already own and the desire to avoid as much Asmodee tax as possible I'll spectate for a bit

· Each expansion only have cards related with their own army.

I would go even further and say include only cards usable by that particular unit/hero so that one doesn't have to buy units/heros he doesn't like just to get the cards.

I am confused by this. The fact that the cards within the X-Wing and Armada packages are usable by anyone with a matching hardpoint (icon) is one of the core things that allows for creativity and customization. If I buy an A-Wing, I definitely want that Push the Limit card to have usefulness and application for my other ships too. Now what might be nice is having a way to buy the cards independent of the ships. Such as 'Wave pack' with all the non-unit specific upgrades available in duplicate for, say $10. That would be a nice thing to have.

Yes it's nice to use cards for your whole fleet but for competetive players this might meany they have to buy 3 or 4 A-Wings which they will never use or find someone that sells the cards without the models. And most miniature games don't have upgrade cards you just have different options for your units and heroes but these are only for them.

A Wave card pack would be a great idea though.

I agree too. Paying for models you don't need in a rank and file game is ridiculous and it WILL turn a lot of potential player off. I am interested in Runewars, but if this policy doesn't change, I will definitely look for another system. One of the main reasons I stay away from GW products is their bad policies. Many players is just angry/tired/disappointed with GW. If FFG keeps this kind model, it will leave bad taste, just like GW leaves bad taste for many players who decided to leave that chapter behind them.

"It's not naive to hope that they operate more like existing miniatures games in the market since this game appears to be targeting those gamers."

THIS.

Having one of everything to be competitive is one thing but if this pushes the cost to GW/Warmachine levels to have a useful unit, then why not continue to play what you've been playing? Why would you a take a risk on a new game when an established player base already exists?

Having several spare ships is one thing, but we are talking numerous rank and file that may collect dust. It'll be kinda burdensome to have around your place.

The "innovation" would be to release upgrade cards that work for your faction only. You can sell supplements (like the Armada campaign) that gives generic help to everyone.

Well, the more traditional games are losing market share while games like X-Wing are gaining market share. I think if I were FFG, I'd set my new miniatures game up just like my other ones which are gaining market share. Copying your competitor's product release model when you have a demonstrably better system would be bad business.

And why not continue playing what you're playing? I used to play Warhammer 40k. I've more or less quit due to bad rules (inconsistent + ambiguous), ridiculously escalating price points ($30+ for a single infantry figure) and less and less realistic ability to play fluffy theme lists in an environment where alpha strike armies can wipe out half your models before you take your first turn. There are a million reasons to switch to a new game that costs the same as the current game you're playing.

Besides, from a table top gaming perspective, a one time $250 investment is basically chump change. That would get you two full starters and several Wave I add-on packs, assuming Descent/X-Wing/Armada level pricing for the add-ons. That's two full tournament legal armies. For Warhammer 40k, $250 is nothing. By the time you buy the core rules, an army book, dice, a ruler and templates you barely have any money left over for models. If you decide to go the starter box route, $250 barely covers the starter box + the two army books necessary to play both armies outside the starter box scenario rules.

All they really need to do to "fix" a lot of distribution issues is offer a print-on-demand service where you can buy upgrade cards as singles. They already have POD capability, they use it for some of their LCGs. Just let me go to a page, add a bunch of singles to my cart, and I get what I need. I'm still gonna buy models too, probably more of them now that I can give all my money to FFG instead of some singles guy on eBay.

Even when you're NOT going outside your own faction it's still a problem. Case in point - I made a new X-Wing list using two TIE Bombers, a TIE Interceptor, and a TIE Fighter. My Bombers need two copies of an upgrade card only found with the TIE Punisher and two copies of some other cards that come from the Inquisitor's TIE. That's $70 worth of ships that I may or may not use, and this is not even one of those whacky "4-5 copies of the same ship" sort of lists. This is my reasonable version based on not wanting to buy 4xTIE Bombers and then 4x of all the other ships too just to run one list.

I think there are two kinds of players for these sorts of games.

1. Player A buys a bunch of stuff, looks at what he owns and then builds a list.

2. Player B buys a bunch of stuff, looks at both what he owns and doesn't own, builds a list and then probably has to go out and buy extra stuff.

Player B is usually more competitive or plays in organized events where "obeying the meta" is far more important. Player B is almost always going to have to spend more money than Player A, but he's also probably going to win more games... especially in organized play events.

Ultimately, if you want to play in a competitive environment, you'll have to spend more money than if you want to play in a casual environment. Most savvy manufacturers are aware of this and are more than happy to rig the system to get as much of your money as possible. How can we get casual Rebel players to buy Imperial ships? That's a tough sell. They're casual players and don't care about Imperials. How can we get competitive Rebel players to buy Imperial ships? Easy. Include Rebel usable cards in the Imperial kits.

Besides, from a table top gaming perspective, a one time $250 investment is basically chump change. That would get you two full starters and several Wave I add-on packs, assuming Descent/X-Wing/Armada level pricing for the add-ons. That's two full tournament legal armies. For Warhammer 40k, $250 is nothing. By the time you buy the core rules, an army book, dice, a ruler and templates you barely have any money left over for models. If you decide to go the starter box route, $250 barely covers the starter box + the two army books necessary to play both armies outside the starter box scenario rules.

See, the problem with your argument is that Games Workshop products should NEVER be a benchmark for how much miniature wargames cost.

250$ can buy you:

- all the rules, accessories and terrain to play Deadzone, including strike teams for all six factions of that game

- two 60+ model armies and all three current rulebooks and supplements for Kings of War

- the gorgeus hardback rulebook for Gates of Antares and two tournament-sized armies for that game

- two full reinforced platoons with tanks and all the bells and whistles for Bolt Action

- everything a dozen or so people will need to play Frostgrave

- every single release for your chosen faction in Warzone Resurrection, including a humungous resin vehicle you'll never use in a regular game, and you'll still have about 30$ to spare

And so on. And those are all going by MSRP.

Citing Games Workshop in an argument about the price of miniature wargaming is like making an argument about how expensive cars in general are and pointing to Bugatti.

The degree to which this is true depends a lot on the game. Take for example an LCG. No matter how competitive you are, you will never need more than one of each pack which comes to $15 a month at full retail (and many people will have discounts of some sort). Casual players often buy the same exact amount. Both sets of players have the exact same cards to build lists from, the difference is that one of them understands the game better and spends more effort on honing their skills, testing and tuning their decks, etc...

Without having to buy ships you do not want to field (whether they are part of your faction or not), X-Wing would be a lot cheaper. Let's take an example. I just made up a new X-Wing list. When making it I was attempting to be "reasonable" and avoid cards that are only on Epic ships and avoid taking a lot of copies of the same card.

Here's the list:

TIE Bomber (Gamma Veteran) w/ Deadeye, Extra Munitions, Plasma Torpedoes, Guidance Chips

TIE Bomber (Gamma Veteran) w/ Deadeye, Extra Munitions, Proton Torpedoes, Guidance Chips

Besides, from a table top gaming perspective, a one time $250 investment is basically chump change. That would get you two full starters and several Wave I add-on packs, assuming Descent/X-Wing/Armada level pricing for the add-ons. That's two full tournament legal armies. For Warhammer 40k, $250 is nothing. By the time you buy the core rules, an army book, dice, a ruler and templates you barely have any money left over for models. If you decide to go the starter box route, $250 barely covers the starter box + the two army books necessary to play both armies outside the starter box scenario rules.

See, the problem with your argument is that Games Workshop products should NEVER be a benchmark for how much miniature wargames cost.

I would argue that as the largest market share, non space battle table top game, Warhammer 40k is the ideal point of comparison. Sure there are other games that are cheaper, but they don't represent the majority of the market in the same way that Warhammer 40k does. Far more people would be coming from GW to this than would be coming from, say, Deadzone. Ergo, GW is a better benchmark than Deadzone for an average player's experience.

Citing Games Workshop in an argument about the price of miniature wargaming is like making an argument about the price of cars and pointing to Bugatti.

Unfair comparison. Games Workshop may be pricey, but it's also the dominant player in the non space battle table top game market. Bugatti may make nice cars, but they're not even close to being a dominant player in the market.

I expect Warmachine is actually bigger. It ends up looking funny in the ranks because for some weird reason they list Warmachine and Hordes as two games when they're actually the same game.

But you're probably right that more people come *from* GW. A lot more people want to leave their games for some reason

"It's not naive to hope that they operate more like existing miniatures games in the market since this game appears to be targeting those gamers."

THIS.

Having one of everything to be competitive is one thing but if this pushes the cost to GW/Warmachine levels to have a useful unit, then why not continue to play what you've been playing? Why would you a take a risk on a new game when an established player base already exists?

Having several spare ships is one thing, but we are talking numerous rank and file that may collect dust. It'll be kinda burdensome to have around your place.

The "innovation" would be to release upgrade cards that work for your faction only. You can sell supplements (like the Armada campaign) that gives generic help to everyone.

Well, the more traditional games are losing market share while games like X-Wing are gaining market share. I think if I were FFG, I'd set my new miniatures game up just like my other ones which are gaining market share. Copying your competitor's product release model when you have a demonstrably better system would be bad business.

And why not continue playing what you're playing? I used to play Warhammer 40k. I've more or less quit due to bad rules (inconsistent + ambiguous), ridiculously escalating price points ($30+ for a single infantry figure) and less and less realistic ability to play fluffy theme lists in an environment where alpha strike armies can wipe out half your models before you take your first turn. There are a million reasons to switch to a new game that costs the same as the current game you're playing.

Besides, from a table top gaming perspective, a one time $250 investment is basically chump change. That would get you two full starters and several Wave I add-on packs, assuming Descent/X-Wing/Armada level pricing for the add-ons. That's two full tournament legal armies. For Warhammer 40k, $250 is nothing. By the time you buy the core rules, an army book, dice, a ruler and templates you barely have any money left over for models. If you decide to go the starter box route, $250 barely covers the starter box + the two army books necessary to play both armies outside the starter box scenario rules.

I've skipped X-Wing, Armada, Imperial Assault, and the Star Wars RPGs entirely because of their distribution models. I'm sure I'm not alone, and while they probably make more money the way it is, the difference might not be as huge as it seems compared to a more customer friendly model and the good will that goes along with it.

I expect Warmachine is actually bigger. It ends up looking funny in the ranks because for some weird reason they list Warmachine and Hordes as two games when they're actually the same game.

But you're probably right that more people come *from* GW. A lot more people want to leave their games for some reason

Yeah... the games are terrible. They have some great models, but the rules are a mess. That's the main reason I'm so excited by this. FFG knows how to write and maintain rules that are fun for both casual and competitive play.

As to the GW v. PP thing, take a look at the comparative revenues. GW outsells PP by a decent margin.

Just because it's working in the Star Wars IP doesn't mean it's a good way to treat your customers.

When something goes from release to the top selling game in a matter of about 3 years, knocking off 40k... It's doing something right and the IP isn't the only factor.

We shouldn't just accept and, worse, praise bad practices because it makes a company we like more money.

No you should buy it or not based on what you think the value of the game is. If the system they use isn't something you don't like then don't buy it. But clearly the system makes them a lot of money and is something that's pretty much already set. No amount of posting here is going to change anything. So it's a simple matter of buy or don't buy.

Plus there's no way to accurately gauge how much money they lose

You're right, so there's no point in discussing it, because you'll never know, all anyone can know is how much it does make. Could they have made more money from X-Wing if they had set it up different? We can't actually know that, what we can know is how much it does make and the fact that FFG is quite pleased with how much profit it generates.

I doubt that they are looking for X-Wing level profits with Runewars, but they will use a system that has been proven effective in their other games, and as long as this game turns a profit then they'll be happy.

We can also know that FFG has not made any mistakes with how they set up X-Wing or Aramada so the whole premise of the OP is blatantly wrong.

It's not set though, we don't know how they're going to distribute it yet. By your logic all the discussion threads in this forum are useless since we don't have much solid information so why bother talking about it.

By your logic all the discussion threads in this forum are useless since we don't have much solid information so why bother talking about it.

Yes all the discussions about this game should be marketed and sold are useless.