How do you guys rule quick takedowns in your games, for example if your acolytes are infiltrating an enemy camp and want to quietly take out a sentry, how do you it in a way that is satisfying and achieves their goals if they roll well?

The reason I ask is, if an acolyte sneaks into point blank range, places a silenced stub revolver on the back of the sentry's head and pulls the trigger, or perhaps slips a blade into their kidneys, that sentry should be dead. RAW that isn't going to happen.

The way I'm thinking of making it happen is that they still roll to hit with all the associated modifiers (perhaps after succeeding and opposed stealth/awareness test to get into position) and skip the damage phase (falling back on the rule that you don't need to roll for things that the GM deems automatically passes). My problem with this is that it starts to become a bit more complicated once you factor in armour and different melee weapon types (although the GM can always decide on the fly if x weapon vs y armour qualifies for the insta-kill).

Your thoughts are appreciated

Depending on the circumstances, you could treat the enemy sentries as being Helpless. I don't have the rules with me at this moment but I believe that it allows you to skip the attack roll and roll damage twice before adding the damage together and applying it to the enemy. If you wanted to provide further surety that the attack will be a sure kill, you could rule in those circumstances that your weapon has the Proven quality equal to the attacker's WS or BS bonus. This could mean that even the crappy 1d5 knife could kill a ganger guard outright provided the player rolled well and aimed for the unarmoured neck or something like that.

Simple: if the character is in point blank range and surprised at the same time, it's helpless.

Agreed. Someone at point blank and unaware of your presence is almost by definition helpless.

Also remember the 'degrees of success' rule - not only are you doing double damage, but you're rolling to hit with a massive bonus (point blank and a surprised/helpless target with the pistol, for example) so with a decent roll, you should be getting many degrees of success.

At the same time; the GM should always be prepared to skip rules minutiae when they don't add anything to the game. If an assassin has a stalker-pattern bolter levelled at the back of a target's head, and the target doesn't know anything's going on, making the attack rolls is just rolling dice for the sake of rolling dice.

For an important character who's got fate points, and the nature of whose injuries are plot-critical, fair enough. For a generic goon who's only importance is whether he manages to yell "Aaaaaargh!" or not before his inevitable humiliating death?

Why bother?

I treat unaware enemies in point blank range as being helpless if rolling damage is important, but this is almost a guaranteed kill on a normal human. I sometimes skip the damage roll entirely and award the kill as long as my player passes their (heavily advantaged) WS/BS test.

As an interesting side note, this means the best easily-available stealth weapons are silenced pistols and Best quality mono-knives. If a player wants to kit themselves out for a stealth mission, they can buy these weapons and some stummers and be all set.

Helpless (from D&D's perspective)

I only turn to DnD because its soo combat focused and has had years to develop certain RPG concepts...

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A helpless character is paralyzed , held , bound, sleeping, unconscious , or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy.

A helpless opponent is someone who is bound, sleeping, paralyzed , unconscious, or otherwise at your mercy.

As a full-round action , you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless opponent. You can also use a bow or crossbow, provided you are adjacent to the target. You automatically hit and score a critical hit . If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save ( DC 10 + damage dealt) or die.

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Translation into 40k

The target is unable to act at all

The target can be hit automatically from an adjacent box/square

That auto hit does Critical Damage - bypassing Wounds entirely...

Just my two and a half cents LOL

Stay GAMING

Morbid

Agreed. Someone at point blank and unaware of your presence is almost by definition helpless.

Also remember the 'degrees of success' rule - not only are you doing double damage, but you're rolling to hit with a massive bonus (point blank and a surprised/helpless target with the pistol, for example) so with a decent roll, you should be getting many degrees of success.

How does DoS help here? As far as I am aware it only really comes into play with Accurate weapons and when firing on semi or full.

Thanks for all the replies so far, I hadn't considered making the victim count as helpless.

Agreed. Someone at point blank and unaware of your presence is almost by definition helpless.

Also remember the 'degrees of success' rule - not only are you doing double damage, but you're rolling to hit with a massive bonus (point blank and a surprised/helpless target with the pistol, for example) so with a decent roll, you should be getting many degrees of success.

How does DoS help here? As far as I am aware it only really comes into play with Accurate weapons and when firing on semi or full.

Thanks for all the replies so far, I hadn't considered making the victim count as helpless.

You are allowed to substitute your DoS for a single damage die roll. It's an often overlooked rule that makes glancing blows much less likely (and makes Proven look even more useless).

Agreed. Someone at point blank and unaware of your presence is almost by definition helpless.

Also remember the 'degrees of success' rule - not only are you doing double damage, but you're rolling to hit with a massive bonus (point blank and a surprised/helpless target with the pistol, for example) so with a decent roll, you should be getting many degrees of success.

How does DoS help here? As far as I am aware it only really comes into play with Accurate weapons and when firing on semi or full.

Thanks for all the replies so far, I hadn't considered making the victim count as helpless.

You are allowed to substitute your DoS for a single damage die roll. It's an often overlooked rule that makes glancing blows much less likely (and makes Proven look even more useless).

Interesting, I've never seen that before. Time to browse the rulebook again!

[snip]

Aah, don't cite dandwiki if you're looking for a rules source! It's had major issues with mixing published rules with homebrew, and there exist other and more reputable locations besides. D20SRD is always a good source.

[Lengthy quote sequence]

Interesting, I've never seen that before. Time to browse the rulebook again!

It's actually been in place since RT, but I agree with CiW that it's one of several things that makes Proven rather lackluster.

Otherwise, I agree with the above consensus that damage generally doesn't need to be rolled if the munition is lethal and the PCs have already passed their stealth checks. If you're on the fence about it, you could try having them roll for a called shot to find gaps in armor, though keep in mind that any such penalties would be offset by the target being Unaware. And if they fail that, they should still roll damage. At that point they would've earned the right to a free shot, just not a lethal one.

Yeah, my group missed the DoS rule initially too. It is on the top of page 227, second paragraph:

For all attack rolls, count the degrees of success. The attacker

can replace the result on a single damage die with the number of

degrees of success from his attack roll. If the attack inflicts more

than one hit or more than one die of damage, the attacker can

replace the result on one die of his choice with the degrees of

success from the attack roll. If a natural 10 is rolled any damage

die for a given hit, the hit inflicts Righteous Fury.

~ alemander

Rule of Cool every time.

Would it be more fun if the players managed to sneak up on the guard and shanked him? **** right it's silent.

"You slip between the shadows and get within a couple of steps of the guard. He's bored - autogun slung over his shoulder, and looking like he'd very much rather be playing cards back in the barracks. Casting a couple of half-hearted glances towards the gateway, he pulls a lho-stick from his breast pocket and lights it. He's taking a healthy drag when you pounce."

Are they talking about going through a whole barracks of guards sleeping side by side, silently offing one after the other? Boo! Boring!

"You slink up to the first bed. It's too easy. Drawing the knife from your shoulder rig, you jam it into his trachea. He can't make a sound - but you weren't expecting him to flop about quite so much. The guardsman sleeping nearby's eyes flutter open in alarm. His gasps turn into a panicked scream."

Are they talking about going through a whole barracks of guards sleeping side by side, silently offing one after the other? Boo! Boring!

"You slink up to the first bed. It's too easy. Drawing the knife from your shoulder rig, you jam it into his trachea. He can't make a sound - but you weren't expecting him to flop about quite so much. The guardsman sleeping nearby's eyes flutter open in alarm. His gasps turn into a panicked scream."

I'd be wary of doing something like this. You would be effectively denying the stealthy people their opportunity to shine and there are other ways to introduce complications for the scenario. I'd be inclined to allow the players to succeed in their stealthy assassinations but have to deal with the ramifications created by a room full of dead people. Sure, they managed to kill all of the sleeping guards but what do they do with the bodies? What do they do if a patrol swings by the barracks and sounds the alarm?

I know it comes down to personal preference as a GM but having a sleeping guard thrash about in his death throes and wake up another guard would seem a bit unfair if I was a player.

Are they talking about going through a whole barracks of guards sleeping side by side, silently offing one after the other? Boo! Boring!

"You slink up to the first bed. It's too easy. Drawing the knife from your shoulder rig, you jam it into his trachea. He can't make a sound - but you weren't expecting him to flop about quite so much. The guardsman sleeping nearby's eyes flutter open in alarm. His gasps turn into a panicked scream."

I'd be wary of doing something like this. You would be effectively denying the stealthy people their opportunity to shine and there are other ways to introduce complications for the scenario. I'd be inclined to allow the players to succeed in their stealthy assassinations but have to deal with the ramifications created by a room full of dead people. Sure, they managed to kill all of the sleeping guards but what do they do with the bodies? What do they do if a patrol swings by the barracks and sounds the alarm?

I know it comes down to personal preference as a GM but having a sleeping guard thrash about in his death throes and wake up another guard would seem a bit unfair if I was a player.

A good point - that said I wouldn't just spring something like that on a player.

If they were a warrior, I would flat out warn them that experience tells them that stabbing someone tends to lead to a bit of struggle and noise. If they were a chirurgeon, I'd give them some kind of warning too. But if it's the group's lily-handed loremaster, well. There will be "complications".

Out of curiosity, why would you impose such a complication on killing someone that's completely at your mercy? If you've managed to sneak up on someone that's asleep and stab them in the heart or somewhere else that's instantly fatal, I'm failing to see how the dying person can struggle and cause a ruckus. Would you impose a similar complication if the chirurgeon administered a deadly neurotoxin or extreme dose of tranq via an injector or if someone used a properly silenced pistol to shoot them in the head?

If you're going to rule of cool a silent knife to the neck on an awake guard, why not rule of cool a silent knives in the dark murder spree in the barracks?

Out of curiosity, why would you impose such a complication on killing someone that's completely at your mercy? If you've managed to sneak up on someone that's asleep and stab them in the heart or somewhere else that's instantly fatal, I'm failing to see how the dying person can struggle and cause a ruckus. Would you impose a similar complication if the chirurgeon administered a deadly neurotoxin or extreme dose of tranq via an injector or if someone used a properly silenced pistol to shoot them in the head?

If you're going to rule of cool a silent knife to the neck on an awake guard, why not rule of cool a silent knives in the dark murder spree in the barracks?

I frame it thus: A silent kill is not completely silent. You can stick a guard silently if he's out on his own (e.g - the closest guard is on a nearby tower/guarding the next room), but you can't do it if there's another guard standing next to him. I don't care how well you rolled. If you stab someone in the neck expertly, they will die; but not without a certain amount of thrashing around. Maybe that's just the slip and scrape of boot heels in the pool of blood on the floor, but it's still a noise.

The reason I mention the barracks full of sleeping guards thing is a matter of personal experience. I was a player in a (non-DH) game where the resident powergamer/rules lawyer's super-duper stealthy assassin went on a murder spree in a barracks full of sleeping guards. He argued that because the rules said that if they were asleep (and thus he basically couldn't fail any of his stealth rolls) they were helpless, so he would be able to kill all of them silently. No more guards to worry about you guise! I kept my mouth shut, but it just seemed boring.

By that I mean with no more guards, there's no more risk for the rest of the party to play off - so no room for cunning schemes, knife-edge escapes or hair-raising adventure. Or failure either, for that matter.

TL:DR - using stealthy silent murder to knock off one guard to get through a tight spot is cool. Killing all the guards with stealthy silent murder is not. My attitude to what you can and can't do is shaped by what I and my players think makes a cool game.

Now there's a question I would like to ask. If silent takedowns or stealth kills or w/e are not your cup of tea, why involve them in your campaign at all then? Why have a barracks of sleeping guards if they're going to wake up anyway? Might as well just have standing guards and nothing else then if you ask me.

How do you guys rule quick takedowns in your games, for example if your acolytes are infiltrating an enemy camp and want to quietly take out a sentry, how do you it in a way that is satisfying and achieves their goals if they roll well?

The reason I ask is, if an acolyte sneaks into point blank range, places a silenced stub revolver on the back of the sentry's head and pulls the trigger, or perhaps slips a blade into their kidneys, that sentry should be dead. RAW that isn't going to happen.

It's on you to decide how it would work in the situation.

In times like those I take how it is narratively described over anything else.

"I put the gun right next to his skull and pull the trigger."

-"Ok, he'll die if you don't jam, so just don't roll a jam."

If there's no feasible way a person could miss their intended target and hit a point so vital to living that the person would die then just rolling to make sure a gun doesn't jam (nothing really on melee) then that's how I handle it.

For your guard situation, I'd make sure that they can actually be stabbed in the kidneys (are they unarmored? or does the penetration ignore the AP?) or if they can be shot right against the skull (Full head helmet or bucket dome without neck protection.)

If they are using a gun, I always roll for jamming, but rarely to actually hit, if they do not specifically state where they are shooting, but the person will die anyways I roll against a to hit chart.

Why have a barracks of sleeping guards if they're going to wake up anyway?

Just a few off the top of my head...

1) To provide a situation for a sneaky character to shine; perhaps to retrieve something from the room, turn a switch to unlock another area, or whatever.

2) To provide an incentive for the PC's to use quieter tactics against the guards in other parts of the locale who are on duty while also making sure that they don't raise the alarm.

3) To remind the players that their enemies aren't a bunch of evil kill-bots but are actual people who do actual people things like sleep.

4) To enhance player immersion by creating a believable locale where people eat, sleep, shower, etc.; rather than just a linear path of set pieces restricted only to those of immediate relevance to the PC's presence.

Why have a barracks of sleeping guards if they're going to wake up anyway?

Just a few off the top of my head...

1) To provide a situation for a sneaky character to shine; perhaps to retrieve something from the room, turn a switch to unlock another area, or whatever.

2) To provide an incentive for the PC's to use quieter tactics against the guards in other parts of the locale who are on duty while also making sure that they don't raise the alarm.

3) To remind the players that their enemies aren't a bunch of evil kill-bots but are actual people who do actual people things like sleep.

4) To enhance player immersion by creating a believable locale where people eat, sleep, shower, etc.; rather than just a linear path of set pieces restricted only to those of immediate relevance to the PC's presence.

Put it better than I could have Vorzakk.

I had a barracks the a group of players hit while they were sleeping in my TS/SI campaign. 1 highly trained operative and 1 newer one, both with MP5SD3. Highly skilled went right and newer one left, As they prepared to open up the Highly Skill starts making perfect shots, newer 1 jams the MP5SD3, Guard he was taargeting wakes up grabs his knife. The Newer Ops bashes the head in with the butt of his MP5SD3. More guards are waking up, and because it was to be silent, draws his knife, critical failure ends up throwing it towards his enemy, misses. Highly trained Op is mopping up their side, new op tries to clear the SMG, another crit failure. Sees a Bad guy with a assault rifle swing it towards him, as GM I am smiling as I'm about to Rock and Roll Full Auto, Blowing silent ops out the window, plus there no cover in range to protect the Op from fire. DICE GODS DECIDE GM should crit fail no rounds fired. New op panics and draws his unsilenced M1911A1 and empties it into the guy with Assault Rifle. While the Experienced Op mops up the room, looks at the newbie and puts afinger to his lips and went "Shushh we hunting terrorist" .

It was well plotted out planned attack that went horrible pie shape and caused a regular joke in the group

Why have a barracks of sleeping guards if they're going to wake up anyway?

Just a few off the top of my head...

1) To provide a situation for a sneaky character to shine; perhaps to retrieve something from the room, turn a switch to unlock another area, or whatever.

2) To provide an incentive for the PC's to use quieter tactics against the guards in other parts of the locale who are on duty while also making sure that they don't raise the alarm.

3) To remind the players that their enemies aren't a bunch of evil kill-bots but are actual people who do actual people things like sleep.

4) To enhance player immersion by creating a believable locale where people eat, sleep, shower, etc.; rather than just a linear path of set pieces restricted only to those of immediate relevance to the PC's presence.

Totally agreed. If you've got a super-sneaky ninja with no ethical issues murdering a room of sleeping guards, let him do so. The problem should not be with that, but with the consequences; another patrol finding them, watch changeover, etc.

If the players are just murdering everyone they come across, then no problem. But in that case, why are they doing so? Having the Arbites looking for a bunch of mass-murderers is often an interesting experience for the players....

Helpless works on a single guard but I can see now the problem with ruling Helpless for 20 potential enemies. I think Doctor and Angel put it best. If someone wants to kill an entire room of sleeping guards (say 20 or so), make them roll stealth with a +60 so that failure is basically limited to jamming or terrible fumbling. So make that sustained stealth check and don't catastrophically fail. That also makes it better when the dedicated stealthy character wants to knife everyone silently but the brutish warrior or bookish sage want to join in with untrained stealth.

Let the dice decide whether the characters can stealthily kill an entire sleeping barracks rather than just having people wake up to spoil things. Let patrols or a security servo skull ruin the party's fun.

...and hope that there's no named NPC with"Light Sleeper" talent mixed in with them!