More than one copy?

By midnor, in Runewars Miniatures Game

I don't think anyone is trying to over-generalize (or be hostile for that matter, hopefully I've not come across as such!)

I don't think so either, I've just disagreed in text form enough times that I like to make sure everyone knows I'm not *trying* to be a jerk. This is a good discussion and I think valid points are being made in basically every thread, I just disagree with some of the broader conclusions.

All that said, I personally doubt that FFG is going to carbon-copy their X-Wing/Armada upgrade/model distribution pattern for RuneWars. Packaging specific upgrades with specific models would seem like shooting themselves in the foot for a game with more than two factions and a large model count that has to be both assembled and painted.

I predict the very worst we'll see out of this game is a requirement to buy the core set for templates/dice/rules, and even that may change prior to Q1 2017.

I actually think this is exactly what they are going to do and it would be quite brilliant for them to do so. See the thing is that FFG is in a unique position because as you can see from posts here and many posts on this forum, there is already a fan base here. None of us have any idea what this game really is, but people are already rallying around it because its FFG. That is their strength, the great relationship they have cultivated with their customers and immense trust in their product we have as consumers. It's leverage few companies out there have in particular in the amount of consumers that FFG has.

So if they are smart they will ensure that every player that picks up Runewars will not only have good reason to buy the core set, but continue to collect not one, two or three faction but every faction they produce. They will ensure that it's always worth it to you to get everything and FFG are masters of doing that.

You will rarely find a player who plays X-Wing, Armada, Imperial Assault or any of their Living Card game that simply chooses a faction and only collects that one faction, in particular competitive players and you can bet your bottom dollar that FFG will make Runewars a spectacle organized tournament event with special limited edition cards, skulps, coins, plaques.. etc.. as rewards for participation as they do with all of their games.

Trust in the cleverness of FFG to not only attempt this, but succeed at doing it. It's going to be a very interesting second half of 2016 and first half of 2017, if this game picks up steam its going to be a runaway success but the truth is that what I do know about the miniatures community is that, the people that play Armada and X-Wing.. they play it because of the IP, because it's pre-painted and accessible, all things working against Runewars. So this first core set, the release of the rules and the first reviews are going to be absolutely critical for them for this game to succeed.

we don't KNOW that FFG is going to use the same distribution model as X-Wing and Armada

*snip*

That's very little KNOW and a whole lot of INFER.

It's certainly possible, but in my opinion FAR from guaranteed that any such distribution model will be duplicated, particularly since RuneWars is a new style of game for FFG.

It's really not a new style of game, its driven by the core concepts behind their most successful lines. Specialty dice, movement templates, cards, command dials. You could tell me nothing about this game, show me the art work and I would have guessed its an FFG game. This game is designed EXACTLY in FFG style. The only unique thing here is that the miniatures are not pre-painted and pre-assembled, other then that its standard operating procedure for them.

So this first core set, the release of the rules and the first reviews are going to be absolutely critical for them for this game to succeed.

On this, we agree completely.

Seems like there is more opportunity to purchase individual units and expansions for the amies in the ore set as well as future to be armies.

I don't think anyone is trying to over-generalize (or be hostile for that matter, hopefully I've not come across as such!)

I don't think so either, I've just disagreed in text form enough times that I like to make sure everyone knows I'm not *trying* to be a jerk. This is a good discussion and I think valid points are being made in basically every thread, I just disagree with some of the broader conclusions.

All that said, I personally doubt that FFG is going to carbon-copy their X-Wing/Armada upgrade/model distribution pattern for RuneWars. Packaging specific upgrades with specific models would seem like shooting themselves in the foot for a game with more than two factions and a large model count that has to be both assembled and painted.

I predict the very worst we'll see out of this game is a requirement to buy the core set for templates/dice/rules, and even that may change prior to Q1 2017.

You will rarely find a player who plays X-Wing, Armada, Imperial Assault or any of their Living Card game that simply chooses a faction and only collects that one faction, in particular competitive players and you can bet your bottom dollar that FFG will make Runewars a spectacle organized tournament event with special limited edition cards, skulps, coins, plaques.. etc.. as rewards for participation as they do with all of their games.

Trust in the cleverness of FFG to not only attempt this, but succeed at doing it. It's going to be a very interesting second half of 2016 and first half of 2017, if this game picks up steam its going to be a runaway success but the truth is that what I do know about the miniatures community is that, the people that play Armada and X-Wing.. they play it because of the IP, because it's pre-painted and accessible, all things working against Runewars. So this first core set, the release of the rules and the first reviews are going to be absolutely critical for them for this game to succeed.

You don't find that in FFG games because their model is set up to make that hard to do. However, you do see that in every other miniatures game, which is what the target audience for this game appears to be (it seems to be cashing in on Age of Sigmar's slow takeoff). You'll have some people jump in because of loving FFG, but I think trying to use the X-Wing/Armada model with a game targeted at miniatures gamers will be a mistake. They won't break into that audience, they'll just cannibalize some of the current miniatures players and board gamers who want to try one of their miniature games.

Basically if they rehash the X-Wing and Armada models for this, Games Workshop and other wargame miniatures companies have nothing to fear, because FFG won't be targeting their playerbase.

Edited by Shadin

A lot of minis gamers do play X-Wing along with their main game because it's prepainted (painting is important to many of them) and does not cost a lot of time or money to play casually.

"You will rarely find a player who plays X-Wing, Armada, Imperial Assault or any of their Living Card game that simply chooses a faction and only collects that one faction"

Largely because you can't, unless you're willing to forego a lot of your options for "your" faction by skipping the cards package with other faction's models. Anyone considering themselves a competitive player will not be willing to do so, though casual players certainly may.

X-Wing started with only two factions and pretty much secured buy-in from a lot of players before adding the third. Most people can find things they like about at least 2 of the factions if not all 3 because it's Star Wars, but you're strong-armed into buying multiple factions to get your upgrade cards which is tolerable only due to the small number of factions. Case in point - tonight I have a chance to win a small based ship of my choice in our local Padawan league. I only play Imperials. If I win, I am going to choose a Starviper. I will never field the ship (and wouldn't even if I played Scum), I'm only getting it for the 2xAutothruster cards and to a lesser extend the 1xAccuracy Corrector card. I would love to not have to spend money/credit buying Rebel or Scum ships just to equip my Imperials. In our Padawan league we're allowed to proxy upgrade cards, but I will not be able to do that in tournament play, and even in casual play you can't really do this long term or people grumble (it's OK for just trying stuff out though). Armada has only two factions and no suspicion of ever having a third. I'm not that familiar with Imperial Assault.

But if there are 4+ factions as there may be here, it gets worse and worse to have to buy models from all of them just to play one.

Yes that could be true, but FFG is a leader in the industry not a follower and to be fair, they have proven that the model not only works to bring in miniature gamers, but it works to create a new market out of boardgamers, role-players and just fans of the IP. I do believe you are right that it's vital for them to capture the veteran miniatures gamers, but it's not necessary vital for them to do it now and it's highly unlikely they would succeed anyway.

Warhammer players who have dozens of factions and 30 years of franchise history aren't going to jump on the band wagon of a nameless fantasy world with 2 factions and 3 different types of miniatures available. This game as it's advertised is definitely not going to pull players from playing Age of Sigmar that has hundreds of models and a dozen factions to choose from, I mean Runewars is not even the in the same league right now and its not going to be for a very long time.

So there target audience is essentially FFG fans, fans of Armada, X-Wing, Imperial Assault, general board and card gamers, anyone who might be interested in giving Runewars a try while it's a relatively washed down version of the complex and rich depth it likely will aspire to in the future and I think it's a strategy that is probably going to work quite well initially. I mean I'm probably the most least likely guy on this forum to play this game and to be frank, I will probably buy it on a whim, play the game with unpainted just because ... well I buy most FFG games.. I mean I have a shelf full of games, I would say 70% of them are FFG games.

I don't think they are foolish enough to think they can start drawing in Warhammer players on day one but they are smart to enough to recognize that new players breaking into the hobby will likely want to collect everything and try it all.

I stick by my prediction which I think has a pretty solid amount of facts to support it that this game will be modeled after X-Wing and Armada.

OK, that's a good point I hadn't yet considered. Court boardgames NOW, court minis gamers later. In some ways that does buy them some slack on number of factions and fluff. But I don't know if they can change the distribution model mid-stream after more factions are added (which is hopefully sooner rather than later anyway).

OK, that's a good point I hadn't yet considered. Court boardgames NOW, court minis gamers later. In some ways that does buy them some slack on number of factions and fluff. But I don't know if they can change the distribution model mid-stream after more factions are added (which is hopefully sooner rather than later anyway).

Well they sort of have some groundwork in place there, in a sense they did it with the Scum and Villainy faction. When it was released they created a core set just for them with all the gadgets and of course they do have the possibility to release "card sets" at any time. I think the only reason they didn't do it for x-wing and Armada is because people did and continue to buy the mini's to get the cards but if that plan would have back fired you can bet they would have corrected along those lines.

They have options in regards to adapting their model later, they have never done it before but its likely because they never needed to.

Nevermind.

Edited by VanorDM

I don't see a whole lot of miniatures players ditching 40k, 30k, AoS, Frostgrave, and others for X-Wing.

You're quite simply wrong there. A lot of people have ditched 40k and other games for X-Wing. There's always people commenting on the X-Wing and Armada boards about how they left game Y for X-Wing.

Also as of 2 months or so ago, X-Wing was selling better than 40k was.

Yeah I concur. I have been playing X-Wing and Armada since release- Armada I have played competitively and at the tournaments every single person is or was a 40k player, every single one, at every tournament. Quite literary I know only one person in my entire gaming club that isn't a former 40k player that plays Armada.

Edited by BigKahuna
I'm not that familiar with Imperial Assault.

Imperial Assault has a Command Card deck as part of your skirmish setup, but most Command Card are only packaged with a specific figure pack. It's not as brutal as X-Wing or Armada, because you virtually never need to double up on Command Cards - if I get a Grenadier card from a Rebel Troopers pack for my Stormtroopers to use, I can only ever put one Grenadier card in my deck, unlike your Autothruster/StarViper example where you might need multiple StarVipers for multiple copies of Autothrusters.

However, the other issue with Imperial Assault is that sometimes a card, or even an entire figure group that would like to double up on, might only come within a boxed expansion. In fact, there's always multiple backhurt threads over at the IA whenever a new boxed expansion comes out. I imagine the same level of backhurt when the Armada campaign expansion releases.

Well they sort of have some groundwork in place there, in a sense they did it with the Scum and Villainy faction. When it was released they created a core set just for them with all the gadgets

I don't believe the X-Wing Scum box (Most Wanted it's called I think) comes with any of the gadgetry required to play. No movement templates, no dice, no range ruler, no damage deck, no asteroid tokens. Not even a rulebook I don't think.

I'm not that familiar with Imperial Assault.

Imperial Assault has a Command Card deck as part of your skirmish setup, but most Command Card are only packaged with a specific figure pack. It's not as brutal as X-Wing or Armada, because you virtually never need to double up on Command Cards - if I get a Grenadier card from a Rebel Troopers pack for my Stormtroopers to use, I can only ever put one Grenadier card in my deck, unlike your Autothruster/StarViper example where you might need multiple StarVipers for multiple copies of Autothrusters.

However, the other issue with Imperial Assault is that sometimes a card, or even an entire figure group that would like to double up on, might only come within a boxed expansion. In fact, there's always multiple backhurt threads over at the IA whenever a new boxed expansion comes out. I imagine the same level of backhurt when the Armada campaign expansion releases.

Well they sort of have some groundwork in place there, in a sense they did it with the Scum and Villainy faction. When it was released they created a core set just for them with all the gadgets

I don't believe the X-Wing Scum box (Most Wanted it's called I think) comes with any of the gadgetry required to play. No movement templates, no dice, no range ruler, no damage deck, no asteroid tokens. Not even a rulebook I don't think.

That's right, you just got your ships and the cards and upgrades for the new faction and nothing else.

@Shadin

Well two games is enough to have one big time consuming one and a quicker one like X-Wing.

I'm not that familiar with Imperial Assault.

Imperial Assault has a Command Card deck as part of your skirmish setup, but most Command Card are only packaged with a specific figure pack. It's not as brutal as X-Wing or Armada, because you virtually never need to double up on Command Cards - if I get a Grenadier card from a Rebel Troopers pack for my Stormtroopers to use, I can only ever put one Grenadier card in my deck, unlike your Autothruster/StarViper example where you might need multiple StarVipers for multiple copies of Autothrusters.

However, the other issue with Imperial Assault is that sometimes a card, or even an entire figure group that would like to double up on, might only come within a boxed expansion. In fact, there's always multiple backhurt threads over at the IA whenever a new boxed expansion comes out. I imagine the same level of backhurt when the Armada campaign expansion releases.

Well they sort of have some groundwork in place there, in a sense they did it with the Scum and Villainy faction. When it was released they created a core set just for them with all the gadgets

I don't believe the X-Wing Scum box (Most Wanted it's called I think) comes with any of the gadgetry required to play. No movement templates, no dice, no range ruler, no damage deck, no asteroid tokens. Not even a rulebook I don't think.

Yeah Imperial Assault is just too far in the other direction. You're not even just buying models you don't want, you could potentially be buying an entire board game you don't want.

You need the Most Wanted box if you want to field a Firespray for Scum (and a normal Core for your widgets). The Firespray blister only comes with Imperial pilot cards. Same with Scum Y-Wings I *think*, and 4xY-Wings for Scum is a thing...

Thankfully they did pack TWO copies of Autothrusters with the Starviper or it would really suck.

I'm willing to buy a few things if there is good enough return on it, and I've bought a couple singles on eBay, but some things like Emperor Palpatine I just will never have because he only comes on one of the Epic ships that retails for $100.

Well they sort of have some groundwork in place there, in a sense they did it with the Scum and Villainy faction. When it was released they created a core set just for them with all the gadgets

I don't believe the X-Wing Scum box (Most Wanted it's called I think) comes with any of the gadgetry required to play. No movement templates, no dice, no range ruler, no damage deck, no asteroid tokens. Not even a rulebook I don't think.

Yes thats true and there was a considerable amount of lash back for that from new players but realistic by the time this was released we had 3rd party components available and of course the fact that overwhelming majority of people that bought into the faction where already X-wing players and had all the stuff. It wasn't really a big issue, but it is part of the model, the Scum and Villainy faction is "an extra" faction, not part of the game unless you play X-Wing which simply means that you keep up with everything, the intention of the model.

Yeah Imperial Assault is just too far in the other direction. You're not even just buying models you don't want, you could potentially be buying an entire board game you don't want.

I alternate on telling myself I'm buying a miniature wargame and getting a boardgame free on odd days, and telling myself I'm buying a boardgame and getting a miniature wargame free on even days. Helps me sleep at night.

Edited by Don_Silvarro

Nevermind.

Aw, come on Vanor. I genuinely wonder what you wrote, now.

Yeah Imperial Assault is just too far in the other direction. You're not even just buying models you don't want, you could potentially be buying an entire board game you don't want.

I alternate on telling myself I'm buying a miniature wargame and getting a boardgame free on odd days, and telling myself I'm buying a boardgame and getting a miniature wargame free on even days. Helps me sleep at night.

It helps that the expansion boxes are ~$30 and the expansion figures are ~$10.

Hard to complain too much when they're setting me back so little.

Edited by Tvayumat

It was already said in the demo video that the units from the core set will have no upgrade cards in their single boxes, so guess it's the same as X-Wing.

Of course the main difference with how it's done in X-Wing is that you're forced to buy more of what comes in the Core Set whether you want them or not because the identical standalone ship comes with different pilots/upgrades you need.

Do you know what time in the video this quote was?

Either it's not in the team covenant video or i misheard something, about 30:36 he said something about that there are different upgrades of heroes and they will have different poses, so i think this might be the heroes with different gear or at different times during their career like the epic warcasters in Warmachine.

But because they did it in X-Wing and Armada i'm quite sure we will see different upgrade cards in the single boxes of the miniatures from the core set.

One of the GenCon videos said the game scales. So, if you want big armies, you buy more. If you don't, the core may be good enough. Time to wait for the reviews!

If they're serious about this being a miniatures game to draw in that crowd, then the units in the starter set will be available on their own without a need to buy multiple starter sets (of course it may be more economical to do that anyway, see GW).

This. Also, you can buy individuals of all the X-Wing and Armada ships that are in the cores. There should be no NEED to buy more than one core, but if you want extras of everything it may be cheaper than buying multiple blisters.

Actually this is not entirely true.

In Both X-Wing and Armada, you HAVE to buy the core set, you simply cannot play the game without it. Its also worth noting that it a single core set of either game was at absolute a demo of the game, it was not the fully realized game, in the case of X-Wing even two core sets wasn't enough to make a 100 point list.

Additionally in both games if you bought just an X-Wing or Tie Expansion or an interceptor expansion but not imperial aces, you would be missing important cards both pilot and equipment.

We already know that this is the case with Runewars. 1. You can't play the game without the core set as key components only found in it are required to play. 2. The core set is only 100 points for each army, 100 short of what the target for a full army is.

So you can say that Runewars is already committed to the same format as X-Wing and Armada.

Well, I do think/hope they're rational enough to at the very least release alternative full 1v1 core sets to account for an increased number of factions.

As for their LCG and Star Wars business model: Selling off cards on the secondary market is easy enough, and LCGs are after all based on CCGs where you get stuff you don't want/need all the time as well. With Star Wars, though, they can only do this because it's a) just two (to three) factions and b) frickin' Star Wars . I am before all else a fan of the (Expanded) Universe that is equally enarmoured with the ridiculous vehicle designs of the Alliance, the Empire and various independents, as I presume is most everybody else. To think that they can do this with miniatures of multiple factions in a fantasy universe most people have never heard of - let alone promote such a scheme to veteran wargamers - just because they are "Fantasy Flight", would be outright preposterous of them (and setting themselves up for a high profile failure).

There really isn't any significant secondary market for LCGs other than for promo cards (which don't come in the packs). There *is* one for X-Wing an Armada upgrade cards though.

The whole thing with LCG is when they release an expansion you buy it and have all the options for the price of only three random chances at a card you want in a CCG. With Magic where an expansion means you might have a significant cash outlay just to get two copies of a card from the set. For instance the new Liliana card from Eldritch Moon is drifting into $50 each territory.

Having to lay out $14.95 for an entire new ship and expansion because you just have to have that one upgrade card is chump change with this stuff in comparison.

And X-wing as far as I can tell (recently getting into it) has gotten better about including upgrade cards "cross faction." They've been putting stuff originally in Imperial expansions but really desirable in later Rebel expansions and so on. It seems reasonable to me that while there will be some enticements to get stuff "outside your faction" they've also been listening to the players in regards to this and some adjustment on what is going on in X-wing and Armada will be made to this system.

As an aside if we'd all let go a bit of the need to "break stuff" as far as upgrades and lists and stuff went we'd have more fun, save some money, and find it easier to bring in and keep "new" guys. The "arms race" is part of the fun of these games but it is also one of the biggest drawbacks to them. What if FFG has finally solved that balance puzzle with this?

Aw, come on Vanor. I genuinely wonder what you wrote, now.

Basically I was going to point out that this "real miniature players won't put up with this" is nonsense. Since A lot, perhaps even the majority of X-Wing players are former 40k players.

Also there's the fact that X-Wing sells better than any other miniature game out there.

So it is naive to think FFG will change their methods because this game supposedly appeals to "real" miniature gamers, and X-Wing doesn't.

Edit: But I doubt I'll ever get into this game so I decided it wasn't worth getting involved in this argument.

Edited by VanorDM

I agree about the "real miniature gamers" approach being off the mark. Many X Wing players are former players of numerous other systems. In addition, and I say this with a hint of regret, hardcore miniature wargamers such as myself have fallen for every trick in the book. If you've even slightly dipped your Willy into Games Workshop's sales approach, you get my drift.

NOTE: I'm considering buying this game, however. I love the nuances i'm seeing within the rules. Looks like a good time.

Edited by Blutsteigen