More than one copy?

By midnor, in Runewars Miniatures Game

I wonder if you will need to buy two copies.Will be beneficial or nessicary?

If they're serious about this being a miniatures game to draw in that crowd, then the units in the starter set will be available on their own without a need to buy multiple starter sets (of course it may be more economical to do that anyway, see GW).

I would not buy two cores, you will end up with multiple useless hero's that won't be very easy to move on ebay. that perspective is based, of course, on the very limited info we have on the game at the moment.

If the core provides a decent foundation, it seems adding expansions instead would round out variety and options for unit selection. If I buy-in that will be my route.

Edited by Blutsteigen

If they're serious about this being a miniatures game to draw in that crowd, then the units in the starter set will be available on their own without a need to buy multiple starter sets (of course it may be more economical to do that anyway, see GW).

This. Also, you can buy individuals of all the X-Wing and Armada ships that are in the cores. There should be no NEED to buy more than one core, but if you want extras of everything it may be cheaper than buying multiple blisters.

If they're serious about this being a miniatures game to draw in that crowd, then the units in the starter set will be available on their own without a need to buy multiple starter sets (of course it may be more economical to do that anyway, see GW).

This. Also, you can buy individuals of all the X-Wing and Armada ships that are in the cores. There should be no NEED to buy more than one core, but if you want extras of everything it may be cheaper than buying multiple blisters.

Of course the main difference with how it's done in X-Wing is that you're forced to buy more of what comes in the Core Set whether you want them or not because the identical standalone ship comes with different pilots/upgrades you need.

If they're serious about this being a miniatures game to draw in that crowd, then the units in the starter set will be available on their own without a need to buy multiple starter sets (of course it may be more economical to do that anyway, see GW).

This. Also, you can buy individuals of all the X-Wing and Armada ships that are in the cores. There should be no NEED to buy more than one core, but if you want extras of everything it may be cheaper than buying multiple blisters.

It was already said in the demo video that the units from the core set will have no upgrade cards in their single boxes, so guess it's the same as X-Wing.

Of course the main difference with how it's done in X-Wing is that you're forced to buy more of what comes in the Core Set whether you want them or not because the identical standalone ship comes with different pilots/upgrades you need.

Edited by Iceeagle85

I might buy one and then a friend buy one and swap units for whichever side we each pick.

It was already said in the demo video that the units from the core set will have no upgrade cards in their single boxes, so guess it's the same as X-Wing.

Of course the main difference with how it's done in X-Wing is that you're forced to buy more of what comes in the Core Set whether you want them or not because the identical standalone ship comes with different pilots/upgrades you need.

Do you know what time in the video this quote was?

It was already said in the demo video that the units from the core set will have no upgrade cards in their single boxes, so guess it's the same as X-Wing.

Of course the main difference with how it's done in X-Wing is that you're forced to buy more of what comes in the Core Set whether you want them or not because the identical standalone ship comes with different pilots/upgrades you need.

Do you know what time in the video this quote was?

Sadly no, i even don't know if he sad this to the Team Covenant gyus or to someone else in the background but i'm quite sure he said it.

I might buy one and then a friend buy one and swap units for whichever side we each pick.

I was talking about RuneWars with my brother and this is the consensus we came to. If we lived in the city, we would probably buy a box each and trade units so we each had a starting army of one of the factions. The trouble is, when it comes to Terrinoth, I'm Uthuk and Latari while he is Daqan and Waiqar, so the current armies are both "his" armies. Bit of a bummer. But seeing as how we live on opposite sides of the country, this is all academic anyway.

If they're serious about this being a miniatures game to draw in that crowd, then the units in the starter set will be available on their own without a need to buy multiple starter sets (of course it may be more economical to do that anyway, see GW).

This. Also, you can buy individuals of all the X-Wing and Armada ships that are in the cores. There should be no NEED to buy more than one core, but if you want extras of everything it may be cheaper than buying multiple blisters.

Of course the main difference with how it's done in X-Wing is that you're forced to buy more of what comes in the Core Set whether you want them or not because the identical standalone ship comes with different pilots/upgrades you need.

It's the exact same way in Armada.

There are ship titles and admirals that only come in the core.

If they're serious about this being a miniatures game to draw in that crowd, then the units in the starter set will be available on their own without a need to buy multiple starter sets (of course it may be more economical to do that anyway, see GW).

This. Also, you can buy individuals of all the X-Wing and Armada ships that are in the cores. There should be no NEED to buy more than one core, but if you want extras of everything it may be cheaper than buying multiple blisters.

Of course the main difference with how it's done in X-Wing is that you're forced to buy more of what comes in the Core Set whether you want them or not because the identical standalone ship comes with different pilots/upgrades you need.

It's the exact same way in Armada.

There are ship titles and admirals that only come in the core.

Yeah, I know, just hoping that stop doing that in this game since miniatures gamers aren't going to go for that nonsense.

The Core is the one place where you could potentially get away with it, because you need to buy that anyway for your templates, rulebooks, dice, and other one-off stuff. But nowhere else should do it.

If they're serious about this being a miniatures game to draw in that crowd, then the units in the starter set will be available on their own without a need to buy multiple starter sets (of course it may be more economical to do that anyway, see GW).

This. Also, you can buy individuals of all the X-Wing and Armada ships that are in the cores. There should be no NEED to buy more than one core, but if you want extras of everything it may be cheaper than buying multiple blisters.

Of course the main difference with how it's done in X-Wing is that you're forced to buy more of what comes in the Core Set whether you want them or not because the identical standalone ship comes with different pilots/upgrades you need.

It's the exact same way in Armada.

There are ship titles and admirals that only come in the core.

Yeah, I know, just hoping that stop doing that in this game since miniatures gamers aren't going to go for that nonsense.

They both WILL and HAVE gone for that nonsense already in several cases, both in X-Wing and Armada.

It's really not that bad. When you compare these prices against what you have to buy to have a functioning 40k force, for instance, you're still spending less.

I'll happily buy models I won't use for upgrades, considering I'd still be spending more in most other miniature games. (And those models can usually be resold anyway)

They both WILL and HAVE gone for that nonsense already in several cases, both in X-Wing and Armada.

They have gotten away with it in these games because of two factors:

1. Only two factions (X-Wing added a 3rd later, but there is no sign that any more is possible in either game)

2. It's Star Wars

If this game ends up with 4+ factions that's a lot more "foreign" models to buy.

If they're serious about this being a miniatures game to draw in that crowd, then the units in the starter set will be available on their own without a need to buy multiple starter sets (of course it may be more economical to do that anyway, see GW).

This. Also, you can buy individuals of all the X-Wing and Armada ships that are in the cores. There should be no NEED to buy more than one core, but if you want extras of everything it may be cheaper than buying multiple blisters.

Of course the main difference with how it's done in X-Wing is that you're forced to buy more of what comes in the Core Set whether you want them or not because the identical standalone ship comes with different pilots/upgrades you need.

It's the exact same way in Armada.

There are ship titles and admirals that only come in the core.

Yeah, I know, just hoping that stop doing that in this game since miniatures gamers aren't going to go for that nonsense.

They both WILL and HAVE gone for that nonsense already in several cases, both in X-Wing and Armada.

It's really not that bad. When you compare these prices against what you have to buy to have a functioning 40k force, for instance, you're still spending less.

I'll happily buy models I won't use for upgrades, considering I'd still be spending more in most other miniature games. (And those models can usually be resold anyway)

I don't see a whole lot of miniatures players ditching 40k, 30k, AoS, Frostgrave, and others for X-Wing. X-Wing and Armada are also easier to swallow in this model because there's only two factions. Miniatures players want to buy models for a particular faction, not all of them. If X-Wing wasn't Star Wars and instead used an in-house science fiction universe, I don't think it'd have anywhere near the following it does.

Please nobody read my tone as hostile here, because it isn't. I feel this necessary to note because, ya know, text.

I hear a lot about "What miniature gamers want" and "what miniature gamers will do" without any quantification of who actually falls under that umbrella, and with no real substance to back that up. Gamers, tabletop in particular, are a hugely diverse group of people playing for an even more diverse spectrum of reasons. For some, it's the minis themselves, for others, it's the rules of the game, for yet more, it's the community the game has, and the list goes on.

Saying that X-Wing and Armada succeeded based solely on the IP, or the fact that they only have two factions, is reductive. Those games succeeded on a combination of factors including model quality, organized play support, quality of rules, balance of game expansions (which has been both good and bad in equal measure), and others. As for players only wanting to buy models for a specific faction, firstly we don't KNOW that FFG is going to use the same distribution model as X-Wing and Armada, and secondly there are PLENTY of gamers who will happily collect models from multiple factions, particularly if they are priced reasonably. I've seen it happen just because people like to collect, and get no upgrade card bonus for their troubles.

For SOME the IP made the choice for them, certainly, but let's not pretend that FFG hasn't earned a reputation for creating simple but nuanced, easily accessible but surprisingly deep gaming experiences over the last few years. They ABSOLUTELY have, and people see this.

Arguably, X-Wing wouldn't have gotten the huge boost it did without Star Wars, but that's irrelevant now, because it DID succeed, it IS succeeding, and that success reflects positively on FFG, not Star Wars, not Disney, but FFG themselves. That reputation is hugely significant. That reputation has ME holding off on several other fantasy wargame systems that look promising and have great models (Wrath of Kings for instance) and waiting on the release of RuneWars to decide which I'll really put effort into.

As for whether or not gamers will jump ship from one game or another TO this one, there are a huge number of factors there that are completely independent of any question of game quality. 40k and 30k come to mind insofar as people won't switch from those, not because the game isn't good enough to switch, but because they've ALREADY INVESTED decades or more of time(40k) and thousands to tens-of-thousands of dollars(30k/40k) into models. Those players will bite that bullet all the way down or, in some cases, swap to a game that lets them at least use the same models, thus the success of Kings of War in the wake of the death of WHFB.

RuneWars seems as if it'll actually provide a nice outlet for many WHFB refugees. Perhaps not quite as welcoming as KoW, but their miniatures will be easily used to expand formation options among generic units like human cavalry and skeletons/zombies.

I'm really not worried about those gamers, though.

What I think about are the HUGE number of players who've considered games like 40k of AoS, getting on the fence but not teetering over because the rule systems are either too obscure or so old and bloated that the task of becoming a reasonable competitor is too daunting to keep up any measure of enthusiasm. RuneWars seems to be a remarkably well-crafted olive branch to those very players, and I look forward to what I imagine to be a very successful release. Admittedly, Age of Sigmar is about as casually accessible as any tabletop wargame comes right now, but there is a great deal of back-and-forth over whether that accessibility came at the cost of depth.

I, personally, will be spreading word of this game locally and building a player-base prior to release so we can get tournaments rolling right out of the gate, because if ANYTHING sells players on a game, it's the availability of competition and the perceived activity of the community.

Edited by Tvayumat

If they're serious about this being a miniatures game to draw in that crowd, then the units in the starter set will be available on their own without a need to buy multiple starter sets (of course it may be more economical to do that anyway, see GW).

This. Also, you can buy individuals of all the X-Wing and Armada ships that are in the cores. There should be no NEED to buy more than one core, but if you want extras of everything it may be cheaper than buying multiple blisters.

Actually this is not entirely true.

In Both X-Wing and Armada, you HAVE to buy the core set, you simply cannot play the game without it. Its also worth noting that it a single core set of either game was at absolute a demo of the game, it was not the fully realized game, in the case of X-Wing even two core sets wasn't enough to make a 100 point list.

Additionally in both games if you bought just an X-Wing or Tie Expansion or an interceptor expansion but not imperial aces, you would be missing important cards both pilot and equipment.

We already know that this is the case with Runewars. 1. You can't play the game without the core set as key components only found in it are required to play. 2. The core set is only 100 points for each army, 100 short of what the target for a full army is.

So you can say that Runewars is already committed to the same format as X-Wing and Armada.

I agree that X-Wing and Armada succeeded on more than just IP, I just feel that with the distribution model it wouldn't have been as wildly popular as it is without the IP. They're both good games but they definitely got a boost.

And I don't think anyone is trying to over-generalize (or be hostile for that matter, hopefully I've not come across as such!), but I think in a broad-stroke you can break tabletop down into three main categories of board gaming, miniatures gaming, and role-playing. I know there's a thousand variations of each one even in each category and the lines can get blurry, but for the purposes of discussion I feel like it's accurate enough.

I've always wanted to get into a miniatures game more than just casually, but have never quite had the time or finances. When X-Wing launched I bought a couple of cores and checked it out, but the distribution model killed it. I wanted to be an Imperial player, I had no interest in owning or purchasing Rebel ships, but the model dictated I had to go all in to get a complete set of the rules (pilots/upgrades). What I liked about miniatures games was that the minis themselves are separated from the rules, I could pick the faction I like, buy the models to assemble/paint, and it has this great sense of thematic identity.

Now that I've had more time and money I started practicing painting some 40k models and have been looking for a game. I didn't really like AoS or 40k proper so was looking at HOR Kill Team or 30k. This announcement has me excited because I'd prefer a fantasy genre, but if they distribute in a board game or LCG fashion of collect-everything, that's going to kill it for me as I want the distribution model attributed to miniatures games.

You know you don't actually have to buy every single ship to play xwing competitively. That's a lie. Lots of upgrades are available in multiple expansions. Trade with friends. Buy singles. Buy the ship, sell the model and cards. Borrow the cards you wanna use if it is for a tournament. Proxy it otherwise. Etc etc.

I don't see a whole lot of miniatures players ditching 40k, 30k, AoS, Frostgrave, and others for X-Wing. X-Wing and Armada are also easier to swallow in this model because there's only two factions. Miniatures players want to buy models for a particular faction, not all of them. If X-Wing wasn't Star Wars and instead used an in-house science fiction universe, I don't think it'd have anywhere near the following it does.

Why do they have to ditch their games for X-Wing? Many play more than one system and many own more than one faction for the game(s) they play.

I don't think anyone is trying to over-generalize (or be hostile for that matter, hopefully I've not come across as such!)

I don't think so either, I've just disagreed in text form enough times that I like to make sure everyone knows I'm not *trying* to be a jerk. This is a good discussion and I think valid points are being made in basically every thread, I just disagree with some of the broader conclusions.

All that said, I personally doubt that FFG is going to carbon-copy their X-Wing/Armada upgrade/model distribution pattern for RuneWars. Packaging specific upgrades with specific models would seem like shooting themselves in the foot for a game with more than two factions and a large model count that has to be both assembled and painted.

I predict the very worst we'll see out of this game is a requirement to buy the core set for templates/dice/rules, and even that may change prior to Q1 2017.

Edited by Tvayumat

we don't KNOW that FFG is going to use the same distribution model as X-Wing and Armada

I actually think we do know that with a pretty fair amount of certainty, its really unlikely they would do a different model at this point.

1. Its a core set with 2 armies that has the rules and all required components to play the game. This means that without the core set, you cannot play this game same as X-wing and Armada. Its highly unlikely they will ever release anything that would compete with the sales of the core set which is the case with X-Wing and Armada, they have ensured that in order to gain entry into the game you MUST buy a core set.

2. We know that the armies are both 100 points short of a full 200 point standard army which means upon release if you want to play a full game you need to buy 2 core sets or wait for expansions, again same as X-wing and Armada. This ensures most people will do it and they will ensure the delay of the expansions is just long enough to entice people who get into the game to buy that second expansion.

3. We know that each army has cards, which sets the game up for simultaneous model and card collecting, the standard practice in X-wing and Armada.

4. The standard practice for miniature games has been announce core set, release core set while simultaneously announcing 1st wave. They have already done step 1 of that process, I don't see how they could go in a different direction at this point. For example they couldn't release an alternative "one faction core set", as this would put people in a situation of buying one or the other, which makes absolutely no economic sense. If they were planning that, there would be two core sets one for each army. They will probably do this for future factions as they did when they added a faction to X-Wing, but even then because of card collecting if you didn't buy the core set, you were pretty much playing at a disadvantage when facing opponents that have. Again Runewars is already setup for this.

Truth is that they had the same opportunity for X-Wing and Armada to create a single faction set for each faction but they knew that if they did that players would buy and ultimately collect one or the other faction not both. Selling it as a package means you have a start to both faction collecting and you are much more likely to ultimately collect both factions and because of the card system if you wanted to be competitive you kind of had to do that to get certain cards. X-Wings and Armadas economic success is driven partially by this model and to do it any other way would mean that FFG would effectively make less money both short term and long term. It would be foolish.

So ... next up for Runewars is the Wave I announcement, I guarantee it!

Edited by BigKahuna

we don't KNOW that FFG is going to use the same distribution model as X-Wing and Armada

*snip*

That's very little KNOW and a whole lot of INFER.

It's certainly possible, but in my opinion FAR from guaranteed that any such distribution model will be duplicated, particularly since RuneWars is a new style of game for FFG.

You know you don't actually have to buy every single ship to play xwing competitively. That's a lie. Lots of upgrades are available in multiple expansions. Trade with friends. Buy singles. Buy the ship, sell the model and cards. Borrow the cards you wanna use if it is for a tournament. Proxy it otherwise. Etc etc.

I don't want to have to coordinate group sales, buy/sell on eBay, or print proxies just to have a complete set of rules to use with the models for a game. I'd rather they do what other miniatures games do and simply sell models and rules separately.

I don't see a whole lot of miniatures players ditching 40k, 30k, AoS, Frostgrave, and others for X-Wing. X-Wing and Armada are also easier to swallow in this model because there's only two factions. Miniatures players want to buy models for a particular faction, not all of them. If X-Wing wasn't Star Wars and instead used an in-house science fiction universe, I don't think it'd have anywhere near the following it does.

Why do they have to ditch their games for X-Wing? Many play more than one system and many own more than one faction for the game(s) they play.

I guess it varies by area and players, most of the people here I meet usually have one or two games max because of the expense and time requirements for miniatures games.