I see the repeat argument that Loku's ability is 2 strain for one damage and that is just not exactly accurate. If he activates at the start of his turn placing a token thats is a potential damage bonus of 8 that round (if every rebel attacks the same fig 2x) I know that is not likely but what is very likely is each rebel attacking the same threat at least once (4 damage bones on that round). even if he applies the token at the end of his turn that will still stay there until that unit is dead, which means for 2 strain it has an extremely high potential. Using it on a storm trooper is clearly the wrong play but anything that will take multiple attacks provides the return. I am not saying he is good or bad I just wanted to clear up the 1 damage for 2 strain thing that is being pushed.

Well, just played a game where Loku + Death Hammer + Tactical Display one-shot each of my HK's from 6 spaces away... so I think he's at least half decent with the right items

No other attack buffs either, just the recon token on the first one and pure damage on the second.

Edit: I forgot, he did have his +1 accuracy class card. So he had a minimum of 5 accuracy, with the option to use tac display for the 3 accuracy surge.

So, are we arguing that Loku is not terrible or are we arguing that he is top tier.

Because it seems to me that different people are arguing different things.

Loku is fine in a party because he can do his job, and that is kill things.

But he is not top tier because there are other class A characters can also kill things, either more efficiently, more often, or have a similar rate of kills but are more survivable. Honesty, I guess he is more like class B+, since he is better than clear class B characters like Biv.

So, are we arguing that Loku is not terrible or are we arguing that he is top tier.

Because it seems to me that different people are arguing different things.

Loku is fine in a party because he can do his job, and that is kill things.

But he is not top tier because there are other tier 1 characters can also kill things, either more efficiently, more often, or have a similar rate of kills but are more survivable.

I wouldn't say he's the best, but I think he's as 'top tier' as any of the other heroes that people have been throwing around. Loku is more situational than a hero like Fenn or Diala, but that doesn't make him worse.

Every hero, Loku included, has their own pros and cons, and I'm not sure that you can really simplify it down to "his role is killing but other people do it better". In a mission where your goal is to kill a particular figure then I would say that Loku is hands down the best hero in the game. You spend two strain once and then every single attack on Vader/Weiss/RGC/whoever for the rest of the mission gets a +1 damage bump. As others have pointed out, with the right (cheap) upgrade you don't even need to worry about line of sight. That's huge! But what was Loku's role here? Was it to kill things? Well, sort of - he probably got off an attack or two because of his accuracy - but even more useful was his ability to support the other heroes in their attacks.

If I had to pick a "best" hero it would probably be Gideon (at least once he gets to 4XP). But even he's only as good as your next strongest hero - if your team was Gideon, Murne, Saska and MDH then he's not going to be very useful at all. Saska is one that I see thrown around a lot as one of the worst heroes, but in missions that require a whole bunch of attribute checks she's a beast that can single-handedly win the whole thing. MDH isn't going to be taking down any boss characters, but in a mission where your goal is to survive or to keep an ally alive he's a huge asset.

I guess what I'm saying is that the question, "which group of 4 heroes is the best", isn't really one that has a quick answer. If you're looking for heroes that will perform pretty well in every single mission then, yes, your Dialas, Fenns and Gideons are going to do that. But in certain missions you'd have been better off with a Loku or an MDH, it really just depends on what you end up playing in the campaign.

The easiest comparison is Loku vs Mak. Mak is easily a Class A character.

Abilities:

Set your sights with Spectrum scanner will often usually net you 2 damage. Either on 2 different units or 2 damage on a single higher HP unit. It does excel on rare enemies such as massive units and bosses.

Ambush, while slighy more restrictive (and hard to use while wounded) will generally give 1-2 damage for 1 strain.

Clear minded gives a lot of versatility while covert gives survability (especially when combined with Disengage)

Stats:

Loku has +1 speed over Mak, Mak has slightly better attribute tests.

Class Decks:

Loku generally looks like this: Spectrum Scanner, Mon Cala Sp. Forces, Study of Enemies, Overwatch, Scouting Report/Combat Spotter (or both 1 xp and no overwatch)

Mak generally looks like this: Disengage, Jeswandi Training, No Escape, Expertise/Execute, Target Aquired. (If the group does well and gets 13xp, Mak can get both 3 xp).

So, both can get +2 hp (tho Loku gets +evade), both have access to focus, both can remove los restrictions, both can regen strain, both can get a free interact, Mak gets an extra bonus focused attack for 2 strain, while Loku can save an extra action for a free attack later. All of these in slightly different flavours and not all of them at once.

Mission Rewards:

Loku's reward significantly buffs Set your sights whereas Mak's removes the restrictiveness of ambush as well as gives + evade.

The 2 of them are very similar, but Mak pulls ahead in 2 areas. Mak is much harder to wound due to covert & disengage. Also, because of No Escape, Mak will out dps Loku. An extra focused attack will beat Set your Sights every time, even against the biggest of bosses. Overwatch doesnt really compare since it is highly situational, and only rarely nets you a "bonus" action. Loku does have an edge in speed and versatility but it does really make up the difference.

It is for those reasons, I dont think they belong in the same class. Against heroes like Jyn or Gaarkhan, it is harder to compare but 9 times out of 10, each of their 2 strain abilites, which provide an extra action and can also be buffed by their class deck, will provide a greater overall benefit than Set your Sights.

Again, I am not saying Loku is bad, he is fine and competitive but he is not as good as the base heroes in general.

Just something small you missed: Mak can ignore line of sight only on one attack per round. Loku can allow all rebel attacks to ignore line of sight to each figure with a recon token.

Just something small you missed: Mak can ignore line of sight only on one attack per round. Loku can allow all rebel attacks to ignore line of sight to each figure with a recon token.

I wasnt going into the small nitpicky details. Some of those things Loku does slightly better and some Mak does slightly better. And the LoS skills are probably the most situational and least relevant.

Said it before, but I think loku will be helpful with the rangers. He can more our less enable them to sit at range and pound away on a target, acting as a sort of artillery, while the rest of the team deals with everything else.

I wasnt going into the small nitpicky details. Some of those things Loku does slightly better and some Mak does slightly better. And the LoS skills are probably the most situational and least relevant.

Tell that to Jyn's Quick Draw.

Looking over the class cards again I realized Loku has one of the very few abilities that actually add attack dice without focus. It's kinda crazy to think about, but you could actually have a BGGRRR attack. Use Davith, while injured, using the ancient lightsaber, focused, plus Loku's coordinated attack to add a red, plus falling leaf, and spending a device token and activating power converter to swap the yellow for another red. Max 16 damage + surge.

Anyway all that to say that Loku has the interesting distinction of being able to add die to an attack (though I kinda think the 2 strain cost is a bit much, it's a 4xp skill so it would be perfectly fine to be able to use it every turn with minimal cost).

There's a thread on BGG looking at exactly that - how to get the most damage in a single attack. Not sure where it is; I'll have to look for it.

I just finished a campaign as an Imperial player. I played with imperial might against Fenn, Jyn, Gaarkhan, diala. To be honest I felt like the game was mine to win or lose the whole time. In other words, unless I turned my brain off I was going to win. Biggest thing was planning what I was going to deploy when. For example, knowing that you will have enough for an elite eweb deployment on the same turn that has event spawning some other units.

I say that as a preface to a counter about Fenn's value. While he is very powerful, I found him very easy to counter. Just dont clump up your units. Sometimes that takes a little creativity but its almost always doable. I had him figured out about 3 missions in and he was never a problem from then on. I still would often target him first just so I wouldnt have to worry about it. He does however make imperial gaurd not useful for their price.

Diala was slightly more tricky to counter. IE not leaving a hole in your formation that she can move to and sarlaac everyone. Mostly I could just hug corners with my guys, pop around and shoot, then move back. Forcing them to spend movement to go after you.

For jyn, it was simply a matter of moving guys in her line of sight last. Or if Fenn had already gone, moving a unit that wasnt in her LOS directly in front of the ones that were.

The end result of using these tactics was to turn all the heroes into single target characters. That meant that cheap units like stormtroopers had a lot more value. Which in turn fell into the advantages of imperial might class deck.

Havent played the expansions so I cant speak to those heroes.

If you're not using Lokus Set Your Sights at the beginning of your activation, you're not getting his best performance. Yes, that means you have to be thinking about the next turn and maximizing his LOS whenever you end his activation, which is different from other heroes that play by the seat of their pants.

I just finished a campaign as an Imperial player. I played with imperial might against Fenn, Jyn, Gaarkhan, diala. To be honest I felt like the game was mine to win or lose the whole time. In other words, unless I turned my brain off I was going to win. Biggest thing was planning what I was going to deploy when. For example, knowing that you will have enough for an elite eweb deployment on the same turn that has event spawning some other units.

I say that as a preface to a counter about Fenn's value. While he is very powerful, I found him very easy to counter. Just dont clump up your units. Sometimes that takes a little creativity but its almost always doable. I had him figured out about 3 missions in and he was never a problem from then on. I still would often target him first just so I wouldnt have to worry about it. He does however make imperial gaurd not useful for their price.

Diala was slightly more tricky to counter. IE not leaving a hole in your formation that she can move to and sarlaac everyone. Mostly I could just hug corners with my guys, pop around and shoot, then move back. Forcing them to spend movement to go after you.

For jyn, it was simply a matter of moving guys in her line of sight last. Or if Fenn had already gone, moving a unit that wasnt in her LOS directly in front of the ones that were.

The end result of using these tactics was to turn all the heroes into single target characters. That meant that cheap units like stormtroopers had a lot more value. Which in turn fell into the advantages of imperial might class deck.

Havent played the expansions so I cant speak to those heroes.

Gaarkhan over Gideon really handicapped your players, they must be either new or wanted a challenge with that decision. A lot of what you described works well against newer players, but having played multiple campaigns against the same group now I've had all of that countered. Fenn's blast is only a small fraction of his abilities, being able to assign or use 2 movement points every turn is just out of hand. Move 2, strain 1, recover with lone wolf, 2 actions left.. ya. Gideon's command is really where Fenn's massive Blue/Green/Yellow attack shines though, 4 shots and 7 total movement points between the two in 2 turns is a little OP. Add in trench fighter and/or some add ons for his weapon and he can basically take anything down and in a hurry.

Diala isn't necessarily meant to be a power house offensively, her best abilities come in the utility. Movement and being able to pass through players/difficult terrain, re rolls for attacks, defense and ability tests for herself and others. This is where she shines. If your team was trying to play her as an all out damage dealer then they definitely wasted potential, especially with Fenn and Gaarkhan on the squad. I am also guessing that your Jyn didn't take or know how to properly use Trick Shot?

But overall the game is 100% tilted towards the Imperial player, so you should definitely always feel in control. But good Rebel players will make you have to think and will adapt to your play style as you try to adapt to theirs, sounds like your players were stumped by a few movement patterns.

I just finished a campaign as an Imperial player. I played with imperial might against Fenn, Jyn, Gaarkhan, diala. To be honest I felt like the game was mine to win or lose the whole time. In other words, unless I turned my brain off I was going to win. Biggest thing was planning what I was going to deploy when. For example, knowing that you will have enough for an elite eweb deployment on the same turn that has event spawning some other units.

I say that as a preface to a counter about Fenn's value. While he is very powerful, I found him very easy to counter. Just dont clump up your units. Sometimes that takes a little creativity but its almost always doable. I had him figured out about 3 missions in and he was never a problem from then on. I still would often target him first just so I wouldnt have to worry about it. He does however make imperial gaurd not useful for their price.

Diala was slightly more tricky to counter. IE not leaving a hole in your formation that she can move to and sarlaac everyone. Mostly I could just hug corners with my guys, pop around and shoot, then move back. Forcing them to spend movement to go after you.

For jyn, it was simply a matter of moving guys in her line of sight last. Or if Fenn had already gone, moving a unit that wasnt in her LOS directly in front of the ones that were.

The end result of using these tactics was to turn all the heroes into single target characters. That meant that cheap units like stormtroopers had a lot more value. Which in turn fell into the advantages of imperial might class deck.

Havent played the expansions so I cant speak to those heroes.

Gaarkhan over Gideon really handicapped your players, they must be either new or wanted a challenge with that decision. A lot of what you described works well against newer players, but having played multiple campaigns against the same group now I've had all of that countered. Fenn's blast is only a small fraction of his abilities, being able to assign or use 2 movement points every turn is just out of hand. Move 2, strain 1, recover with lone wolf, 2 actions left.. ya. Gideon's command is really where Fenn's massive Blue/Green/Yellow attack shines though, 4 shots and 7 total movement points between the two in 2 turns is a little OP. Add in trench fighter and/or some add ons for his weapon and he can basically take anything down and in a hurry.

Diala isn't necessarily meant to be a power house offensively, her best abilities come in the utility. Movement and being able to pass through players/difficult terrain, re rolls for attacks, defense and ability tests for herself and others. This is where she shines. If your team was trying to play her as an all out damage dealer then they definitely wasted potential, especially with Fenn and Gaarkhan on the squad. I am also guessing that your Jyn didn't take or know how to properly use Trick Shot?

But overall the game is 100% tilted towards the Imperial player, so you should definitely always feel in control. But good Rebel players will make you have to think and will adapt to your play style as you try to adapt to theirs, sounds like your players were stumped by a few movement patterns.

Ya you missed the point. High single target damage means little when your fielding cheap stuff. Assuming that my players are bad is just low class.

Once the rebels can one-shot any figure, a clever IP will switch to cheap figures.

Hah, low class? You come in here talking about how easy the game is and I call you out on your build because of it but can't take the criticism?

No offense was meant, but when you make a statement like this:

To be honest I felt like the game was mine to win or lose the whole time. In other words, unless I turned my brain off I was going to win

I have to think something is wrong with your Rebels and/or you are being cocky, so you need to be prepared to defend statements like that to a veteran crowd.

Fielding cheap stuff is good for a while, but there are always maps where you start with elites or have a unique to use (Vader, Weiss, IG-88, RGC etc..) and you can't avoid getting hit hard. You need to utilize the starting troops as they are meant to be part of the 'balance' of the map.

I just finished a campaign as an Imperial player. I played with imperial might against Fenn, Jyn, Gaarkhan, diala. To be honest I felt like the game was mine to win or lose the whole time. In other words, unless I turned my brain off I was going to win. Biggest thing was planning what I was going to deploy when. For example, knowing that you will have enough for an elite eweb deployment on the same turn that has event spawning some other units.

I say that as a preface to a counter about Fenn's value. While he is very powerful, I found him very easy to counter. Just dont clump up your units. Sometimes that takes a little creativity but its almost always doable. I had him figured out about 3 missions in and he was never a problem from then on. I still would often target him first just so I wouldnt have to worry about it. He does however make imperial gaurd not useful for their price.

Diala was slightly more tricky to counter. IE not leaving a hole in your formation that she can move to and sarlaac everyone. Mostly I could just hug corners with my guys, pop around and shoot, then move back. Forcing them to spend movement to go after you.

For jyn, it was simply a matter of moving guys in her line of sight last. Or if Fenn had already gone, moving a unit that wasnt in her LOS directly in front of the ones that were.

The end result of using these tactics was to turn all the heroes into single target characters. That meant that cheap units like stormtroopers had a lot more value. Which in turn fell into the advantages of imperial might class deck.

Havent played the expansions so I cant speak to those heroes.

Gaarkhan over Gideon really handicapped your players, they must be either new or wanted a challenge with that decision. A lot of what you described works well against newer players, but having played multiple campaigns against the same group now I've had all of that countered. Fenn's blast is only a small fraction of his abilities, being able to assign or use 2 movement points every turn is just out of hand. Move 2, strain 1, recover with lone wolf, 2 actions left.. ya. Gideon's command is really where Fenn's massive Blue/Green/Yellow attack shines though, 4 shots and 7 total movement points between the two in 2 turns is a little OP. Add in trench fighter and/or some add ons for his weapon and he can basically take anything down and in a hurry.

Diala isn't necessarily meant to be a power house offensively, her best abilities come in the utility. Movement and being able to pass through players/difficult terrain, re rolls for attacks, defense and ability tests for herself and others. This is where she shines. If your team was trying to play her as an all out damage dealer then they definitely wasted potential, especially with Fenn and Gaarkhan on the squad. I am also guessing that your Jyn didn't take or know how to properly use Trick Shot?

But overall the game is 100% tilted towards the Imperial player, so you should definitely always feel in control. But good Rebel players will make you have to think and will adapt to your play style as you try to adapt to theirs, sounds like your players were stumped by a few movement patterns.

Ya you missed the point. High single target damage means little when your fielding cheap stuff. Assuming that my players are bad is just low class.

You start off by saying they're bad by the fact that you had complete control... Or was that you beating your chest and saying how utterly amazing you are? So it's not assumed. Also your descriptions are pretty much those of bad players.

Diala taking Sarlacc when she's the only support character in the party is silly. There was a complete lack of teamwork going on if Diala was even attacking let alone getting Sarlacc and wasting credits needed by other characters to buy her a better weapon.

As Frog pointed out, Gaarkhan over Gideon seriously weakens that party. Gaarkhan is also strain heavy and no one in the party can relieve that, It's not a party experienced players would make unless they're intentionally making it hard on themselves.

Your description of how to shut down Jynn shows they can't position or choose activations properly, you can't shut down Jynn's ability if your players aren't bad. This is triply true with both Diala, who can throw Jyn, and Fenn, who can move her two, in the party. If she doesn't get an extra attack almost every round, your players aren't doing it right. If she's completely shut down, then they should really be playing a less complicated game.

Your ability to "not clump up" your units is impossible as you can't not clump them when deploying. Fenn can cover 8 squares and still get a shot off, or 4 and get two off, which is more than enough to almost always guarantee he'll be able to hit your new deployment before they can activate. If you had Gideon in the party, Fenn could move 8 in a round, take 3 attacks and get a bonus surge when it is needed. This usually makes the Imperial player throw dice across the room, jump up and down, cry, or all 3.

I wasnt going into the small nitpicky details. Some of those things Loku does slightly better and some Mak does slightly better. And the LoS skills are probably the most situational and least relevant.

Tell that to Jyn's Quick Draw.

The real problem with Jyn's Quick Draw is that she doesn't get to ready her cards until she activates in a given round. So, yeah, she's probably the "C" tier character in the game (or Tier 3 if you prefer the numerical scale - whatever scale you pick, she's Bantha Poodoo. I don't think anyone in our group will EVER play her again. Yeesh...)

I wasnt going into the small nitpicky details. Some of those things Loku does slightly better and some Mak does slightly better. And the LoS skills are probably the most situational and least relevant.

Tell that to Jyn's Quick Draw.

The real problem with Jyn's Quick Draw is that she doesn't get to ready her cards until she activates in a given round. So, yeah, she's probably the "C" tier character in the game (or Tier 3 if you prefer the numerical scale - whatever scale you pick, she's Bantha Poodoo. I don't think anyone in our group will EVER play her again. Yeesh...)

If I understand you correctly here, you think that Class Cards only become readied at the beginning of that figure's activation? In that case, I have good news! The second step in the Status Phase at the end of each round readies EVERYTHING that has been exhausted by all players. So, whenever a new round starts, everything on the board is readied and ready to rumble (unless it gets exhausted again during the Status Phase, for instance, like "Explosive Entry" in the Armored Onslaught IP Class deck.)

Or am I misunderstanding you?

In that case, I have good news! The second step in the Status Phase at the end of each round readies EVERYTHING that has been exhausted by all players.

I have bad news!

Only imperial cards, all deployment cards, and the activation tokens of heroes ready during the ready step of the status phase. The class and item cards of each hero ready at the beginning of their activation.

2. Ready: The Imperial player readies all of his exhausted Class

and Deployment cards. Each hero also readies all of his

activation tokens by flipping them green-side faceup.

-- Hero Class cards and Item cards are readied at the start of

that hero's activation, not during the Status Phase.

In that case, I have good news! The second step in the Status Phase at the end of each round readies EVERYTHING that has been exhausted by all players.

I have bad news!

Only imperial cards, all deployment cards, and the activation tokens of heroes ready during the ready step of the status phase. The class and item cards of each hero ready at the beginning of their activation.

Wow! I can't believe I didn't get that?! Geez, that has made such a big difference in many, many games. Holy crap, are my rebel players in for a surprise tonight, when we play "Disaster"... thanks for the catch, a1bert. But that turned my good news into bad news.. :-(

It's not really that bad. The rebels can get one 'free' use of class and item cards before they activate on the first round.

The rule is really because of 3- and 2-hero games where a hero can have more than one activation token.

It's not really that bad. The rebels can get one 'free' use of class and item cards before they activate on the first round.

The rule is really because of 3- and 2-hero games where a hero can have more than one activation token.

Yeah, we've just had heroes use ready their armor cards or whatever, so they could use it again regardless of who activated first, when I attacked them. ****, I still can't believe it. Do you know where it says that in the rules? I'd like to have something to show the heroes to preempt the bickering.. :-) Is it simply in the Basic Rules/Tutorial Booklet?

See my edit above. It's right there in Status Phase.