Pics for Reference:

Given that the generics of these guys have the same points value, group size, health, speed and defense as Elite Stormtroopers (arguably one of the very best units in the game) and have the Trooper trait (tons of good cards - obviously Reinforcements) and the Hunter trait (which will certainly get a boost from this Wave) - won't these guys be pretty darn good, and could be spammed? And I suppose they don't have Squad Training or Last Stand, but they've still got Surge for +2 dmg and are 3 5HP guys etc etc

Maybe their drawback will be that it's actually pretty difficult to always be 5 spaces away and still have LoS a lot of the time?

Maybe their drawback will be that it's actually pretty difficult to always be 5 spaces away and still have LoS a lot of the time?

You don't need to be 5 spaces away, thats not what the Sniper ability is for. If you're further away and miss, you get to re-roll a blue for a good chance to get a better accuracy at lower damage. But nearer, you'll always hit. Their auto +1 accuracy plus blue blue means that the minumum will always be 5 spaces. Their drawback is the blue blue is less damage than other alternatives.

I'm not sold on the elites, but regulars are great. After the Royal Guard errata, these are the only non-unique grey unit with a +2DMG surge. That alone, even in a vacuum, makes them significant since it breaks one of the unwritten rules of unit balance.

I predict these will be very playable and will probably flat out replace Rebel Troopers. We all know eStormtroopers are one of the best/most efficent units in the game. These guys are 90% comparable, though a bit less consistent in damage output, to eStormtroopers, but you can take more of them on account of being regular AND they come with an extra trait that's bound to get a lot of action in the next wave.

rAlliance Rangers

rAlliance Rangers

rAlliance Rangers

eRebel Sabs

Gideon on a Mission

Threepio

or, for more trait balance and more Blast/Stun access:

rAlliance Rangers

rAlliance Rangers

eRebel Sabs

eRebel Sabs

Gideon on a Mission

Threepio

Rebel High Command/rAlliance Smuggler

These will be a thing.

Exactly, double blue is not very good for damage. They need to 1) defeat a figure to gain Hidden, 2) survive to next round, 3) then their attack is very good.

However, the Sniper ability allows them to take long-range shots so that they have better chances at surviving. And, they are naturally good at finishing almost defeated figures, which comboes well with Guerilla.

They won't be easy to play though due to the extra steps needed to make the most of them.

I'm not sold on the elites, but regulars are great. After the Royal Guard errata, these are the only non-unique grey unit with a +2DMG surge. That alone, even in a vacuum, makes them significant since it breaks one of the unwritten rules of unit balance.

I predict these will be very playable and will probably flat out replace Rebel Troopers. We all know eStormtroopers are one of the best/most efficent units in the game. These guys are 90% comparable, though a bit less consistent in damage output, to eStormtroopers, but you can take more of them on account of being regular AND they come with an extra trait that's bound to get a lot of action in the next wave.

rAlliance Rangers

rAlliance Rangers

rAlliance Rangers

eRebel Sabs

Gideon on a Mission

Threepio

or, for more trait balance and more Blast/Stun access:

rAlliance Rangers

rAlliance Rangers

eRebel Sabs

eRebel Sabs

Gideon on a Mission

Threepio

Rebel High Command/rAlliance Smuggler

These will be a thing.

This!

You basically took my OP, made it better and put it into better words

2 blue dice isn't very good for damage though

2 blue dice isn't very good for damage though

It's pretty decent (albeit admittedly less consistent than green/blue) when you factor in access to both a 2DMG and a Pierce 1 surge, with built-in Hide and re-roll mechanics and easy access to Focus on account of being Rebels.

Most you can roll on an eStormtrooper is 2DMG on one die and a DMG and a surge on the other for 3DMG and surge, which amounts to 5 damage.

Most you can roll on a rRanger is the exact same, but you can also do 1DMG and a surge on both dice, which equates to 4DMG and 1 Pierce, which is almost as good and you couldn't even do that with eStormtroopers. Frankly, even 1DMG and surge or 2DMG on one die and any other result on the second die is pretty decent. The advantage Rangers have over Stormtroopers is that the second surge they roll isn't a dead result. I believe that roughly evens out the extra average damage of the green die. The advantage Stormtroopers have over Rangers is a more easily accessible re-roll ability - hence, more consistent damage, but same damage potential.

unfortunately the blue dice only has 2 sides with surges so surges will be a lot less predictable

I'm not sold on the elites, but regulars are great.

I predict these will be very playable and will probably flat out replace Rebel Troopers. We all know eStormtroopers are one of the best/most efficent units in the game. These guys are 90% comparable, though a bit less consistent in damage output, to eStormtroopers, but you can take more of them on account of being regular AND they come with an extra trait that's bound to get a lot of action in the next wave.

!!!!!

Exactly, double blue is not very good for damage. They need to 1) defeat a figure to gain Hidden, 2) survive to next round, 3) then their attack is very good.

However, the Sniper ability allows them to take long-range shots so that they have better chances at surviving. And, they are naturally good at finishing almost defeated figures, which comboes well with Guerilla.

They won't be easy to play though due to the extra steps needed to make the most of them.

Don't use the reroll for range, use it for damage. If you can manage, to get 3 rerolls per unit via Squad Training, you should also be able to get 3 rerolls per unit via Sniper. They may be harder to play, but an experienced player will manage that.

Better surges (+ rolling a second surge isn't a dead result), higher range (= less retaliation), possibly hide (= less retaliation / harder attack next turn), Hunter keyword, no need to be next to each other for the reroll (less prone to grenades), ... I think, they are better than eStormtroopers ... and they're not elites, so you can take 3.

And in contrast to Rebel Troopers, they don't wear bicycle helmets!

Using http://mattyellen.github.io/imperial-assault-calculator/, it looks like they're about 1/3 point of damage lower per attack than the eStormtroopers, if they're not hidden. When they are Hidden, they do significantly more damage, about 1 whole point better per attack. But if you compare Hidden Rangers to Focused eStorms, the advantage goes back to the Stormtroopers.

Of course, the rangers have super long range, and they don't have to have one of their members die to get the attack buff. Interesting - the Stormtroopers have a bit of a comeback mechanic, whereas the rangers have a bit of a snowball mechanic.

On another note, maybe these guys make Fenn viable?

On another note, maybe these guys make Fenn viable?

No, certainly not. But maybe they make regular Echo Troopers more viable.

I usually don't use Rebel Troopers. Therefore, I don't use Reinforcements in a Rebels list. So, I usually use Elite Echo Troopers. When there are other reinforcable troopers in my list, I tend to use regular Echo Troopers, because they can be reinforced.

rAlliance Rangers

rAlliance Rangers

eRebel Sabs + Targeting Computer

rEcho Troopers

Gideon on a Mission

Threepio

Rebel High Command or rAlliance Smuggler

Very tempting unit for sure, I really like the ability to attack from far away and re roll on a miss.. but it would be a lot better if they could shoot through people like the HK's or Mak. Is there a hunter card that allows this? I think the appeal to having them shoot so far away is that it draws your enemy to you and/or keeps your troops out of the main melee and alive longer.

2 blue dice isn't very good for damage though

Ignore me... nothing to see here.

Using http://mattyellen.github.io/imperial-assault-calculator/, it looks like they're about 1/3 point of damage lower per attack than the eStormtroopers, if they're not hidden. When they are Hidden, they do significantly more damage, about 1 whole point better per attack. But if you compare Hidden Rangers to Focused eStorms, the advantage goes back to the Stormtroopers.

Of course, the rangers have super long range, and they don't have to have one of their members die to get the attack buff. Interesting - the Stormtroopers have a bit of a comeback mechanic, whereas the rangers have a bit of a snowball mechanic.

On another note, maybe these guys make Fenn viable?

EDIT: brain cramp- forgot to change the BG to BB--- need more coffee... move along.

I don't know that you're going to take 2 sets of these. Some maps they're going to be awesome (Nelvanian widerness at the bottom or Greedo's new map with those long hallways, but sometimes you're not going to make much use of the long distance other than you can take shots and then move back your full movement.

Unless that elite surge says +3damage instead of +2, I can't ever think of a reason not to use the regulars over the elite. Especially with Reinforceable and the point cost. Surges will be at a premium for sure.

Okay.... various graphs (double checked I had the right things marked)

Chart one, eStormtrooper vs 1- black die and 2- white die

Chart 2, Ranger vs 1- black die and 2- white die

Chart 3, Ranger w/ Hide 1- black die and 2- white die

Chart 4, Ranger /w focus (easy to get with Gideon and C3P0) vs 1- black die and 2- white die

And for completeness, Ranger w/ focus and hide vs 1- black die and 2- white die

How did you incorporate the re rolls of each class into these graphs?

I would say that the Storm Troopers still have the better re roll ability since being 5 or more spaces away for every attack could be difficult, and the odds actually start working against you damage wise with blue dice the further away from the target you get.

They are best, when they are exactly 5 spaces away. That way, they can't miss AND get the reroll, which you can use for optimal damage.

I don't know that you're going to take 2 sets of these. Some maps they're going to be awesome (Nelvanian widerness at the bottom or Greedo's new map with those long hallways, but sometimes you're not going to make much use of the long distance other than you can take shots and then move back your full movement.

Unless that elite surge says +3damage instead of +2, I can't ever think of a reason not to use the regulars over the elite. Especially with Reinforceable and the point cost. Surges will be at a premium for sure.

Elites appear to be:

Innate Accuracy, Pierce 1 | Surge +2dmg

Surge: Pierce 1 | Surge: +3 Accuracy

Guerrilla

Elite Sniper: While attacking, if the target is 5 or more spaces away, you may reroll up to 2 attack dice.

So you gain 1 pierce, slightly better range, and an additional reroll.

I don't know that you're going to take 2 sets of these. Some maps they're going to be awesome (Nelvanian widerness at the bottom or Greedo's new map with those long hallways, but sometimes you're not going to make much use of the long distance other than you can take shots and then move back your full movement.

Unless that elite surge says +3damage instead of +2, I can't ever think of a reason not to use the regulars over the elite. Especially with Reinforceable and the point cost. Surges will be at a premium for sure.

Elites appear to be:

Innate Accuracy, Pierce 1 | Surge +2dmg

Surge: Pierce 1 | Surge: +3 Accuracy

Guerrilla

Elite Sniper: While attacking, if the target is 5 or more spaces away, you may reroll up to 2 attack dice.

So you gain 1 pierce, slightly better range, and an additional reroll.

That's what I was banking on, with one reroll, and only blue dice, I still think you're better off taking the regular. 7 health is okay, I guess that's 6 over 3 figures, but the reinforcements is so good, giving you 10 health over 6, movement shenanigans when you redeploy and I think innate pierce is pretty good, but I think I'll stick to the regulars still. 12 pts a deployment card is pricey, apparently Luke JK pricey. 9 is also pricey, but they measure up to a normal trooper deployment. I don't even look at the regular stormies, wing guard or troopers bc 3 health is so middling. I hate the hired guns even, but they have speed 5, which is somewhat useful.

How did you incorporate the re rolls of each class into these graphs?

I would say that the Storm Troopers still have the better re roll ability since being 5 or more spaces away for every attack could be difficult, and the odds actually start working against you damage wise with blue dice the further away from the target you get.

It doesn't. Though, I'd argue that it is easier to get the reroll on the Ranger. Not that it is THAT hard to get on Troopers, but there are times it just doesn't work out.

Plus, Rangers can benefit from original Luke's reroll.

I can see using them in campaign too. Take Loku and give him combat spotter, and suddenly that minimum range of 5 isn't too bad. Yeah it's giving the imperial 9 threat, but for that you get 3 extra figures that won't be OHK'd and honestly a pretty fair clean up crew.

Don't use the reroll for range, use it for damage. If you can manage, to get 3 rerolls per unit via Squad Training, you should also be able to get 3 rerolls per unit via Sniper. They may be harder to play, but an experienced player will manage that.

They'll only be able to reroll twice unless they're focused... right? Once per die?

They'll only be able to reroll twice unless they're focused... right? Once per die?

The Alliance Rangers can reroll 1 die per attack. (Possibly another with some external ability - Targeting Computer or Inspiring.)

DeBaer was talking about groups. 1 reroll per figure, 3 rerolls per group.

Ah, I assumed that he meant figure when he said unit. Apologies.