I didn't like how limited head shots were or how hitting it or anywhere else didn't really matter so I came up/stole from an earlier post this.

Hits the the head after armor are then doubled Before TB is taken off.

Ex. Damage=10 TB=4 AP=5 Dmg(10)-AP(5)=5 5x2=10 10-TB(4)= 6. You take 6 points of Damage.

You also take full damage to limbs and torso.

This made the game more lethal, but still gives you a fighting chance when shot in the head.

Interesting problem specific shots pose...house rulings abound. In my campaign, head shots do not get the benefit of TB damage reduction, also the unfortunate victem is stunned (see pg. 129 of DH, Shocking Weapon Quality). As for hits to the limbs, an arbitrary ruling relevant to the situation is enacted (i.e. a hit to the hand would cause the target to drop what ever he/she is holding as well as a penalty to attack with the hand in question). These effects are only applied when a called shot is used, otherwise the called shots lose that special feel as well as the in game mechanical advantage that makes their effort worthwhile.

Why do head shots automaticly have to be moar deadlier ? I mean geting your nose shot off or ear blown off is not very deadly and still counts as a head shot. One between the eyes in a different matter but still there is the odd change of bones & crap making it not deadly

Nuttunen said:

I agree. It could simply be a glancing across the cheek/nose. Doesn't always mean it's in-between the eyes. In my group, I don't have any special rules for it, due to that interpretation.

I was under the impression that, until you're dropped below 1 wound, injuries you receive are minor and can be shrugged off for the most part. When you start taking critical damage is when you start suffering really bad effects. The critical tables for head hits are rather vicious.

Lightly wounded damage equal or less than twice your Toughness. Heavily wounded more than twice your toughness worth damage, which already requires weeks worth of rest to heal... critical charts.. well most npcs just don't deserve it.

I don't think the game will benefit from making head-shots more deadly.

Bear in mind the rules for cover and armour. As it is, the head is likely to be the least armoured part of the target's body as well as one of the parts that are sticking out from behind cover, so aiming for the head already makes a lot of sense.

In "real life", getting shot in the stomach, or chest with an assault rifle is likely to get you killed in any case. Getting killed by a shot in the head doesn't make you more dead than dying of a punctured heart. In fact, most of the brain is only responsible for enabling non-vital functions such as "thinking" or "speaking", but I am sure we can agree that in game terms, "death" and "vegetative" are pretty much the same.

Consider this: The game mechanic allows unarmoured characters to survive point-blank hits from anything from pistols to flame throwers. Take this into account and you'll see that making headshots more lethal doesn't make all that much sense from a "real life" or a "game balance" perspective. It has a distinct appeal to the the "lolz heddsoht" FPS fans and power gamers.

If you want realism, then you might as well do away with the consept of Wounds and Toughness in the first place.

-K

kjakan said:

I agree with this, though I do like the idea that a hit to the head will stun you for one turn, so I think I'll be adopting that at least.

kjakan said:

The game doesn't take in vital organ damage when damage is delt out, so even one shot to the chest won't kill you. However, what if you're aiming for the shot right between the eyes? The way it stands death on the Crit chart for the heads at 7, right? So your average NPC 10 wounds 3 TB 7 on the Crit chart.

You'd have to do at min 20 points of damage to his head in one shot in order to kill him. A Lasgun does 1d10+3, unless you roll a 10 and then get your second shot in, you'd have to shot the guy twice. This doesn't include him wearing a helmet.

So this brings up the point of why bother to aim for the head or even wear a helmet. you have a 10% chance to get hit in the head so why bother when you can shrug it off till you close with him for melee or shoot back.

Ichiban11 said:

If you can just put a gun between a guy's eyes and pull the trigger, we're not talking a regular shot in combat. We're talking coup de grace or just plain dead without rolling. In combat, the guy is moving, your adrenaline is pumping, and gracing hits are much more likely. Your first shot in combat isn't going to be that one hit right between the eyes unless you're really really lucky. That's just the way it is, and Dark Heresy doesn't really treat that with more or less realism than other system. Once you're through the guy's wounds, we're talking critical hits and those can kill perfectly well.

For those situations where you really do have the time to line up the perfect shot, the sniper rules come into play. That minimum of 20 points of damage doesn't seem quite as far fetched when you're rolling 3d10+3 to damage.

As for why bother wearing a helmet? Well, because it's pretty free to do, and if you don't, that's some 3 or more extra points of damage for getting hit in an unarmoured location. That's just a stupid way to expose yourself if you really have a choice in the matter. I'd much rather soak 9 damage per hit, than 4, so an unarmored head isn't really "shrugging" anything off.

The rules DO take into account organ damage. The hit die is for determening how severe the hit is. Roll a 1? Clearly a glancing hit. Rolled a ten and got multiple rightous fury? You hit something really really vital.

For players getting more damage on purpose (i.e. aiming specificly at something vital) get an accurate weapon and aim.

Graspar said:

Well said!! I would suggest that the gist of the problem, IMHO, is that the rules for called shots do not provide a specific in-game advantage. Thus, some of us feel compelled to rectify this "oversight". Whether this is needed or not is up to each of us as we each determine what raw and what house rules will be incoporated into our campaigns. Personally, I use house rules such as these just for the entertainment of my group (lol drama queens). The recent rulebook errata which allows accurate weapons to do +1d10/2 DOS during an Aim action effectively covers called shots with the intent of kill (i.e. head shots); thus relegating called shots back to what that murky realm that relies on the benevolance of the GM to make their effort worthwhile (ever regret giving your group bolters or power weapons, use the called shot rule and regret no more). In the end, use or invent whatever rule you must if it makes your game better, just be sure to share with the rest of us. I have always found it fascinating (and sometimes humbling) to see how others play DH.

Then what's the point of doing a Called Shot? You're at -20% before you start adding your bonuses to hit from Aiming and such. If my target has full armor and I don't make a called shot I only have 10% of hitting him in the head.

A 8 on the Impact Crit chart for the head will kill him, Armsa and Legs he needs to Fail a Toughness Test in order to make the kill, and the body only makes him bleed. He may be stunned with the Arm and Leg wounds, but that just means I have to take another shot. HIt in the body (40% chance) and he's sounding the Alarm or going for cover. A head shot will kill him with no chance of him living to sound the alrm or me having to take a second shot.

You only gain the addtional d10 IF you take the Aim action first AND it has the Accruate quality (pg 8). And it only applies to basic weapons, so unless you plan on carrying a sniper weapon all the time you're kinda screwed if you want to go covert or shoot the guy in the back of the head.

Head shots are not just for power gaming they actually serve a purpose. They allow you to drop your target quickly. This allows you to fullfill other parts of your mission or whatever you tactical situation may call for. Example you sneak up behind the guard with a silenced pistol to shoot him in, but it takes 2 to 3 shots the do the job. Yes you're Point Blank, yes it's Accurate, and yes you have a crap ton of sights, but it means nothing to the damage you do. So you make a called shot to the back of his neck where there is no armor. So what he still has a TB of 3, 10 wounds and you need to get him down to 8 on the crit chart to kill him. so unless you're going Full-auto, or plan on using you sniper rifle at this range he still lives and now you're in melee with him. Now your plan of quietly taking out the guard is now a loud struggle that all of his buddies hear and the other PC's are wondering what the heck is wroung with our bloody Assassin who can't even kill a guy by shooting him in the back of the head.

Ichiban11 said:

I concur, sniping is an effective method to remove isolated targets, such as sentries, and given the emphasis of covert investigations is an invaluable tool in the methodology of the Inquisition. While I stand by my initial post, here is a rough idea for a house rule I'll have my group playtest at some point (subject to change depending on the contents of this thread! Thanks Ichiban for bringing the head shot question back up):

Head Shot -30% skill mod (Very Hard Difficulty) Victem does not get the benefit of TB damage reduction, test toughness, failure equates death while success denotes the Stun condition (see pg. 129 of DH, Shocking Weapon Quality). Still playtesting this ruling, if the victem isn't killed out right the stun effect will buy the acolyte's some time for alternate plans. Initial feeling is that the skill penalty should be higher, perhaps -40% (effectively trading an extra 2d10 of damage (based on the rules supplement ruling for aim, +1d10 per 2 DOS) for a TB test for instant death and a stun effect. All of this only occurs on a called shot and not from a random hit in combat. I will probably allow this to stack with the extra damage allowed with the Aim action and an Accurate weapon. Once I rid myself of insomnia and rethink/playtest, this rule will probably change. As always, any feedback will be appreciated as well as encouraged!

Ichiban11 said:

As it stands, the main benefit of called shots is to target hit locations that are vulnerable. Remember that cover doesn't give the attacker a penalty to the to-hit roll, but rather provides extra protection on the hit location. If the enemy only has his head and right arm exposed a lot of shots are going to hit the plascrete wall he's hiding behind.

It sounds like what you really want is an acceptable mechanic for "stealth kills" in general and not head-shots in particular.

-K

Ichiban11 said:

The point of called shots are, as stated, to bypass armour and cover. Sounds like what you are looking for is some kind of system where each bodypart has individual wounds.

As for your example, i'd say that's more an execution than an attack. You wouldn't need to roll damage if you succeed with something like that.

It looks like you're after execution style kills to me. Called shots, aiming, etc. are all used in combat, outside of combat you have narrative time.

In narrative time, the GM has more control of what is going on. If you level a stub revolver to the back of an enforcer's skull and pull the trigger, there's no point in rolling for damage because unless "old rusty" has jammed or something, the enforcer's brains should be decorating the recaf vending machine on the far side of the corridor.

When people are ducking about, taking opportunistic shots, ducking behind cover, and are in a state of alert, you use the combat rules. That's when a dice roll dictates a glancing hit, or a lucky shot. In narrative time, you make your Concealment tests and then maybe roll Ballistic Skill just to see if your silenced stub pistol jams or not. If it doesn't, and the GM is satisfied that you have hit the target, you kill him.

Unless, of course, they're supernaturally tough.

I posted these rules a couple of times on the old FFG forums - they might be useful to people wanting 'sniper instant kills', without impacting on the combat system (which is built more for frenetic close range combat than long range careful shots).

Sniping
In combat, aiming only represents lining up a shot for a few seconds before squeezing the trigger... and that's fine for combat purposes... but it doesn't cover what a sniper might well want or need to do.
Patience is key - you wait for the ideal moment to shoot. So, require Awareness tests every minute in order to spot his moment. Alter the difficulty as appropriate for the task and the distances involved.

Every successful Awareness test adds PB+Degrees of Success to the sniper's "Patience score". Failure reduces it by 1 for every Degree of Failure. When this score reaches a number determined by the GM, the sniper can take his shot. He spends a full-round action aiming and makes an attack roll, modified as appropriate for range, visibility, placed shots and other factors, including a +30 for the target not being aware. If the attack hits, roll for damage as normal, but ignore the targets Wounds score - the hit is an immediate Critical.

There - a system loosely based on the Investigation Skills rules already in the DH rulebook, that allows snipers out of combat to get their one-hit-kills. It'll still take a good weapon (preferably an Accurate one) and an appropriate selection of talents to make the most out of such shots (Crack Shot, Mighty Shot and Sharpshooter are ideal here to ensure you deal as much damage as possible for that single shot)

"Sneak Attacks"
This is a bit trickier. Again, it's not suitable for combat - the hectic surroundings and generally on-edge enemies make it functionally impossible.

For this, you'll need... stealth skills (Shadowing, Move Silently and/or Concealment), preferably mastered to some degree and/or with equipment to make them easier still to use... and some way of attacking in melee.

To deal a single lethal blow, you need to catch your target completely unaware - if you're noticed, you'll have to duck from view and start again at best, and fight for your life at worst. You also need to be so close to him that you can smell his last breath as it escapes from his mouth or mangled throat.

To approach that close, you need to make appropriate Stealth tests. For the most part, Silent Move or Shadowing are most useful - Concealment is only really relevant if they're looking in your direction at the time, or if you need to duck out of sight quickly to avoid their gaze. The difficulty of this test/these tests vary based on the surroundings (it's harder to sneak on gravel than on soft carpet, harder to hide under bright lights than in the gloom, and easier to shadow someone in a dense crowd than in an open field), and the target's opposed Awareness test is modified by his general alertness (if he's tired, bored or generally indifferent to the proceedings, he'll suffer a penalty... if he's paranoid, wary or suspicious, he'll get a bonus).

Attempt a stealth test (opposed by the target's awareness) every round. If you succeed and your target fails, you get a number of metres closer to your target equal to your Agility Bonus (if both of you are moving, you close the gap between you and your target by that many metres; Unnatural Agility, as normal, does not influence movement distances). If you succeed and your target succeeds, or if you both fail, then you make no progress. If you fail and your target succeeds, you've been noticed.

If you've been noticed, you may immediately attempt a Concealment test in order to move out of sight before you're spotted properly, or a Decieve test in order to pass yourself off as someone that should be there. Obviously, being stood in a fortified complex, wearing only a black bodyglove and carrying an assortment of dulled mono-knives means that trying to bluff your way out of the situation is going to be very difficult, so modify the difficulty of any Decieve tests according to the circumstances.

If you manage to get within 1m of the target without him noticing you (congratulations if this is the case...), you may attack. Make a melee attack roll at +30 (the target is unaware), modified by other circumstances (such as placed shots, or ambient conditions like rain or snow). This will either be an attack with a weapon (either a melee weapon, or a pistol), in which case you roll for damage normally, ignoring their wounds score (the blow is an immediate critical hit) or a grapple, in which case the enemy suffers a -30 penalty on their Agility test to avoid it, you get a +20 bonus on your Strength tests to continue the grapple each round due to better positioning (this bonus is removed if the enemy wins a grapple test), and the unarmed damage you deal ignores their wounds score (dealing immediate critical hits).

Regardless of the outcome of the attack, your target is aware of you. Grappling prevents a target from crying out, at least until he succeeds on a grapple test against you, but other than that (and possibly the use of a Stummer), incapacitating or killing the target are the only options to avoid drawing attention to yourself. Another stealth test (Concealment or Move Silently only in this instance - Shadowing applies when attempting to follow someone, and that isn't what's being attempted here) is required to successfully leave the scene of the crime without being noticed. If there is obviously no-one around to observe you, you can spend time hiding the body and leaving/hiding at your own pace.

Again, this isn't an automatic win - approaching the target is difficult, and the weapons that're easiest to conceal for these purposes tend not to deal that much damage (knives, unarmed attacks) or are noisy (pistols). In the former case, talents like Crippling Strike (+1d5-1 extra critical damage with melee attacks), Precise Blow, Quick Draw (so you don't have to carry your weapon openly for too long), and Street Fighting (+2 critical damage with unarmed and knife attacks) are all useful, as are silencers for pistols, synskin, camelioline cloaks, stummers, shock weapons, toxic weapons, etc...

Thank you NO-1_H3r3, I found your rules enlightening and useful. This post and, especially your "Something Other Than Human" rules place me firmly in your debt. The abhuman rules were among the first supplements I downloaded when I first recieved my DH book! For those of use interested visit his page @ uk.geocities.com/npdowdell before Squats are extinct!

DAGNABBIT! Wrong link, the correct link can be found at the bottom of NO-1_H3r3 previous post. Sorry, trying to post with my cell.

Here I have a link to an artcle about an Argentinian woh shot himself five times in the head - four times into the temple and once into the palate - and survived. He even shot himself a sixth time into the breast afterwards and did not die either. Unfortunately the article is in German. I am a graduated Neurobiologist by the way and I can tell you there are so many areas in the brain that won't kill you when damaged...

www.spiegel.de/spiegel/0,1518,596276,00.html

You'll be able to find several real world examples of people surviving being shot in the head. Not that they always look fantastic, but it happens.

I am not sure what the problem here is.

With the aim function, as well as accurate quality, which appears on all the sniper weapons, along with a couple of handguns, you can easily plug someone with the gun from range and get up to 3d10 bonus damage. What more do you want? It could be a groin shot, take an arm or leg off etc.

The other thing to note is, if the only part of the body you can see is the head, its the only location you can actually hit.

I think most of you overestimates role of head shots. In fact head is one of the best protected part of the body. Its because of thick bone inside it commonly (and scientifically ) called skull. There were a lot of incidents with bullets bouncing or sliding off the skull, even from point blank shots. The case is: what happened after the bullet penetrate skull. In most cases its deadly, but still sometimes its not. But this is covered by critical hits system. Did You notice that list of critical hits in the head that are not deadly is much shorter than in case of other body parts (if I remember correctly 5 non lethal, but still nasty wounds in case of explosives).

About sniping, and stealth kills. IMHO new rules covering accurate weapons cover them well enough. After all sniper rifles must be accurate. In my group we use similar rules for stealth kills with blades. If target is unaware of coming blow you add 1d of damage for every 2 steps off success in to hit roll. And I assure You, its deadly enough.

I can see what you mean about it, but it would make the game abit to easy, lets say you have some high powerd range weapon, and the Talent Sharpshotter, it does that you can Automaticly choose hit location, that would make it just " Hack And Slash".