who is trolling here you might think demo is fine bro thats chill and others think it is broken no need to get hostile naboo.

Yes the talk of Nerf was in the air at Gencon. This is my take.

Out of my 5 games at Gencon I used Demo with double tap twice. Did I overly use him? Nope. Did I use him as bait? Yes. Did I use 3 other Gladiators? Yes. Did they pump out the damage more then Demo? Oh yell ya..

Demo is OP? no. He is easy to move in close and hit. He has all the same defense and HP as the other Glads. Lets Nerf those also right. Just because people like the Empire and do well at Regionals or Gencon we are thinking about this. I bet people now will start talking about Nerf-in Tractor beams or TRC's.

In reality the players that are getting beat with Demo are not prepared to handle him. Thats the single thing we are talking about. I went against a 3 Glad List one was Demo and a ton of fighters. I played one wrong move and let Demo beat me up. But I still took him out in the course of 1 round. I was prepared. ARE YOU! Oh I did that after loosing my Demo...

For the Dev who is thinking about this... Watch some games and ask yourself is the opponent prepared for a possible Demo list or did they mix up their strategy for Demo.. I change up on the fly and I am super flexible about how I play.

Naboobo2000

Chris Shaffer

You should play Rebels for a time. You will understand better I think then. To be fair you are also biased.

You are saying that everyone outside of the top 3 at GenCon was not prepared for Demolisher and that is why they were beaten. Was none of your 5 matches good?

What the heck are you talking about? Only Rebels fly against Demo? I flew against Demo at Gencon and was prepared and adjusted for it while in play. I flew against Demo last night without mine and wasn't concerned.

Please don't presume that you know what happened at Gencon or what my thoughts are. In my comment above where did I mention that people outside of top 3 where not prepared?

I have the upmost respect for all the competitors at Gencon or any other Tournament or even Local game nights and would never disrespect any other player or attempt to troll them on any forum.

Naboobo2000

Chris Shaffer

Instead of being defensive, maybe you should consider what I am saying.

You are saying that people who lose to Demo are not prepared for Demo here let me quote you.

"In reality the players that are getting beat with Demo are not prepared to handle him."

Your words. You used Demo and beat people WITH Demo. Thus they were not prepared for it. Your. Words.

The people in the Top 3 all Had Demo. ALL. So everyone else must not of been prepared because they lost to player who used Demo. Once again, Your. Words.

I play both sides, I can handle Demo. Yet it does not mean that it is not the strongest ship upgrade in the game. It is used more than TRC's, more than Motti, more than any other card. Tell me how is that not powerful? Go on.

Play the other side, see how they have to deal with Demolisher.

Be upset, be agitated, whatever you want but I am not criticising your opponent, in fact I know one of them and knows he is one of the best players out there. I am criticising your words.

See you don't have a clue..... Not one... Your attempt to troll is sad.

My last game of day 1 was a 3 glad demo build with lots of fighters.. I lost my demo to fighters and triple tap... My opponent set it up perfectly. While that was happening I set up the two counters and dropped Demo and another Glad..

Where did I say anything about players at Gencon not being prepared. Oh I know you read paragraph 1 and 3 and thought I was talking about the same thing... Your attempt to troll does not effect me in the slightest.. My words. If my opinion effects you we can talk in person.

Troll? WHo the hell do you think you are. I have played you, I know you are a nice guy but this is not you so go take your bad attitude somewhere else.

I am not trolling. I am quoting YOU. I cant troll what you yourself has stated.

Fine, lets use numbers. Out of how many Regionals did Demolisher partake in the winning list? What about Store Championships? We know the TOP 3! at the very least were imperial Lists with Demolisher. How many of the Top 8 where now? I know PT106 was one of the top 8 and did not Run demo in his Imperial list, so that means 4 more possible people had Demolisher. if even 1 more person had Demolisher, that means 50% of the top 8 of one of the biggest Tournaments we have EVER had had Demolisher. 50% is not a small number when we are talking about balance here,

Where did I say anything about players at Gencon not being prepared. Oh I know you read paragraph 1 and 3 and thought I was talking about the same thing... Your attempt to troll does not effect me in the slightest.. My words. If my opinion effects you we can talk in person.

Hmmmm lets see OH I KNOW!

In reality the players that are getting beat with Demo are not prepared to handle him.

Now, you asked me if I am ready to beat Demo. Sure, always am. In fact, I have beaten you, Mikael, Marauder, and many other imperial players with Demo. Do you see my types of lists in the to 50% of players ranking in high ranked events like nationals? No, because my type of lists are not EASY.

Demo is EASY. Prove me wrong that he is not. Prove me wrong by winning a tournament WITHOUT Demolisher. Go on. Lets see how you do. Lets see how you adapt to the other side of things when you dont have that powerful piece that is used more than ANY OTHER upgrade. In fact, lets face off at the Portland Game Store this weekend. I wont be playing in the tournament but I will be HAPPY to show you how hard it is.

By the way, just to make this as blunt as possible. Top 4 of GenCon, the BIGGEST tournament we have had to date I think, was 4 Imperial players, ALL running Demolisher. #7 and 8 were not running demolisher but were Imperial so 6 out of 8 were imperial at the very least.

Oh, here is the List Overdawg took to Gencon and placed 4th with for reference.

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/227115-gencon-list-request/?p=2352362

So I am right. At the very least 50% of the Top 8 of Gencon were Demolisher players and at least 100% of the Top 4 were Demolisher players.

OH and naboobo2000, If you accept the challenge I will see if we can live stream the game on Youtube for people to watch, let those here critique the game.

See you keep quoting from the third paragraph that as nothing to do with Gencon.

Thank you for proving my point about being prepared. You are prepared and you win... Du!

Oh ok..... You openly challenge me knowing I work every weekend.. Nice. Let's see. I choose to work. Why so I can go to other tournaments.

Overdawg is a great player and great person.. Why do I know that because I played him.

naboo from outside perspective one cannot tell that your "paragraphs" are about things outside gencon it is not clear. The way you write makes it all sound like the gencon experience. Im just trying to help in my bothan ways. (also you are coming off hostile atm with your wording)

See you keep quoting from the third paragraph that as nothing to do with Gencon.

Thank you for proving my point about being prepared. You are prepared and you win... Du!

How does that not have to do anything with GenCon? Did people not lose to Demolisher players? I think they did if the top 4 was ALL demolisher players. Not 1, not 2, not 3, but ALL FOUR of you were Demolisher players.

How is that not relevant?

I guess you were not prepared then if you lost (see that is called trolling), though to be fair that was a very sh*tty thing for that guy to do to drop, come back and drop a second time. That is very shady in my opinion but that is neither here nor there.

So you are not accepting my challenge? Pretty sure it will be fun. Then again. . . when was the last list you ran without demolisher. . . well 400 point list lets be fair here. (clarification: typed before your response that I quote in a bit)

I respect you Naboobo. I really do, you, Shmitty, Mikael and Marauder are all people I look up to. You are all great players who are older and wiser than I. However, in this, the numbers dont support your opinion and you are refusing to see that. Well fine. Prove it to me. Prove me wrong by playing without Demolisher. 1 tournament, you wont even have to play me (caveat, if there are odd people I will be a by but not participating so you might have to play me then. . . ). All it will do is cost you a day of your life playing a game you enjoy to make me eat crow. Sounds fair to me.

You can go the extra mile and play me with a list without Demolisher, we can see how that goes.

Oh ok..... You openly challenge me knowing I work every weekend.. Nice. Let's see. I choose to work. Why so I can go to other tournaments.

Overdawg is a great player and great person.. Why do I know that because I played him.

Actually I did not know that. . . a Friday then? I can do a friday! Darn. . . I was really looking to boost my tournament numbers too this weekend. . . (/grumble odd work hours. . . )

Sure, I KNOW Overdawg is a great player. As a person, well 90% of the people here are better than me in that department. . . Sadly I will never win any sportsmanship prizes though I am trying! Did not even try to win my last tournament. . . though it almost happened Steve played AMAZING! off topic. . . ok back on topic. . .

Think of it in terms of a weapon Naboobo. A gladiator is a knife, it can cut, it can slice, and it can kill but it can do all of those things. Demolisher is a Sword. Full Stop. Demo is a sword that just kills. That is its goal, purpose, and use. If you put two trained people together who have the same level of experience, knowledge, etc, and give one a dagger and the other a sword, who wins? 99% of the time the Sword would. You put Demo into anyone's hands and it becomes a weapon that can do most of the work for you.

You see, Demolisher REQUIRES people to play around it, they have to anticipate it, play against it and know it. Other ships. Bah, they just need to know them and not plan as much around them because NO OTHER ship in the game can come into shooting distance while being Outside of shooting distance and then blow you away. None. Not a single one. Well, clarification, in a single activation. THAT is powerful and the Top 4 proves it.

Out of my 5 games at Gencon I used Demo with double tap twice. Did I overly use him? Nope.

Entirely irrelevant. It may have felt unimportant to you because you didn't get to use it much, but I guarantee it was the entire focus of your opponents' tactics. And if it wasn't, they lost. I'm sure you used it as bait, and that's great, but calling something "bait" that will ruin your whole day if you ignore it is kind of disingenuous.

The presence of that one ship forces me as your opponent to completely change my approach in dealing with your list. Which is not a bad thing in and of itself, but saying Demo isn't the lynchpin of a GGGG list is a pretty big stretch, regardless of how many triple taps you actually got.

How many CR90's had to play ridiculously defensively to avoid the long+ range one-shot on turns 1 and 2?

How many MC80's and VSD's were delayed from entering the fight for an extra turn or two so they could be screened from the threat of the triple tap?

How many squadrons had to make suicide charges against that one ship to try and take it down?

How many other fleet builds had to make major concessions in order to account for the probability that their biggest ship would get one-shotted if they didn't mitigate the Demo menace?

Most importantly, how many fleets that included a GSD did not include Demo? I'd wager that every single one did--certainly every one at the top tables did. And how many successful imperial lists didn't include either it or Rhymer (or, in both lists at the top table, both)? Are you really that happy running Demolisher every game? Because that's what you're advocating for here.

<snark>I guess that's a silly question--who doesn't like having the upper hand every game?</snark>

But seriously, it's terrible for the game's diversity, it's terrible to play against, and it absolutely needs a nerf. Not a huge one, but it does need it.

Savage.

Out of my 5 games at Gencon I used Demo with double tap twice. Did I overly use him? Nope.

Entirely irrelevant. It may have felt unimportant to you because you didn't get to use it much, but I guarantee it was the entire focus of your opponents' tactics. And if it wasn't, they lost. I'm sure you used it as bait, and that's great, but calling something "bait" that will ruin your whole day if you ignore it is kind of disingenuous.

The presence of that one ship forces me as your opponent to completely change my approach in dealing with your list. Which is not a bad thing in and of itself, but saying Demo isn't the lynchpin of a GGGG list is a pretty big stretch, regardless of how many triple taps you actually got.

How many CR90's had to play ridiculously defensively to avoid the long+ range one-shot on turns 1 and 2?

How many MC80's and VSD's were delayed from entering the fight for an extra turn or two so they could be screened from the threat of the triple tap?

How many squadrons had to make suicide charges against that one ship to try and take it down?

How many other fleet builds had to make major concessions in order to account for the probability that their biggest ship would get one-shotted if they didn't mitigate the Demo menace?

Most importantly, how many fleets that included a GSD did not include Demo? I'd wager that every single one did--certainly every one at the top tables did. And how many successful imperial lists didn't include either it or Rhymer (or, in both lists at the top table, both)? Are you really that happy running Demolisher every game? Because that's what you're advocating for here.

<snark>I guess that's a silly question--who doesn't like having the upper hand every game?</snark>

But seriously, it's terrible for the game's diversity, it's terrible to play against, and it absolutely needs a nerf. Not a huge one, but it does need it.

Savage.

Word.

Ardaedel was harsh but 100% right.

Out of my 5 games at Gencon I used Demo with double tap twice. Did I overly use him? Nope.

Entirely irrelevant. It may have felt unimportant to you because you didn't get to use it much, but I guarantee it was the entire focus of your opponents' tactics. And if it wasn't, they lost. I'm sure you used it as bait, and that's great, but calling something "bait" that will ruin your whole day if you ignore it is kind of disingenuous.

The presence of that one ship forces me as your opponent to completely change my approach in dealing with your list. Which is not a bad thing in and of itself, but saying Demo isn't the lynchpin of a GGGG list is a pretty big stretch, regardless of how many triple taps you actually got.

How many CR90's had to play ridiculously defensively to avoid the long+ range one-shot on turns 1 and 2?

How many MC80's and VSD's were delayed from entering the fight for an extra turn or two so they could be screened from the threat of the triple tap?

How many squadrons had to make suicide charges against that one ship to try and take it down?

How many other fleet builds had to make major concessions in order to account for the probability that their biggest ship would get one-shotted if they didn't mitigate the Demo menace?

Most importantly, how many fleets that included a GSD did not include Demo? I'd wager that every single one did--certainly every one at the top tables did. And how many successful imperial lists didn't include either it or Rhymer (or, in both lists at the top table, both)? Are you really that happy running Demolisher every game? Because that's what you're advocating for here.

<snark>I guess that's a silly question--who doesn't like having the upper hand every game?</snark>

But seriously, it's terrible for the game's diversity, it's terrible to play against, and it absolutely needs a nerf. Not a huge one, but it does need it.

Savage.

Word.

Ardaedel was harsh but 100% right.

I agree with Ard about 1% of the time, but when I do, it's the Demolisher or Rhymer.

So if people are talking about a nerf for demo ( not saying it needs or does not need one) what type of nerf would you be looking at.

Personnel I think it could be FAQed that it cannot fire after engine teching. Any other ideas ?

So if people are talking about a nerf for demo ( not saying it needs or does not need one) what type of nerf would you be looking at.

Personnel I think it could be FAQed that it cannot fire after engine teching. Any other ideas ?

Alternatively just make engine tech and demolisher modifications.

But neither of them are modifications.

Plus that would interact with other upgrades.

If that were the best choice, and I don't think it is, it would be simpler and easier to just say that Demo can't take Engine Techs.

But we should wait to see how the meta changes through Wave 5 before seriously considering nerfing Demo.

So if people are talking about a nerf for demo ( not saying it needs or does not need one) what type of nerf would you be looking at.

Personnel I think it could be FAQed that it cannot fire after engine teching. Any other ideas ?

Alternatively just make engine tech and demolisher modifications.

That'll be too harsh for Liberty.

In a very civil tone talking about plastic toys that I love...

The main arguments I usually see about Demolisher:

• Everybody's bringing it and it wins all the tournaments.
• It breaks a core mechanic. It shouldn't be allowed to shoot and move like that.
• You never see a Gladiator without a Demolisher upgrade.

I would argue that I also see plenty of other builds win tournaments at the highest level. Right off the top of my head: Truthiness' BWing list, PTs amazing no squad list, MattShadowlords's frustrating as hell 3xAF+YTs list and Q's swarm + YT list. No Demo, plenty good, and very successful. There are plenty more that I have not listed here.

Yes, it breaks a core mechanic. So does everything else really. Rieekan lets ships NOT DIE. (Rieekan is an amazing counter to Demo you rebel-scum but I hope you aren't reading this right now.)

Finally, I know it is true that usually if its a Glad, its a Demo. However, in a tournament, I rarely see a Neb that isn't Yavaris, a MC30 that isn't Admonition, or a CR90 that isn't a TRC90 (okay that last one isn't a title but you get the idea.) Actually other than Demolisher imperial lists don't have as many Title "must takes" like the rebels do.

I wish they'd nerf the talk about nerfing.

FFG is pretty good about paying attention to their games at the tournament level. If there's one thing that's dominating, they'll at least attempt to fix it through future design. Nobody likes erratas. They tend to disappoint new players that might not know about them.

And it's not like Demo has been an unknown power piece. It was in the first wave. We'll most likely see an obvious counter to it, or even a rebel ship that mimicks what it can do, in the upcoming waves. To be honest, I was surprised there wasn't a title for the MC-30s that allowed it to do what Demolisher does.

Could be in the campaign set.

Whatevs. Here's to hoping they fix it through future design instead of a paper bandaid

Scruffy Looking Nerf Herder

Officer

5 points

"When anyone in the room talks about nerfing Demolisher, force them to take a sip of their favorite beverage. You gain a Victory Token."

VTs=15 points

And it's not like Demo has been an unknown power piece. It was in the first wave. We'll most likely see an obvious counter to it, or even a rebel ship that mimicks what it can do, in the upcoming waves. To be honest, I was surprised there wasn't a title for the MC-30s that allowed it to do what Demolisher does.

It's a bit like playing Demolisher because everyone else is too.

As far as the nerf would go, what about just adding the text to the Demolisher card: You cannot use a Maneuver Command in the turn you move and shoot.

I wish they'd nerf the talk about nerfing.

+100%

First of all I would like to say hello to all community.

I play SWA from a couple of months. I dont know what kind of meta is in Yours Countries but Glad is seen rarely on our turnaments and when they are present they usually dont aquire TOP positions (of course there are exceptions). Our main thing to nerf is admiral Ackbar. Usually we have 2 big fishes with him nad two corelians. This is very difficult to stop.

Personally I dont have problems with Glads, I know how to cope with him. If someone is deploying a clonisher i'm more than happy since this is almost 1/4 points in one ship that basicaly cost 56p .

When some one put all his trust in those ship it vaniash when it becme derelict. From that moment you just put your dagger deeper in enemy heart.

Usually I run 3*Victory with boosted comms ad 134pts of squadrons (Yes, there is a rhymmer on board).

Last month my colleague fight in finals for first place with almost mirror fleet (he won because of flight controler card). first demo fleet was if I remember on 6th postion.

Instead of talking how to nerf one of many SWA combos start playing and lerning how to cope with that with minimal looses on your side

And it's not like Demo has been an unknown power piece. It was in the first wave. We'll most likely see an obvious counter to it, or even a rebel ship that mimicks what it can do, in the upcoming waves. To be honest, I was surprised there wasn't a title for the MC-30s that allowed it to do what Demolisher does.

It's a bit like playing Demolisher because everyone else is too.

As far as the nerf would go, what about just adding the text to the Demolisher card: You cannot use a Maneuver Command in the turn you move and shoot.

Part of me hopes they don't change it and instead develop a clear rebel counterpoint to it. Not a given way to destroy, mind you, just something on equal level with it. And I say that not because I'm a Demolisher fan (I usually play as the Rebellion), but because it's become part of the game's lore and tradition. I've played other games that rather than to develop sensible counter options to pieces that are overused at the highest level, instead issue a half thought out errata. This behavior usually leads to a disgruntled community. If done too often, it can lead to outright bitterness and a drop in sales.

I don't think FFG will go the route of releasing an errata unless it's clearly the best option available. I also don't think we'll see an immediate solution to the over abundance of Demolisher use (unless it just happens by accident from these new waves). I say that because I was surprised to learn how much FFG relies on the players, bloggers, etc to gather their tournament data. This means that they'll just now come to the realization of how much of an impact Demolisher has on the tournament scene, or at least how much it's being used. It's no longer just talk on the forums, but instead is documented as fact.

So pretty much if the "fix" isn't something done on paper, don't hold your breath waiting for it to come out.

By the way, just to make this as blunt as possible. Top 4 of GenCon, the BIGGEST tournament we have had to date I think, was 4 Imperial players, ALL running Demolisher. #7 and 8 were not running demolisher but were Imperial so 6 out of 8 were imperial at the very least.

A slight correction. #1-#4 all had Demolisher (3 of them had Rhymer as well), #5-#6 were Rebels, #7 was Imperial with Demolisher (at least it looks like Demolisher based on his list)an #8 was Imperial without Demolisher.

I'm personally in agreement with Ardaedhel: it's not about Demolisher being unbeatable, it's about limiting list-building options. Wave 3 and 4 will bring some anti-Demo tools, however I feel that by itself it won't be enough. In my mind removing the ability to shoot after ET is the right way to go here. (And this is not errata, but FAQ change, same as XI7 change, so it is small enough to be in line with other changes FFG does)

By the way, just to make this as blunt as possible. Top 4 of GenCon, the BIGGEST tournament we have had to date I think, was 4 Imperial players, ALL running Demolisher. #7 and 8 were not running demolisher but were Imperial so 6 out of 8 were imperial at the very least.

A slight correction. #1-#4 all had Demolisher (3 of them had Rhymer as well), #5-#6 were Rebels, #7 was Imperial with Demolisher (at least it looks like Demolisher based on his list)an #8 was Imperial without Demolisher.I'm personally in agreement with Ardaedhel: it's not about Demolisher being unbeatable, it's about limiting list-building options. Wave 3 and 4 will bring some anti-Demo tools, however I feel that by itself it won't be enough. In my mind removing the ability to shoot after ET is the right way to go here. (And this is not errata, but FAQ change, same as XI7 change, so it is small enough to be in line with other changes FFG does)

As person who plays a five activation demo. I do think the ET FAQ would work, it just takes that threat range down a touch. I think demo could do with a tone down not a nerf. Its not an auto win, just a touch more potent that the other big boys.

I agree that something needs to be done to address the current meta and Demolisher's place in it.

If x-wing is any indicator, FFG is pretty good at this kind of thing.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed that their design team measures twice before cutting.

By the way, just to make this as blunt as possible. Top 4 of GenCon, the BIGGEST tournament we have had to date I think, was 4 Imperial players, ALL running Demolisher. #7 and 8 were not running demolisher but were Imperial so 6 out of 8 were imperial at the very least.

A slight correction. #1-#4 all had Demolisher (3 of them had Rhymer as well), #5-#6 were Rebels, #7 was Imperial with Demolisher (at least it looks like Demolisher based on his list)an #8 was Imperial without Demolisher.

I'm personally in agreement with Ardaedhel: it's not about Demolisher being unbeatable, it's about limiting list-building options. Wave 3 and 4 will bring some anti-Demo tools, however I feel that by itself it won't be enough. In my mind removing the ability to shoot after ET is the right way to go here. (And this is not errata, but FAQ change, same as XI7 change, so it is small enough to be in line with other changes FFG does)

Without spilling too many of the beans, let's just say I could paraphrase a few statements to the following:

• "It's a problem that it can go from outside of long range into firing three times in a row."
• "It's in all the top lists because it's an obvious take, like Rhymer."
• "It's in basically every Imperial list, and the only time it's not is when there is no Gladiator."

I know for a fact FFG is looking at Demolisher in this light. I think their perspective (which is smart) is to wait and see what impact 3/4 have, but if the problem persists, I would expect at least a tweak for Demolisher.

I also want to echo pt106 and Ardaedhel in that the problem is not that it always wins, but that it always shows up and deforms the design space. There are other ships I feel are used significantly less (Neb B, for instance) because of how susceptible they are to Demolisher one-shots.