Engine techs is not the issue. I've run Demolisher successfully without them. The issue is that the title breaks a game core mechanic, therefore making Demolisher a complete game changer. Not that I mind, since I play Imperials....hehe.

What if we just nerfed engine techs instead of demolisher?

How would you nerf it so that any other ship who likes having it wont be put out?

MS-1s are a nice counter if you are in blue range?

What if we just nerfed engine techs instead of demolisher?

How would you nerf it so that any other ship who likes having it wont be put out?

MS-1s are a nice counter if you are in blue range?

Assuming you're going first..

What if we just nerfed engine techs instead of demolisher?

How would you nerf it so that any other ship who likes having it wont be put out?

MS-1s are a nice counter if you are in blue range?

Assuming you're going first..

Or you lived but even if you lived you have to be going first

What if we just nerfed engine techs instead of demolisher?

How would you nerf it so that any other ship who likes having it wont be put out?

MS-1s are a nice counter if you are in blue range?

Assuming you're going first..

Or you lived but even if you lived you have to be going first

Yeah, if you're up against a serious DeMSU style fleet that's going first and last and you're within blue dice range of Demolisher and somehow still alive, you deserve that win because something just went horribly wrong for the DeMSU player.

What if we just nerfed engine techs instead of demolisher?

How would you nerf it so that any other ship who likes having it wont be put out?

MS-1s are a nice counter if you are in blue range?

Assuming you're going first..

Or you lived but even if you lived you have to be going first

Yeah, if you're up against a serious DeMSU style fleet that's going first and last and you're within blue dice range of Demolisher and somehow still alive, you deserve that win because something just went horribly wrong for the DeMSU player.

Happened to Clon a few times at Tacoma Regionals. He lost those games because he could not kill the targets he triple tapped.

I've said it before and I'll say it again.

Going first, and double tapping with several ships can be just as deadly to most ships in the game.

No one sees it because "demo" is the white elephant in the room.

And no Madaghmire there really was not that much choice, Wave 1 VSD, Then Gladiators we're released, do you have any concept what it was like going from slow lumbering easily flanked, virtually impossible to get into front arc black dice range VSD's to Gladiator "Demolisher." ? of course it was used be everyone, it is everything a VSD is not as an out and out damage dealing platform.

Then we got ISD + Raiders, most people took one look at a Raider, saw its dice pool, saw its upgrade choices, and most importantly saw its defense tokens, and said "no thanks."

I have a question for you, do you think if the game released with all current and all about to be released content (up to wave 5) do you think Demolisher would have been so prevalent in Imperial lists? Personally I don't think so.

Circumstance and lack of choice catapulted both Rhymer and Demolisher into such popularity, Demolisher I can see life without with the new up coming ships, Rhymer though....Why would you ever not take him, if you were running squadrons?

Rebels on the other hand, CR90, and Nebulon, then the Assault Frigate, in wave one, all of which were useful, and no one had any real beef with including in lists, then they got MC80/MC30 again, no one had any real beef with.

So apart from Yavaris, Rebels did not have any real "must" takes, because they had diversity and many different ways of being highly competitive.

Imperials

VSD/GSD/GSD

VSD/VSD/VSD Rhymerball

ISD/ISD Rhymerball

Hello Admiral Ackbar, good bye VSD's

Clon, myself and no doubt many other Imperial commanders went back to the drawing board, I was tired of my VSD's not getting front arc shots with all dice, tired of my VSD's getting flanked and not being able to escape or get back into range, tired of running Rhymer combos, because I'd roll to many blanks on the black dice. I used to run Dominator Demolisher Insidious no squadrons in wave 1, then I started messing about with Raiders and ISDS, and then Raiders with Gladiators.

Nearly every UK tournament I have taken part in as an Imperials player, Only ever seen Motti taken, 95% of Imperials had dual ISD or triple Vics with a Rhymerball. I was the only person in all but one who had gladiators in his fleet, and I was the only one who used Raiders.

So no I don't accept "there were lots of choices."

What if we just nerfed engine techs instead of demolisher?

How would you nerf it so that any other ship who likes having it wont be put out?

MS-1s are a nice counter if you are in blue range?

Assuming you're going first..

Or you lived but even if you lived you have to be going first

Yeah, if you're up against a serious DeMSU style fleet that's going first and last and you're within blue dice range of Demolisher and somehow still alive, you deserve that win because something just went horribly wrong for the DeMSU player.

Happened to Clon a few times at Tacoma Regionals. He lost those games because he could not kill the targets he triple tapped.

I got secret, ancient technology against triple-tap Demos.

Hint #1: It was big in Wave 1 before a certain FAQ

Hint #2: I use my AckbarBB a lot.

I've said it before and I'll say it again.

Going first, and double tapping with several ships can be just as deadly to most ships in the game.

No one sees it because "demo" is the white elephant in the room.

And no Madaghmire there really was not that much choice, Wave 1 VSD, Then Gladiators we're released, do you have any concept what it was like going from slow lumbering easily flanked, virtually impossible to get into front arc black dice range VSD's to Gladiator "Demolisher." ? of course it was used be everyone, it is everything a VSD is not as an out and out damage dealing platform.

Then we got ISD + Raiders, most people took one look at a Raider, saw its dice pool, saw its upgrade choices, and most importantly saw its defense tokens, and said "no thanks."

I have a question for you, do you think if the game released with all current and all about to be released content (up to wave 5) do you think Demolisher would have been so prevalent in Imperial lists? Personally I don't think so.

Circumstance and lack of choice catapulted both Rhymer and Demolisher into such popularity, Demolisher I can see life without with the new up coming ships, Rhymer though....Why would you ever not take him, if you were running squadrons?

Rebels on the other hand, CR90, and Nebulon, then the Assault Frigate, in wave one, all of which were useful, and no one had any real beef with including in lists, then they got MC80/MC30 again, no one had any real beef with.

So apart from Yavaris, Rebels did not have any real "must" takes, because they had diversity and many different ways of being highly competitive.

Imperials

VSD/GSD/GSD

VSD/VSD/VSD Rhymerball

ISD/ISD Rhymerball

Hello Admiral Ackbar, good bye VSD's

Clon, myself and no doubt many other Imperial commanders went back to the drawing board, I was tired of my VSD's not getting front arc shots with all dice, tired of my VSD's getting flanked and not being able to escape or get back into range, tired of running Rhymer combos, because I'd roll to many blanks on the black dice. I used to run Dominator Demolisher Insidious no squadrons in wave 1, then I started messing about with Raiders and ISDS, and then Raiders with Gladiators.

Nearly every UK tournament I have taken part in as an Imperials player, Only ever seen Motti taken, 95% of Imperials had dual ISD or triple Vics with a Rhymerball. I was the only person in all but one who had gladiators in his fleet, and I was the only one who used Raiders.

So no I don't accept "there were lots of choices."

Holy **** dude that is exactly the point. There are x choices, one is way better, everyone takes it, and so it seems like there are no choices. That is why this thread exists.

Also, saying no one had any issues with the MC80 or Nebulon B is disingenuous, at best. I happen to like both ships fine, but there has been plenty of grousing about both. And the CR90 was ok in Wave 1, but didn't really become a force until wave 2.

As to your 2 questions my way, I've already stated I think that the upcoming releases will alleviate the problem. In this thread. So I mean, great question. Thanks. And yes, I have a concept of what it was like suddenly having Wave 1, as I was playing then. Do you have any concept of how condescending it sounds when someone asks you if you have a concept of something? If you are having issues conceptualizing it, allow me to tell you, it is super ******* condescending.

I think Demo is very strong, but not broken, partly due to Imp limitations that are fading with more waves, but also the gladiator without Demo (or at least insidious) is a pretty horrible ship.. average def tokens, speed, and maneuverability with piss poor range. Other black dice ships have other options.. trc's on mc30, with 2x red dice, vic 1's have red all around.. gladiators without some kind of range modifier do almost nothing if not player 1.

A "demolisher" title on most any other ship would be much worse than it is on a gladiator.

I've said it before and I'll say it again.

Going first, and double tapping with several ships can be just as deadly to most ships in the game.

No one sees it because "demo" is the white elephant in the room.

And no Madaghmire there really was not that much choice, Wave 1 VSD, Then Gladiators we're released, do you have any concept what it was like going from slow lumbering easily flanked, virtually impossible to get into front arc black dice range VSD's to Gladiator "Demolisher." ? of course it was used be everyone, it is everything a VSD is not as an out and out damage dealing platform.

Then we got ISD + Raiders, most people took one look at a Raider, saw its dice pool, saw its upgrade choices, and most importantly saw its defense tokens, and said "no thanks."

I have a question for you, do you think if the game released with all current and all about to be released content (up to wave 5) do you think Demolisher would have been so prevalent in Imperial lists? Personally I don't think so.

Circumstance and lack of choice catapulted both Rhymer and Demolisher into such popularity, Demolisher I can see life without with the new up coming ships, Rhymer though....Why would you ever not take him, if you were running squadrons?

Rebels on the other hand, CR90, and Nebulon, then the Assault Frigate, in wave one, all of which were useful, and no one had any real beef with including in lists, then they got MC80/MC30 again, no one had any real beef with.

So apart from Yavaris, Rebels did not have any real "must" takes, because they had diversity and many different ways of being highly competitive.

Imperials

VSD/GSD/GSD

VSD/VSD/VSD Rhymerball

ISD/ISD Rhymerball

Hello Admiral Ackbar, good bye VSD's

Clon, myself and no doubt many other Imperial commanders went back to the drawing board, I was tired of my VSD's not getting front arc shots with all dice, tired of my VSD's getting flanked and not being able to escape or get back into range, tired of running Rhymer combos, because I'd roll to many blanks on the black dice. I used to run Dominator Demolisher Insidious no squadrons in wave 1, then I started messing about with Raiders and ISDS, and then Raiders with Gladiators.

Nearly every UK tournament I have taken part in as an Imperials player, Only ever seen Motti taken, 95% of Imperials had dual ISD or triple Vics with a Rhymerball. I was the only person in all but one who had gladiators in his fleet, and I was the only one who used Raiders.

So no I don't accept "there were lots of choices."

Holy **** dude that is exactly the point. There are x choices, one is way better, everyone takes it, and so it seems like there are no choices. That is why this thread exists.

Also, saying no one had any issues with the MC80 or Nebulon B is disingenuous, at best. I happen to like both ships fine, but there has been plenty of grousing about both. And the CR90 was ok in Wave 1, but didn't really become a force until wave 2.

As to your 2 questions my way, I've already stated I think that the upcoming releases will alleviate the problem. In this thread. So I mean, great question. Thanks. And yes, I have a concept of what it was like suddenly having Wave 1, as I was playing then. Do you have any concept of how condescending it sounds when someone asks you if you have a concept of something? If you are having issues conceptualizing it, allow me to tell you, it is super ******* condescending.

My thoughts starting at the back first, I do not think it is condescending. In my area the GSD in any form almost never sees the table. The VSD sees the table way more than it, also the I variants (black dice) are almost never used. To me and most of our Empire players it is all about the Red/Blue combo. So if someone asks me if I can conceptualize it, I do not see it as condescending as it is very possible I have not even thought about using it the way they do. I could take your saying that "There are x choices, one is way better, everyone takes it, and so it seems like there are no choices." as condescending as I do not agree with it at all, but instead I take it as your opinion, and maybe affected by your area, but not as stated a fact and not the case everyplace.

Moving on, "So apart from Yavaris, Rebels did not have any real "must" takes, because they had diversity and many different ways of being highly competitive." at least in my area the must takes are first Gallent Haven, second Jainas Light. Now I will agree that if they take a Neb first is normally Yavaris followed by Salvation (I would say about 60/40).

On the empire side I would say the closest they have to an must include is Impetuous, as most (I would say 75% or more) have a Raider and if they have a Raider first one will have that title. The other title we see a lot of is Relentless, as it is cheap and helpful. Now a title we never see after the nerf is Instigator, as it is deemed useless now.

This is based on my experience and my local meta. Am I the best player? I do not know (and would guess not), I am probably the best Empire player in my area, and between our best Rebel player and myself we trade on and off for best player in the area, but what does that mean? Not much outside of my play area, so take it for what it is worth.

What if we just nerfed engine techs instead of demolisher?

How would you nerf it so that any other ship who likes having it wont be put out?

MS-1s are a nice counter if you are in blue range?

Assuming you're going first..

Or you lived but even if you lived you have to be going first

Yeah, if you're up against a serious DeMSU style fleet that's going first and last and you're within blue dice range of Demolisher and somehow still alive, you deserve that win because something just went horribly wrong for the DeMSU player.

Happened to Clon a few times at Tacoma Regionals. He lost those games because he could not kill the targets he triple tapped.

I got secret, ancient technology against triple-tap Demos.

Hint #1: It was big in Wave 1 before a certain FAQ

Hint #2: I use my AckbarBB a lot.

See, I LOVE seeing Ackbar BB's. . . they blow up so beautifully. . .

You really should check out Clon's vassal games, I know there are a few videos of the vassal games that Biggs put out there.

I've said it before and I'll say it again.

Going first, and double tapping with several ships can be just as deadly to most ships in the game.

No one sees it because "demo" is the white elephant in the room.

And no Madaghmire there really was not that much choice, Wave 1 VSD, Then Gladiators we're released, do you have any concept what it was like going from slow lumbering easily flanked, virtually impossible to get into front arc black dice range VSD's to Gladiator "Demolisher." ? of course it was used be everyone, it is everything a VSD is not as an out and out damage dealing platform.

Then we got ISD + Raiders, most people took one look at a Raider, saw its dice pool, saw its upgrade choices, and most importantly saw its defense tokens, and said "no thanks."

I have a question for you, do you think if the game released with all current and all about to be released content (up to wave 5) do you think Demolisher would have been so prevalent in Imperial lists? Personally I don't think so.

Circumstance and lack of choice catapulted both Rhymer and Demolisher into such popularity, Demolisher I can see life without with the new up coming ships, Rhymer though....Why would you ever not take him, if you were running squadrons?

Rebels on the other hand, CR90, and Nebulon, then the Assault Frigate, in wave one, all of which were useful, and no one had any real beef with including in lists, then they got MC80/MC30 again, no one had any real beef with.

So apart from Yavaris, Rebels did not have any real "must" takes, because they had diversity and many different ways of being highly competitive.

Imperials

VSD/GSD/GSD

VSD/VSD/VSD Rhymerball

ISD/ISD Rhymerball

Hello Admiral Ackbar, good bye VSD's

Clon, myself and no doubt many other Imperial commanders went back to the drawing board, I was tired of my VSD's not getting front arc shots with all dice, tired of my VSD's getting flanked and not being able to escape or get back into range, tired of running Rhymer combos, because I'd roll to many blanks on the black dice. I used to run Dominator Demolisher Insidious no squadrons in wave 1, then I started messing about with Raiders and ISDS, and then Raiders with Gladiators.

Nearly every UK tournament I have taken part in as an Imperials player, Only ever seen Motti taken, 95% of Imperials had dual ISD or triple Vics with a Rhymerball. I was the only person in all but one who had gladiators in his fleet, and I was the only one who used Raiders.

So no I don't accept "there were lots of choices."

Holy **** dude that is exactly the point. There are x choices, one is way better, everyone takes it, and so it seems like there are no choices. That is why this thread exists.

Also, saying no one had any issues with the MC80 or Nebulon B is disingenuous, at best. I happen to like both ships fine, but there has been plenty of grousing about both. And the CR90 was ok in Wave 1, but didn't really become a force until wave 2.

As to your 2 questions my way, I've already stated I think that the upcoming releases will alleviate the problem. In this thread. So I mean, great question. Thanks. And yes, I have a concept of what it was like suddenly having Wave 1, as I was playing then. Do you have any concept of how condescending it sounds when someone asks you if you have a concept of something? If you are having issues conceptualizing it, allow me to tell you, it is super ******* condescending.

Is he talking about the same MC80 that got so much hate because it was speed 2? The same MC80 that DrunkTarkin hated and only got because he won it? The same MC80 that people moaned and complained about until BiggsIRL showed us the Rieekan Aces list?

Now the Nebulon, the same one that Green Knight says is horrible with out Salvation or Yavaris, the same one where I have to go on every few months and rant to people because they choose to ignore the options?

MC30 got much hate for about a month and a half or so because people could not figure it out. I loved it the moment I say it (YAY Empire at War!)

The Space Whale was hated on because it was "Ugly" it only really needed was a tail lift

Ok, enough disbelief, on to the point! I dont get your meta EasterKing. it is foreign and weird to me. Same with you CDAT, a meta with few gladiators? that is so weird. . . Here, we have people running lists with 3 to 4 of them (Chris who made 3rd is from Vancouver Washington and to person who beat me at regionals. . . great guy, SUPER Gladiator heavy player) Mikael is running what 3 GSD's no rhymer and no demolisher (more on a dare from me but hey, he is learning some great lessons. . . now if he would only change up his ship choices. . . )

The VSD is and I will always say, a great ship. It is a pain to drive and you do feel like molasses in the winter can indeed be faster but it teaches you so many lessons on learning to predict movement, learning to limit the amount of fire you take, how to navigate, etc. That I will never think bad of it. Now it will get a boost with Moff J. Fun times with that shenannigans!

My meta is foreign as well I guess. I almost never see Gladiators at all, and I almost never use them. I would say the most common Imperial ships here to see on the table are Victory IIs and Raider Is.

I think if Clon was still around, he will tell you that not a lot of people drive the MC80 like I do

I have mine stacked, and it punches people to death repeatedly.

This reminds me of a certain thread here:
https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/217761-hot-take-the-mc80-is-still-terribad/?hl=terribad

"The MC80 is still terribad"

I remember this thread because this was one of the few times I lurked through the forums during the tournament season to make a post.

The MC80 is a GREAT ship.. but it all depends on how you build it, what you're building it for, and you (the player) remembering why you built it in the first place. Too many players get caught in limbo with this ship, and that's the main reason why they suck it up with it. You either run it as a carrier, or BB, but whatever you design it to do, make sure you're paying the points to make it do exactly that. Carriers typically don't need it to run with a lot of upgrades, but the BB variants do. I don't even know how many games I've played with the MC80, but it's the first ship I played since Sullust, and it's been in every single one of my lists so far. The ship is amazing. The players who consistently fail with them, not so much.

I agree HERO, people get lost in trying to make it do everything and it ends up doing well at nothing.

Is it confirmed what Snipe does or is it just a assumption from the community?

It's a close to confirmed as you can get.

Shoot X blue, distance 2.

Looks like 3 for the E-wing and 4 for Mr. Horn(y).

I think if Clon was still around, he will tell you that not a lot of people drive the MC80 like I do

I have mine stacked, and it punches people to death repeatedly.

This reminds me of a certain thread here:

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/217761-hot-take-the-mc80-is-still-terribad/?hl=terribad

"The MC80 is still terribad"

I remember this thread because this was one of the few times I lurked through the forums during the tournament season to make a post.

The MC80 is a GREAT ship.. but it all depends on how you build it, what you're building it for, and you (the player) remembering why you built it in the first place. Too many players get caught in limbo with this ship, and that's the main reason why they suck it up with it. You either run it as a carrier, or BB, but whatever you design it to do, make sure you're paying the points to make it do exactly that. Carriers typically don't need it to run with a lot of upgrades, but the BB variants do. I don't even know how many games I've played with the MC80, but it's the first ship I played since Sullust, and it's been in every single one of my lists so far. The ship is amazing. The players who consistently fail with them, not so much.

You are like Green Knight. We would just have to take it to the field of battle.

Hero please organise a vassal game against CNinja please. You can tell us everything you want, but even with advanced projectors, demo can triple tap the mc80.

Cool. Let's play, I'm down.

Edit: Also, I don't know what I am like Green Knight means.

Cool. Let's play, I'm down.

Edit: Also, I don't know what I am like Green Knight means.

Green Knight believes hat any Nebulon-B without Salvation and Yavaris on it is a bad ship.

You spout how your AckbarBB can take on anything which is fine but you have not experienced DtO or a Clonisher I think, or if you have not against a veteran opponent of that list. That that makes you a bit more arrogant. I fear that when you face those lists a few times, you will have the same reaction that you did to the Fireball.

Holy **** dude that is exactly the point. There are x choices, one is way better, everyone takes it, and so it seems like there are no choices. That is why this thread exists.

Also, saying no one had any issues with the MC80 or Nebulon B is disingenuous, at best. I happen to like both ships fine, but there has been plenty of grousing about both. And the CR90 was ok in Wave 1, but didn't really become a force until wave 2.

As to your 2 questions my way, I've already stated I think that the upcoming releases will alleviate the problem. In this thread. So I mean, great question. Thanks. And yes, I have a concept of what it was like suddenly having Wave 1, as I was playing then. Do you have any concept of how condescending it sounds when someone asks you if you have a concept of something? If you are having issues conceptualizing it, allow me to tell you, it is super ******* condescending.

It's the point? so what point are we making? that Imperials in Wave 1 had a poor choice and a good choice?

I never ever saw anyone not running at least one Nebulon, and I saw many many times people running MC80's.

And I have read enough of your posts to know you are a smart guy, and often quite entertaining to read with your witty posts, so I am sorry you felt I was being super ******* condescending, my intent was an invitation to say, yes it was a paradigm shift for Imperial players, the ability to move and fire, and be in black dice range. It was also said to provoke thought, because not everyone reading this thread, will have thought about it in such a manner, yes I was talking to you, but I was also talking to everyone else who is reading.

Let me preface this next post with a statement, what I am about to say is an example, not putting people down, or trying to be nasty, or rude.

Lyraeus, in any given group of people who play a game, 1 a tiny % of them will use that games forums, 2 most players will perform averagely at said game, as an example I play World of Tanks on the console, I am ranked in the top 1% of the playerbase, out of over 100,000 players globally across all console platforms, I am rank 648. One of the primary reasons for this fact is, I take risks, when I play the game, and I quickly grasp the strenghts and weaknesses of the tanks I use, and play them to take full advantage of them.

I constantly see people sitting too far back, people not using their tanks to the best of its capabilities, under performing in them, some of them quite badly. And this is because people are risk averse, they like the safe known, not the dangerous unknown, not confident in their own abilities, or vastly overrating the abilities of others.

The same is true in Armada, we see a tiny percentage of users here, and a disproportionate amount of them are the better players of the game, which means most of the posters are the players that will end up in the top 5%, 1% and 0.1% of the player base, with a smattering (comparatively of average players).

What does that mean? why am I saying this? I am saying it because while me, you and others here, will run fleets that took some real work to understand and make work properly, or to find the ways in which to overcome the flaws of a particular vessel, most will not, most will try something once, get hammered and completely write something off, rather than try again, they will go back to something they know works, even if that is not particularly adventurous. This is why I see Motti and Dual ISDS and Rhymerballs two huge ships, with a ton of health, and Rhymer to extra damage, I mean you cannot get more safe.

Taking smaller ships, they are not comfortable using is a huge gamble, one most people will not risk.

I guess my rambling point is this, don't take this forum as a representation of the player base at large, because it is not, no game forums ever are.

Rhymer is my favorite squad, not for his obvious effectiveness but instead for spreading out all the squad clusterballs!!!

I'm hoping they add a Rebel squad that allows red bomber dice to be used against ships at LONG range!! The big messy balls of squads may be a thing of the past. One can only hope!

I think if ever there was proof that there's something wrong with Demo in the current, pre wave 3/4 meta, it's that we talk about it so **** much which little to no prompting.

Demolisher to be replaced with Chance Cubes. Confirmed.