To follow up my point, I think second player is pretty desirable already in certain builds and against certain opponent builds. It's certainly not desirable in a list made to go first, but I mean... what would you expect?

I have had more success as second player with my builds. I tend to aim for the objective advantage however.

I am just going to pipe in one last time, at the risk of being misunderstood yet again, to say that the larger issue with Demo isn't that the ship is an auto-win, isn't that "look at anecdotal evidence of XYZ tournament," it's that it harms the game by making it less diverse. I agree, we totally should wait to see what the meta does before anything happens, and my greatest hope is the new toys really do shake things up enough that Demolisher isn't as ubiquitous.

I think the point that I'm trying to make that some are failing to see isn't that "there's no way to beat Demolisher," it's the card's popularity, due to its ability to punch much above its weightclass, inhibits list diversity, which is harmful for the game. I agree, titles really should be powerful and Yavaris and Adomonition are great, but they aren't as widespread as Demolisher is.

I love this game more than any other table top game I've played, and I've jumped in 40k, Warmachine, Mercs, Infinity, BFG, and Firestorm, excluding other FFG games. I would hate to have our amazing game become boring or predictable, and I think the tale Shmitty's data tells is list diversity on the Imperial side is hindered due to certain things being extremely powerful.

Oh you are so dead wrong. This one time I played a game and it was not at all like you described so you are certainly not correct here.

If you look at the statistics I've posted on my webblog entitled "WuFame: The Sausage King of Armada" you'll see the anecdotal data I've collected from the community completely backs up my facts here.

Edit: Sidenote, you're coming off extremely naive now, and I really don't know why you think Demolisher is so overpowered when Jaina's Light is a title.

I can't tell if you're serious with this post... lol.

I'd Add "and there being no other interesting options."

Which will change.

And I dont want to see first player nerfed, I want to see second player strengthened. There should be objectives that woefully four second player to a ridiculous extent.

I think another simple fix would be allow, second player to choose on of his objectives, or probably a little more reasonable, the second player only presents two out of the three objectives for the first player to choose.

Be careful what you wish for. If something like this is implemented, I can see people doing high bids to go second with the appropriate list.

And? Was your regional success not greatly helped by your opponents choosing to make you go first?

Second player should be desirable!

I'm not talking about my list (and yes, that story repeated at Gencon where at one game I was given first, so my opponent could force Fleet Ambush (!) on me. Don't ask). Think bomber-heavy lists with 4+ activations (so the carrier can be activated after the target ship moved into range) and Superior Positions/Precision Strike.

I am just going to pipe in one last time, at the risk of being misunderstood yet again, to say that the larger issue with Demo isn't that the ship is an auto-win, isn't that "look at anecdotal evidence of XYZ tournament," it's that it harms the game by making it less diverse. I agree, we totally should wait to see what the meta does before anything happens, and my greatest hope is the new toys really do shake things up enough that Demolisher isn't as ubiquitous.

I think the point that I'm trying to make that some are failing to see isn't that "there's no way to beat Demolisher," it's the card's popularity, due to its ability to punch much above its weightclass, inhibits list diversity, which is harmful for the game. I agree, titles really should be powerful and Yavaris and Adomonition are great, but they aren't as widespread as Demolisher is.

I love this game more than any other table top game I've played, and I've jumped in 40k, Warmachine, Mercs, Infinity, BFG, and Firestorm, excluding other FFG games. I would hate to have our amazing game become boring or predictable, and I think the tale Shmitty's data tells is list diversity on the Imperial side is hindered due to certain things being extremely powerful.

Oh you are so dead wrong. This one time I played a game and it was not at all like you described so you are certainly not correct here.

If you look at the statistics I've posted on my webblog entitled "WuFame: The Sausage King of Armada" you'll see the anecdotal data I've collected from the community completely backs up my facts here.

Edit: Sidenote, you're coming off extremely naive now, and I really don't know why you think Demolisher is so overpowered when Jaina's Light is a title.

I can't tell if you're serious with this post... lol.

He's not, but yeah wu really committed to the gag in that one.

I am just going to pipe in one last time, at the risk of being misunderstood yet again, to say that the larger issue with Demo isn't that the ship is an auto-win, isn't that "look at anecdotal evidence of XYZ tournament," it's that it harms the game by making it less diverse. I agree, we totally should wait to see what the meta does before anything happens, and my greatest hope is the new toys really do shake things up enough that Demolisher isn't as ubiquitous.

I think the point that I'm trying to make that some are failing to see isn't that "there's no way to beat Demolisher," it's the card's popularity, due to its ability to punch much above its weightclass, inhibits list diversity, which is harmful for the game. I agree, titles really should be powerful and Yavaris and Adomonition are great, but they aren't as widespread as Demolisher is.

I love this game more than any other table top game I've played, and I've jumped in 40k, Warmachine, Mercs, Infinity, BFG, and Firestorm, excluding other FFG games. I would hate to have our amazing game become boring or predictable, and I think the tale Shmitty's data tells is list diversity on the Imperial side is hindered due to certain things being extremely powerful.

Oh you are so dead wrong. This one time I played a game and it was not at all like you described so you are certainly not correct here.

If you look at the statistics I've posted on my webblog entitled "WuFame: The Sausage King of Armada" you'll see the anecdotal data I've collected from the community completely backs up my facts here.

Edit: Sidenote, you're coming off extremely naive now, and I really don't know why you think Demolisher is so overpowered when Jaina's Light is a title.

I can't tell if you're serious with this post... lol.

Haha. Mission accomplished. I thought about mentioning Independence in place of Jaina's Light, but I didn't wanna make the joke that obvious.

If they showed me Dust Clouds right now, then I'd probably be happy with the 3 we've been spoiled

Until an Interdictor steals your beautiful placement

That's half the fun.

I am just going to pipe in one last time, at the risk of being misunderstood yet again, to say that the larger issue with Demo isn't that the ship is an auto-win, isn't that "look at anecdotal evidence of XYZ tournament," it's that it harms the game by making it less diverse. I agree, we totally should wait to see what the meta does before anything happens, and my greatest hope is the new toys really do shake things up enough that Demolisher isn't as ubiquitous.

I think the point that I'm trying to make that some are failing to see isn't that "there's no way to beat Demolisher," it's the card's popularity, due to its ability to punch much above its weightclass, inhibits list diversity, which is harmful for the game. I agree, titles really should be powerful and Yavaris and Adomonition are great, but they aren't as widespread as Demolisher is.

I love this game more than any other table top game I've played, and I've jumped in 40k, Warmachine, Mercs, Infinity, BFG, and Firestorm, excluding other FFG games. I would hate to have our amazing game become boring or predictable, and I think the tale Shmitty's data tells is list diversity on the Imperial side is hindered due to certain things being extremely powerful.

Very well put. And I agree with Wu that waves 3-5 may be all the fix we need. Certainly, I believe they will go a ways in alleviating the issue. But absolutely in wave 2, there was almost no Imperial list I designed where not taking Demo was an organic function of the building process. My lists that didn't bring Demo were almost always a concious decision to avoid bringing it.

Lets put this into some context

Wave 2 Imperials have 4 ship types, ISD / VSD / Gladiator / Raider.

Most Imperials think VSD/Raiders are bad risks, don't enjoy using them, or don't do well using them.

Leaving the Imperial fleet build ISDs + Gladiators

Its not like there were 12 ship types to use, and Demolisher was always taken.

I agree Demolisher is stupid effective.

If that translates to a Nerf, I hope that it is light, and goes further if needed, versus the hefty whack that leaves it so useless it is unplayable.

I agree Demolisher is stupid effective.

If that translates to a Nerf, I hope that it is light, and goes further if needed, versus the hefty whack that leaves it so useless it is unplayable.

I agree, it shouldn't be major. The post suggesting not allowing it to attack after Engine Techs sounds perfect to me.

If there is a unit that actually needs a nerf, it's probably Rhymer. He's radically affecting the Imperial squadron game, and shares his powerful affect with potentially the entire remaining squadron team.

If there is a unit that actually needs a nerf, it's probably Rhymer. He's radically affecting the Imperial squadron game, and shares his powerful affect with potentially the entire remaining squadron team.

As much as I love Rhymer, I'm not sure I disagree.

It's going to get real old paying the Rhymer tax on all the new bomber squadrons that are coming out, especially if they make a viable replacement. Honestly, "close range" would be a significant improvement over current bombing range, but would reduce his overbearing nature.

If there is a unit that actually needs a nerf, it's probably Rhymer. He's radically affecting the Imperial squadron game, and shares his powerful affect with potentially the entire remaining squadron team.

As much as I love Rhymer, I'm not sure I disagree.

It's going to get real old paying the Rhymer tax on all the new bomber squadrons that are coming out, especially if they make a viable replacement. Honestly, "close range" would be a significant improvement over current bombing range, but would reduce his overbearing nature.

Oh, for sure. I don't think I've ever seen seen a unit that has so much effect on a game. Maybe JTMS from Magic or Jackson Howard from Netrunner, but this dude is unreal.

He's pretty much staple-level; he's 16 points, have 5 health, carries black bomber, has 2 brace, benefits are AoE, affects every friendly squadron, sets the tone for the meta, can be taken on top of other meta-builders, AND is future-proof. It's to a point that future releases have to be designed AROUND him, which limits the design space for the game because he exists. Rhymer is honestly the only card I would ever consider errata'ing, even with Snipe in Wave 5 coming down the pipeline. There is no reason outside of points that he shouldn't be auto-included in every Imperial list that has squadrons. Back in Wave 1 he at least had answers because you can tie him up. With Intel coming into the fray, all of that broke down and broke down hard.

The first time I saw Rhymer back when I first started playing the game, I had to do a triple-take. I was like, no way, why does this exist? He's really that good, and there's no equivalent, not even close in the entire Rebel lineup.

My personal opinion is that Rhymer's ability should have been on a B-Wing. Their speed of 2 would have helped contain this ability a little and makes B-Wing and Independance more relevant.

But what is done is done. If Rhymer continue to be an autoinclude in every squadron base Imperial builds, I'm confident that FFG will correct the problem with upgrades here and there to counter him. Based on my experience in X-Wing, they are not fond on units dominating a game for too long.

My personal opinion is that Rhymer's ability should have been on a B-Wing. Their speed of 2 would have helped contain this ability a little and makes B-Wing and Independance more relevant.

But what is done is done. If Rhymer continue to be an autoinclude in every squadron base Imperial builds, I'm confident that FFG will correct the problem with upgrades here and there to counter him. Based on my experience in X-Wing, they are not fond on units dominating a game for too long.

Edit: Awfully worded post, trying again.

I don't think E-Wings with Snipe will be super great. I think their price to effectiveness ratio when it comes to the Snipe ability will be a deterrent, but will not be cost-effective against Rhymer players with half a brain. For 16 points, Rhymer's cost to effectiveness ratio is IMO, the best in the game.

Roll and D6 and I get +1 to go first?

Ah, those were the days. Remember the dirty, dirty Wood Elves with their White Dwarf list that could get +2?

And is there a full spoiling of Snipe somewhere? As far as I can gather, it lets you attack at Range 2, but does it also let you ignore Escort?

I am just going to pipe in one last time, at the risk of being misunderstood yet again, to say that the larger issue with Demo isn't that the ship is an auto-win, isn't that "look at anecdotal evidence of XYZ tournament," it's that it harms the game by making it less diverse. I agree, we totally should wait to see what the meta does before anything happens, and my greatest hope is the new toys really do shake things up enough that Demolisher isn't as ubiquitous.

I think the point that I'm trying to make that some are failing to see isn't that "there's no way to beat Demolisher," it's the card's popularity, due to its ability to punch much above its weightclass, inhibits list diversity, which is harmful for the game. I agree, titles really should be powerful and Yavaris and Adomonition are great, but they aren't as widespread as Demolisher is.

I love this game more than any other table top game I've played, and I've jumped in 40k, Warmachine, Mercs, Infinity, BFG, and Firestorm, excluding other FFG games. I would hate to have our amazing game become boring or predictable, and I think the tale Shmitty's data tells is list diversity on the Imperial side is hindered due to certain things being extremely powerful.

Very well put. And I agree with Wu that waves 3-5 may be all the fix we need. Certainly, I believe they will go a ways in alleviating the issue. But absolutely in wave 2, there was almost no Imperial list I designed where not taking Demo was an organic function of the building process. My lists that didn't bring Demo were almost always a concious decision to avoid bringing it.

Lets put this into some context

Wave 2 Imperials have 4 ship types, ISD / VSD / Gladiator / Raider.

Most Imperials think VSD/Raiders are bad risks, don't enjoy using them, or don't do well using them.

Leaving the Imperial fleet build ISDs + Gladiators

Its not like there were 12 ship types to use, and Demolisher was always taken.

There were enough options that its consistent use is ubiquitous.

Roll and D6 and I get +1 to go first?

Ah, those were the days. Remember the dirty, dirty Wood Elves with their White Dwarf list that could get +2?

And is there a full spoiling of Snipe somewhere? As far as I can gather, it lets you attack at Range 2, but does it also let you ignore Escort?

The point about firing at Range 2, is that Escort only applies if you are Engaged with the Escort Fighter.

Snipe will allow you to engage no-one, and still shoot at them.

Roll and D6 and I get +1 to go first?

Ah, those were the days. Remember the dirty, dirty Wood Elves with their White Dwarf list that could get +2?

And is there a full spoiling of Snipe somewhere? As far as I can gather, it lets you attack at Range 2, but does it also let you ignore Escort?

The point about firing at Range 2, is that Escort only applies if you are Engaged with the Escort Fighter.

Snipe will allow you to engage no-one, and still shoot at them.

Ah, I gotcha. Thanks!

Is it confirmed what Snipe does or is it just a assumption from the community?

Is it confirmed what Snipe does or is it just a assumption from the community?

Its not confirmed, but that much can be read and inferred from the card...

Its going to be some variation of " You can shoot at a squadron within distance 2, utilising a number of blue dice equal to your Snipe value"...

What if we just nerfed engine techs instead of demolisher?

What if we just nerfed engine techs instead of demolisher?

How would you nerf it so that any other ship who likes having it wont be put out?

What if we just nerfed engine techs instead of demolisher?

Then you catch other perfectly fine Engine Techs combinations in the blast radius. Non-Demolisher Gladiators, MC80s, and the occasional Nebulon-B or CR90 are not part of the problem. You can nerf Demolisher+Engine Techs by simply "clarifying" that Demolisher's post-maneuver attack window triggers at the end of its first maneuver should there be more than one.