Did someone say "cheese"?

To be fair, there are some wonky titles out there...YAVARIS springs to mind...it's even more of an autoinclude than Demo (if you're mad enough to run Nebs in the first place).

And Jaina's Light...don't get me started on that one...best 2 pt investment in the game.

Admonition also lets you do great things (but here I think the cost/benefit ratio is a bit better).

What I like to see in game design is some kind of penalty when great benefits are provided. Yavaris requires the fighters to give up moves (and requires a Neb ). Admonition requires you to discard tokens making you more vulnerable later.

Demo...just Demolishes my hopes and dreams. And don't get me started on Jaina's Light (for the record Jaina's Light is awesome but it's not one shot an ISD awesome).

Right on, and I am not trying to be a naysayer. The forums are prone to hyperbole if anyone has any sort of contrary opinion. "You think Demolisher is problematic?! WHAT?! YOU MUST HATE BABIES TOO!"

I have been trumpeting the "Demo isn't broken" horn longer than most, and I still don't think he's broken, per se, but could use a slight tweak to somehow make it where he can't black range from outside of red range, is all.

Maybe just can't use Demolisher after engine techs?

@Caldias - you are spot on. I agree it needs some tweaking more than a huge nerf that I feel like most people are suggesting.

@ImpStarDeuces - its funny that you say this because that exact suggestion was brought to the attention of a dev or two and I think its a great option.

You have to remember that you can still hit black range from outside of red range without engine techs. It is harder to set up but I have seen it done reliably. Close range is HUGE!

You can, I am well aware, so long as your opponent moves at least speed two and doesn't juke and sets up at the maximum distance. The difference here is your opponent has to move into it.

Actually, no. Add close range to the end of a distance 3 move and then compare it to a range ruler.

That is 13" of threat against a 12" ruler. It can be done.

Did someone say "cheese"?

To be fair, there are some wonky titles out there...YAVARIS springs to mind...it's even more of an autoinclude than Demo (if you're mad enough to run Nebs in the first place).

And Jaina's Light...don't get me started on that one...best 2 pt investment in the game.

Admonition also lets you do great things (but here I think the cost/benefit ratio is a bit better).

Actually, I love to run a Neb with Salvation and a TRC (will be even better once Sato is out), it makes for a good sniper. I currently use it in a list with Dodonna as the Admiral.

For my Corvette, I love Tantive IV with Leia to gives tokens away to a ship that might need it and control the Command of my bigger ship that can adjust accordingly. I Jaina's Light only when I run my CR90 with a TRC, or when I have 2 points to spare and the vette doesn't already have a title.

Admonition is really good, when you want your MC30 to get into a knife fight. But a MC 30 in a Ackbar fleet might benefit more from Foresight if it wants to stay away and snipe.

So there is a reason to take those title before the one you listed. But for the Gladiator, I don't see a reason to take Insidious before Demolisher.

But for this comparaison, I don't think that the problem is that the Demolisher title is too good. I think it's more a problem of Insidious being meh. Too conditionnal, while Demolisher is so easy to benefit from. Demolisher is also good for new players that have yet to get used to plan ahead for their attack.

But I don't think a fix or nerf is needed.

Did someone say "cheese"?

To be fair, there are some wonky titles out there...YAVARIS springs to mind...it's even more of an autoinclude than Demo (if you're mad enough to run Nebs in the first place).

And Jaina's Light...don't get me started on that one...best 2 pt investment in the game.

Admonition also lets you do great things (but here I think the cost/benefit ratio is a bit better).

Actually, I love to run a Neb with Salvation and a TRC (will be even better once Sato is out), it makes for a good sniper. I currently use it in a list with Dodonna as the Admiral.

For my Corvette, I love Tantive IV with Leia to gives tokens away to a ship that might need it and control the Command of my bigger ship that can adjust accordingly. I Jaina's Light only when I run my CR90 with a TRC, or when I have 2 points to spare and the vette doesn't already have a title.

Admonition is really good, when you want your MC30 to get into a knife fight. But a MC 30 in a Ackbar fleet might benefit more from Foresight if it wants to stay away and snipe.

So there is a reason to take those title before the one you listed. But for the Gladiator, I don't see a reason to take Insidious before Demolisher.

But for this comparaison, I don't think that the problem is that the Demolisher title is too good. I think it's more a problem of Insidious being meh. Too conditionnal, while Demolisher is so easy to benefit from. Demolisher is also good for new players that have yet to get used to plan ahead for their attack.

But I don't think a fix or nerf is needed.

If you have hyperspace assault as one of your objectives (as empire) you should DEFINITELY include Insidious in your list. It pumps up that objective to ISD/MC80 with advanced gunnery level in my opinion. You can guarantee it won't get touched on the way in, and from the jump in you should be able to reach rear arcs med range no problem the rest of the game. In games in which my hyperspace assault was picked, Insidious was the real MVP hands down

Did someone say "cheese"?

To be fair, there are some wonky titles out there...YAVARIS springs to mind...it's even more of an autoinclude than Demo (if you're mad enough to run Nebs in the first place).

And Jaina's Light...don't get me started on that one...best 2 pt investment in the game.

Admonition also lets you do great things (but here I think the cost/benefit ratio is a bit better).

Actually, I love to run a Neb with Salvation and a TRC (will be even better once Sato is out), it makes for a good sniper. I currently use it in a list with Dodonna as the Admiral.

For my Corvette, I love Tantive IV with Leia to gives tokens away to a ship that might need it and control the Command of my bigger ship that can adjust accordingly. I Jaina's Light only when I run my CR90 with a TRC, or when I have 2 points to spare and the vette doesn't already have a title.

Admonition is really good, when you want your MC30 to get into a knife fight. But a MC 30 in a Ackbar fleet might benefit more from Foresight if it wants to stay away and snipe.

So there is a reason to take those title before the one you listed. But for the Gladiator, I don't see a reason to take Insidious before Demolisher.

But for this comparaison, I don't think that the problem is that the Demolisher title is too good. I think it's more a problem of Insidious being meh. Too conditionnal, while Demolisher is so easy to benefit from. Demolisher is also good for new players that have yet to get used to plan ahead for their attack.

But I don't think a fix or nerf is needed.

If you have hyperspace assault as one of your objectives (as empire) you should DEFINITELY include Insidious in your list. It pumps up that objective to ISD/MC80 with advanced gunnery level in my opinion. You can guarantee it won't get touched on the way in, and from the jump in you should be able to reach rear arcs med range no problem the rest of the game. In games in which my hyperspace assault was picked, Insidious was the real MVP hands down

I guess, yeah. But wouldn't you had pretty much the same benefit from Demolisher, minus maybe 2 black dice (attack from front first to use 2 red dice, then close in with Demolisher to make a broadside strike)? Only now he would have been useful in every game, even when your opponent didn't pick Hyperspace Assault, or better yet, when you were first player.

^And the Interdictor is going to make Hyperspace Assault really risky.

Did someone say "cheese"?

To be fair, there are some wonky titles out there...YAVARIS springs to mind...it's even more of an autoinclude than Demo (if you're mad enough to run Nebs in the first place).

And Jaina's Light...don't get me started on that one...best 2 pt investment in the game.

Admonition also lets you do great things (but here I think the cost/benefit ratio is a bit better).

Actually, I love to run a Neb with Salvation and a TRC (will be even better once Sato is out), it makes for a good sniper. I currently use it in a list with Dodonna as the Admiral.

For my Corvette, I love Tantive IV with Leia to gives tokens away to a ship that might need it and control the Command of my bigger ship that can adjust accordingly. I Jaina's Light only when I run my CR90 with a TRC, or when I have 2 points to spare and the vette doesn't already have a title.

Admonition is really good, when you want your MC30 to get into a knife fight. But a MC 30 in a Ackbar fleet might benefit more from Foresight if it wants to stay away and snipe.

So there is a reason to take those title before the one you listed. But for the Gladiator, I don't see a reason to take Insidious before Demolisher.

But for this comparaison, I don't think that the problem is that the Demolisher title is too good. I think it's more a problem of Insidious being meh. Too conditionnal, while Demolisher is so easy to benefit from. Demolisher is also good for new players that have yet to get used to plan ahead for their attack.

But I don't think a fix or nerf is needed.

If you have hyperspace assault as one of your objectives (as empire) you should DEFINITELY include Insidious in your list. It pumps up that objective to ISD/MC80 with advanced gunnery level in my opinion. You can guarantee it won't get touched on the way in, and from the jump in you should be able to reach rear arcs med range no problem the rest of the game. In games in which my hyperspace assault was picked, Insidious was the real MVP hands down

I guess, yeah. But wouldn't you had pretty much the same benefit from Demolisher, minus maybe 2 black dice (attack from front first to use 2 red dice, then close in with Demolisher to make a broadside strike)? Only now he would have been useful in every game, even when your opponent didn't pick Hyperspace Assault, or better yet, when you were first player.

I've jumped in Demo before too, but the problem there then is that you are removing Demo (and the threat radius he provides) for at least the first third of the game. And losing those two black dice and the possibility of proccing APT's twice can make a HUGE difference depending on the crit/hull remaining.

So we know Imperials have a few Demolisher counters. What about the rebels?

So we know Imperials have a few Demolisher counters. What about the rebels?

1) Riekaan

2) Squadrons + Yavaris

3) Overlapping fields of fire along the escape route

Riekaan is about as hard of a counter to the demo rush lists as there is. Demo counts on destroying a ship without fear of retaliation. Riekaan removes that possibility. Or if you don't want to use Riekaan, you can still toss Yavaris and a few b-wings in there to protect the flank demo will try to rush. It's very rare that demo could survive six rounds of blue/black bomber dice. Or just anticipate that demo is coming and position ships accordingly. Don't think that you have to stick to your original gameplan. When I see demo dropped on the table across from me, all my preconcieved notions of the game go out the window and I start to think "how can I make life really difficult for this demolisher right now". Odd's are it is the centerpiece of the enemy fleet, so if you neutralize it or make it very unfavorable for it to charge in against you, you will give your opponent a real headache.

A few points if I may:

1. Finalists at gencon had bids of 10 and 14 respectively... I would view these as middling bids rather than aggressive bid at going first...

2. The 14 bid list went first and lost... going first with demo is not auto win...

3. People will need nav officer in the post slicer tool world, losing Intel officer means the opponents brace is available for the entire triple tap

4. Targeting scrambler can significantly reduce the average damage on two of those taps, lando on one if those taps

I am just going to pipe in one last time, at the risk of being misunderstood yet again, to say that the larger issue with Demo isn't that the ship is an auto-win, isn't that "look at anecdotal evidence of XYZ tournament," it's that it harms the game by making it less diverse. I agree, we totally should wait to see what the meta does before anything happens, and my greatest hope is the new toys really do shake things up enough that Demolisher isn't as ubiquitous.

I think the point that I'm trying to make that some are failing to see isn't that "there's no way to beat Demolisher," it's the card's popularity, due to its ability to punch much above its weightclass, inhibits list diversity, which is harmful for the game. I agree, titles really should be powerful and Yavaris and Adomonition are great, but they aren't as widespread as Demolisher is.

I love this game more than any other table top game I've played, and I've jumped in 40k, Warmachine, Mercs, Infinity, BFG, and Firestorm, excluding other FFG games. I would hate to have our amazing game become boring or predictable, and I think the tale Shmitty's data tells is list diversity on the Imperial side is hindered due to certain things being extremely powerful.

I'd Add "and there being no other interesting options."

Which will change.

I am just going to pipe in one last time, at the risk of being misunderstood yet again, to say that the larger issue with Demo isn't that the ship is an auto-win, isn't that "look at anecdotal evidence of XYZ tournament," it's that it harms the game by making it less diverse. I agree, we totally should wait to see what the meta does before anything happens, and my greatest hope is the new toys really do shake things up enough that Demolisher isn't as ubiquitous.

I think the point that I'm trying to make that some are failing to see isn't that "there's no way to beat Demolisher," it's the card's popularity, due to its ability to punch much above its weightclass, inhibits list diversity, which is harmful for the game. I agree, titles really should be powerful and Yavaris and Adomonition are great, but they aren't as widespread as Demolisher is.

I love this game more than any other table top game I've played, and I've jumped in 40k, Warmachine, Mercs, Infinity, BFG, and Firestorm, excluding other FFG games. I would hate to have our amazing game become boring or predictable, and I think the tale Shmitty's data tells is list diversity on the Imperial side is hindered due to certain things being extremely powerful.

Oh you are so dead wrong. This one time I played a game and it was not at all like you described so you are certainly not correct here.

If you look at the statistics I've posted on my webblog entitled "WuFame: The Sausage King of Armada" you'll see the anecdotal data I've collected from the community completely backs up my facts here.

Edit: Sidenote, you're coming off extremely naive now, and I really don't know why you think Demolisher is so overpowered when Jaina's Light is a title.

I've beaten Demo builds that both outbid and out-activated me. I'm not trying to brag, but I'd argue that it's a problem of fleet composition if you have to bid 30 points for your list to stand a chance.

I have too, but the fact that you can cut 30-40 points for a bid and handily beat players that are out activated is problematic, right?

well 30-40 points (and I have never seen a bid that high in real life) is still only half a "normal" ship, sometimes less. Its a CR90 going down without answer. Its half the value of Admo getting short range to a VSD.

I faced a person at Regionals that had a 47 point bid. Guess what ship he was flying... Edit: AND he wasn't the highest bid there. CN had a 49 point bid. Guess what ship he was flying...

I think it's really hard to talk about nerfing Demo at this point though, since we haven't had a chance to see Waves 3 and 4 settle in and show us how the meta will be affected.

Rebel lies!

I actually was at 373 (27 point bid).

I actually think Demo is fine where its at. It will be continually challenged by all of the new stuff coming out.

A smaller, multiple activation fleet will always be part of the game, but you can see that FFG is slowly giving all of us the tools to deal with them more and more.

****. I swore you had a really high one. Alright, well, I completely rewrite history as I experience it.

I agree on your point, and I have no place to talk with my own swarm preference. I think Waves 3 and 4 indirectly answer a lot of the issues which is good, and may be all the "nerf" we need.

Also, CN, when you going to change your signature to read "2016 WuFame Regional Dream Ruiner"

I am just going to pipe in one last time, at the risk of being misunderstood yet again, to say that the larger issue with Demo isn't that the ship is an auto-win, isn't that "look at anecdotal evidence of XYZ tournament," it's that it harms the game by making it less diverse. I agree, we totally should wait to see what the meta does before anything happens, and my greatest hope is the new toys really do shake things up enough that Demolisher isn't as ubiquitous.

I think the point that I'm trying to make that some are failing to see isn't that "there's no way to beat Demolisher," it's the card's popularity, due to its ability to punch much above its weightclass, inhibits list diversity, which is harmful for the game. I agree, titles really should be powerful and Yavaris and Adomonition are great, but they aren't as widespread as Demolisher is.

I love this game more than any other table top game I've played, and I've jumped in 40k, Warmachine, Mercs, Infinity, BFG, and Firestorm, excluding other FFG games. I would hate to have our amazing game become boring or predictable, and I think the tale Shmitty's data tells is list diversity on the Imperial side is hindered due to certain things being extremely powerful.

Very well put. And I agree with Wu that waves 3-5 may be all the fix we need. Certainly, I believe they will go a ways in alleviating the issue. But absolutely in wave 2, there was almost no Imperial list I designed where not taking Demo was an organic function of the building process. My lists that didn't bring Demo were almost always a concious decision to avoid bringing it.

I'd Add "and there being no other interesting options."

Which will change.

And I dont want to see first player nerfed, I want to see second player strengthened. There should be objectives that woefully four second player to a ridiculous extent.

Good News! We're getting 12 more to Choose From!

Good News! We're getting 12 more to Choose From!

I have so much hope invested in those

If they showed me Dust Clouds right now, then I'd probably be happy with the 3 we've been spoiled

I'd Add "and there being no other interesting options."

Which will change.

And I dont want to see first player nerfed, I want to see second player strengthened. There should be objectives that woefully four second player to a ridiculous extent.

I think another simple fix would be allow, second player to choose one of his objectives, or probably a little more reasonable, the second player only presents two out of the three objectives for the first player to choose.

I'd Add "and there being no other interesting options."

Which will change.

And I dont want to see first player nerfed, I want to see second player strengthened. There should be objectives that woefully four second player to a ridiculous extent.

I think another simple fix would be allow, second player to choose on of his objectives, or probably a little more reasonable, the second player only presents two out of the three objectives for the first player to choose.

Be careful what you wish for. If something like this is implemented, I can see people doing high bids to go second with the appropriate list.

I'd Add "and there being no other interesting options."

Which will change.

And I dont want to see first player nerfed, I want to see second player strengthened. There should be objectives that woefully four second player to a ridiculous extent.

I think another simple fix would be allow, second player to choose on of his objectives, or probably a little more reasonable, the second player only presents two out of the three objectives for the first player to choose.

Be careful what you wish for. If something like this is implemented, I can see people doing high bids to go second with the appropriate list.

And? Was your regional success not greatly helped by your opponents choosing to make you go first?

Second player should be desirable!

I'd Add "and there being no other interesting options."

Which will change.

And I dont want to see first player nerfed, I want to see second player strengthened. There should be objectives that woefully four second player to a ridiculous extent.

I think another simple fix would be allow, second player to choose on of his objectives, or probably a little more reasonable, the second player only presents two out of the three objectives for the first player to choose.

Be careful what you wish for. If something like this is implemented, I can see people doing high bids to go second with the appropriate list.

And? Was your regional success not greatly helped by your opponents choosing to make you go first?

Second player should be desirable!

I've recently discovered the only semi-reliable way to beat Caldias is to sacrifice 3 lambs and to make him go first.

Edit: Cal isn't throwing demo down my throat though, so different strokes and all.