Why would they change the initiative system? Not just a single 2 ship list made it to the top tables but two made it there. There is nothing wrong with the initiative system.

The problem with the initiative system is people are "paying" 30 point bids to go first with Demolisher. If a 10 point title is so good that going first is worth 30 points, then that is problematic to fleet diversity. And, as an MC30 player, last/first list pretty darn strong.

Why would they change the initiative system? Not just a single 2 ship list made it to the top tables but two made it there. There is nothing wrong with the initiative system.

The problem with the initiative system is people are "paying" 30 point bids to go first with Demolisher. If a 10 point title is so good that going first is worth 30 points, then that is problematic to fleet diversity. And, as an MC30 player, last/first list pretty darn strong.

Oh, I know the MC30 loves first and last.

If it is so strong why was it not in the top as much?

Demolisher is on the top so it is less of an initiative issue and more of a Demolisher issue.

Why would they change the initiative system? Not just a single 2 ship list made it to the top tables but two made it there. There is nothing wrong with the initiative system.

The problem with the initiative system is people are "paying" 30 point bids to go first with Demolisher. If a 10 point title is so good that going first is worth 30 points, then that is problematic to fleet diversity. And, as an MC30 player, last/first list pretty darn strong.

In all fairness, Demo is never just a 10 point title. It is a 10 point title with an additional 20-30 points of upgrades, gambling that its 5 hull will last long enough for it to triple tap a big target.

Why would they change the initiative system? Not just a single 2 ship list made it to the top tables but two made it there. There is nothing wrong with the initiative system.

The problem with the initiative system is people are "paying" 30 point bids to go first with Demolisher. If a 10 point title is so good that going first is worth 30 points, then that is problematic to fleet diversity. And, as an MC30 player, last/first list pretty darn strong.

In all fairness, Demo is never just a 10 point title. It is a 10 point title with an additional 20-30 points of upgrades, gambling that its 5 hull will last long enough for it to triple tap a big target.

Sure, but people are still bidding 30+ points for first player, and I promise you they aren't doing that for Intel Officer. When the only viable way to beat something is to out bid or out activate it, that is problematic.

I've beaten Demo builds that both outbid and out-activated me. I'm not trying to brag, but I'd argue that it's a problem of fleet composition if you have to bid 30 points for your list to stand a chance.

I've beaten Demo builds that both outbid and out-activated me. I'm not trying to brag, but I'd argue that it's a problem of fleet composition if you have to bid 30 points for your list to stand a chance.

I have too, but the fact that you can cut 30-40 points for a bid and handily beat players that are out activated is problematic, right?

Slicer Beams is going to go a ways to helping work on Demolisher I think. It might not fully counter Demolisher but it is a great trap.

It just means you have to put a Nav Officer on the upgrade list and maybe lose a TIE Bomber to pay for it.

Wave 4 brings some serious "Speed Adjustment" shenanigans which may help. Flotillas also provide some good cheap activations that can also mess with the lists ability to go last and then first. The big question though is can your "anti-demo" upgrades create a viable fleet that can deal with a variety of lists or will it be too specialised?

I've beaten Demo builds that both outbid and out-activated me. I'm not trying to brag, but I'd argue that it's a problem of fleet composition if you have to bid 30 points for your list to stand a chance.

I have too, but the fact that you can cut 30-40 points for a bid and handily beat players that are out activated is problematic, right?

well 30-40 points (and I have never seen a bid that high in real life) is still only half a "normal" ship, sometimes less. Its a CR90 going down without answer. Its half the value of Admo getting short range to a VSD.

What's slicer beams?

--

Also FFG released Black Market Slicer Tools for Xwing that supposed to counter Ace-PTL builds extremely heavy-handedly. Hard hard counter.

I'm biased against anything slicer related now.

Slicer Beams is going to go a ways to helping work on Demolisher I think. It might not fully counter Demolisher but it is a great trap.

It just means you have to put a Nav Officer on the upgrade list and maybe lose a TIE Bomber to pay for it.

Wave 4 brings some serious "Speed Adjustment" shenanigans which may help. Flotillas also provide some good cheap activations that can also mess with the lists ability to go last and then first. The big question though is can your "anti-demo" upgrades create a viable fleet that can deal with a variety of lists or will it be too specialised?

What's slicer beams?

--

Also FFG released Black Market Slicer Tools for Xwing that supposed to counter Ace-PTL builds extremely heavy-handedly. Hard hard counter.

I'm biased against anything slicer related now.

I still like the idea that the player with less activations gets to pick initiative. Activation advantage is the biggest deal, and having a last/first is really strong.

So the player with the biggest ship and most sauadrons that can punch hardest at the start of a turn goes first....

I've beaten Demo builds that both outbid and out-activated me. I'm not trying to brag, but I'd argue that it's a problem of fleet composition if you have to bid 30 points for your list to stand a chance.

I have too, but the fact that you can cut 30-40 points for a bid and handily beat players that are out activated is problematic, right?

well 30-40 points (and I have never seen a bid that high in real life) is still only half a "normal" ship, sometimes less. Its a CR90 going down without answer. Its half the value of Admo getting short range to a VSD.

I still like the idea that the player with less activations gets to pick initiative. Activation advantage is the biggest deal, and having a last/first is really strong.

So the player with the biggest ship and most sauadrons that can punch hardest at the start of a turn goes first....

...yeah, because Gencon proved that those list really need a boost

I have too, but the fact that you can cut 30-40 points for a bid and handily beat players that are out activated is problematic, right?

Situationally. I think it shows the potential diversity of the game that such a list can be competitive.

There are many pathways to success. This is one of them.

Utter rubbish.

Read the action report for the Gencon finals table. Demolisher didnt win that fight, or even have particular influence on the result.

A Gladiator currently makes a good playmate for the ISD in being a maneuverable flanker. The title just happens to be worth its value. Its like taking an MC30 without Admonition, its just silly. Or a CR90 without Jainas Light.

Do you want to nerf them all?

Gladiators have weaknesses, learn to utilise them.

I agree 100%.

Let me add that I managed to squeak my way into 4th and I had a Demo in my build and in my last two games I dont think Demo shot once because my opponents were both smart players and put me in positions that if I ran Demo in it would have been killed and it would not have necessarily killed its target. So instead I used the threat of of Demo to my advantage and was able to win that way.

I have said this many times but what gets lost on many people is the fact that the Empire is much more limited in the competitive lists its can generate pre-Wave 3 than the rebels so that is another big reason you see Demo in many lists. Wave 3 and 4 are going to change that a lot and it looks like the Campaign and Wave 5 are going to push that envelope even further. I am sure FFG wont decide to do any tweaks to anything until those waves have been hitting the competitive scene for some time to do some more analysis. So just sit back and chill and enjoy the game and all the great things coming up.

Right on, and I am not trying to be a naysayer. The forums are prone to hyperbole if anyone has any sort of contrary opinion. "You think Demolisher is problematic?! WHAT?! YOU MUST HATE BABIES TOO!"

I have been trumpeting the "Demo isn't broken" horn longer than most, and I still don't think he's broken, per se, but could use a slight tweak to somehow make it where he can't black range from outside of red range, is all.

Right on, and I am not trying to be a naysayer. The forums are prone to hyperbole if anyone has any sort of contrary opinion. "You think Demolisher is problematic?! WHAT?! YOU MUST HATE BABIES TOO!"

I have been trumpeting the "Demo isn't broken" horn longer than most, and I still don't think he's broken, per se, but could use a slight tweak to somehow make it where he can't black range from outside of red range, is all.

Maybe just can't use Demolisher after engine techs?

Right on, and I am not trying to be a naysayer. The forums are prone to hyperbole if anyone has any sort of contrary opinion. "You think Demolisher is problematic?! WHAT?! YOU MUST HATE BABIES TOO!"

I have been trumpeting the "Demo isn't broken" horn longer than most, and I still don't think he's broken, per se, but could use a slight tweak to somehow make it where he can't black range from outside of red range, is all.

Maybe just can't use Demolisher after engine techs?

@Caldias - you are spot on. I agree it needs some tweaking more than a huge nerf that I feel like most people are suggesting.

@ImpStarDeuces - its funny that you say this because that exact suggestion was brought to the attention of a dev or two and I think its a great option.

I've beaten Demo builds that both outbid and out-activated me. I'm not trying to brag, but I'd argue that it's a problem of fleet composition if you have to bid 30 points for your list to stand a chance.

I have too, but the fact that you can cut 30-40 points for a bid and handily beat players that are out activated is problematic, right?

well 30-40 points (and I have never seen a bid that high in real life) is still only half a "normal" ship, sometimes less. Its a CR90 going down without answer. Its half the value of Admo getting short range to a VSD.

I faced a person at Regionals that had a 47 point bid. Guess what ship he was flying... Edit: AND he wasn't the highest bid there. CN had a 49 point bid. Guess what ship he was flying...

I think it's really hard to talk about nerfing Demo at this point though, since we haven't had a chance to see Waves 3 and 4 settle in and show us how the meta will be affected.

Right on, and I am not trying to be a naysayer. The forums are prone to hyperbole if anyone has any sort of contrary opinion. "You think Demolisher is problematic?! WHAT?! YOU MUST HATE BABIES TOO!"

I have been trumpeting the "Demo isn't broken" horn longer than most, and I still don't think he's broken, per se, but could use a slight tweak to somehow make it where he can't black range from outside of red range, is all.

Maybe just can't use Demolisher after engine techs?

@Caldias - you are spot on. I agree it needs some tweaking more than a huge nerf that I feel like most people are suggesting.

@ImpStarDeuces - its funny that you say this because that exact suggestion was brought to the attention of a dev or two and I think its a great option.

Yay, I'd like to think I make a good suggestion every once in awhile and even if I'm not the first to think of it at least there's some reinforcement in consensus.

IMO I'd still rather see a change to the initiative system because I believe it gives too many bonuses to the first player, but a simple FAQ clarifying that Demolisher must be used before Engine Techs would probably work. It would turn Demolisher into a real skill piece because I believe you can still hit black dice range from outside of red dice range but that is a really tight window.

Did someone say "cheese"?

To be fair, there are some wonky titles out there...YAVARIS springs to mind...it's even more of an autoinclude than Demo (if you're mad enough to run Nebs in the first place).

And Jaina's Light...don't get me started on that one...best 2 pt investment in the game.

Admonition also lets you do great things (but here I think the cost/benefit ratio is a bit better).

Right on, and I am not trying to be a naysayer. The forums are prone to hyperbole if anyone has any sort of contrary opinion. "You think Demolisher is problematic?! WHAT?! YOU MUST HATE BABIES TOO!"

I have been trumpeting the "Demo isn't broken" horn longer than most, and I still don't think he's broken, per se, but could use a slight tweak to somehow make it where he can't black range from outside of red range, is all.

Maybe just can't use Demolisher after engine techs?

@Caldias - you are spot on. I agree it needs some tweaking more than a huge nerf that I feel like most people are suggesting.

@ImpStarDeuces - its funny that you say this because that exact suggestion was brought to the attention of a dev or two and I think its a great option.

You have to remember that you can still hit black range from outside of red range without engine techs. It is harder to set up but I have seen it done reliably. Close range is HUGE!

Right on, and I am not trying to be a naysayer. The forums are prone to hyperbole if anyone has any sort of contrary opinion. "You think Demolisher is problematic?! WHAT?! YOU MUST HATE BABIES TOO!"

I have been trumpeting the "Demo isn't broken" horn longer than most, and I still don't think he's broken, per se, but could use a slight tweak to somehow make it where he can't black range from outside of red range, is all.

Maybe just can't use Demolisher after engine techs?

@Caldias - you are spot on. I agree it needs some tweaking more than a huge nerf that I feel like most people are suggesting.

@ImpStarDeuces - its funny that you say this because that exact suggestion was brought to the attention of a dev or two and I think its a great option.

You have to remember that you can still hit black range from outside of red range without engine techs. It is harder to set up but I have seen it done reliably. Close range is HUGE!

You can, I am well aware, so long as your opponent moves at least speed two and doesn't juke and sets up at the maximum distance. The difference here is your opponent has to move into it.

Did someone say "cheese"?

To be fair, there are some wonky titles out there...YAVARIS springs to mind...it's even more of an autoinclude than Demo (if you're mad enough to run Nebs in the first place).

And Jaina's Light...don't get me started on that one...best 2 pt investment in the game.

Admonition also lets you do great things (but here I think the cost/benefit ratio is a bit better).

I really need to play you. . . I want to show you that nebs are not as bad as you like to think.