Anybody doing a "friendly" game in the near future?

If so, give this a shot. Play the Demo title on a MC-30 in a rebel fleet. Have your opponent play an actual Demo. Design your fleets around these concepts and report back to here with your findings.

Things to ponder:

Was the game fun?

Did it help keep Demo in check in any way?

Did it feel like the teams were on more even terms?

Are you alergic to shelfish?

Did the inclusion of two Demo type ships even change anything?

I'm not sure if this is even a fix, really. It might just compound the issue, where if it were a legit title for rebel fleets they'd just include one in every build as well, similar to Demo and Imperial builds. Still, curiosity has me, and I'd like to see how it goes. Maybe it could alleviate some of the complaints by Rebel players.

Also, if it works and FFG is reading this and decides to implement it, the ship title needs to be called Righteous Indignation.

By the way, just to make this as blunt as possible. Top 4 of GenCon, the BIGGEST tournament we have had to date I think, was 4 Imperial players, ALL running Demolisher. #7 and 8 were not running demolisher but were Imperial so 6 out of 8 were imperial at the very least.

A slight correction. #1-#4 all had Demolisher (3 of them had Rhymer as well), #5-#6 were Rebels, #7 was Imperial with Demolisher (at least it looks like Demolisher based on his list)an #8 was Imperial without Demolisher.I'm personally in agreement with Ardaedhel: it's not about Demolisher being unbeatable, it's about limiting list-building options. Wave 3 and 4 will bring some anti-Demo tools, however I feel that by itself it won't be enough. In my mind removing the ability to shoot after ET is the right way to go here. (And this is not errata, but FAQ change, same as XI7 change, so it is small enough to be in line with other changes FFG does)

So yeah, this would be a good, sensible idea to implement, since it's more FAQ than errata.

Good call.

By the way, just to make this as blunt as possible. Top 4 of GenCon, the BIGGEST tournament we have had to date I think, was 4 Imperial players, ALL running Demolisher. #7 and 8 were not running demolisher but were Imperial so 6 out of 8 were imperial at the very least.

...

So I am right. At the very least 50% of the Top 8 of Gencon were Demolisher players and at least 100% of the Top 4 were Demolisher players.

7th place was one of our local players, and he used Demolisher.

What the data suggests here is even worse than you're stating, Lyraeus. Against some of the best competition there is, Demolisher is a component of almost all the top lists. One of the things I constantly tell people about Armada is that the game is not won with fleet construction (it can be lost if you just throw random stuff together). However, the data is suggesting that Demolisher definitely increases the chances of winning when used by skilled players.

By the way, just to make this as blunt as possible. Top 4 of GenCon, the BIGGEST tournament we have had to date I think, was 4 Imperial players, ALL running Demolisher. #7 and 8 were not running demolisher but were Imperial so 6 out of 8 were imperial at the very least.

A slight correction. #1-#4 all had Demolisher (3 of them had Rhymer as well), #5-#6 were Rebels, #7 was Imperial with Demolisher (at least it looks like Demolisher based on his list)an #8 was Imperial without Demolisher.

I'm personally in agreement with Ardaedhel: it's not about Demolisher being unbeatable, it's about limiting list-building options. Wave 3 and 4 will bring some anti-Demo tools, however I feel that by itself it won't be enough. In my mind removing the ability to shoot after ET is the right way to go here. (And this is not errata, but FAQ change, same as XI7 change, so it is small enough to be in line with other changes FFG does)

Without spilling too many of the beans, let's just say I could paraphrase a few statements to the following:

• "It's a problem that it can go from outside of long range into firing three times in a row."
• "It's in all the top lists because it's an obvious take, like Rhymer."
• "It's in basically every Imperial list, and the only time it's not is when there is no Gladiator."

I know for a fact FFG is looking at Demolisher in this light. I think their perspective (which is smart) is to wait and see what impact 3/4 have, but if the problem persists, I would expect at least a tweak for Demolisher.

I also want to echo pt106 and Ardaedhel in that the problem is not that it always wins, but that it always shows up and deforms the design space. There are other ships I feel are used significantly less (Neb B, for instance) because of how susceptible they are to Demolisher one-shots.

You do not need Demolisher to one shot a Neb B.

Player one and a double arc from a Raider can do it, a Gladiator, or an ~ISD, hell even a Vic could double arc kill a Neb B, being player one and moving it into position at the end of a round.

You do not need Demolisher to one shot a Neb B.

Player one and a double arc from a Raider can do it, a Gladiator, or an ~ISD, hell even a Vic could double arc kill a Neb B, being player one and moving it into position at the end of a round.

True, however it is much easier to do with Demolisher. Making a double arc to a side with ISD (I'm not even talking about a Victory) is much harder than you would think. And I don't think a double-arc to a front would kill it with average rolls.

By the way, just to make this as blunt as possible. Top 4 of GenCon, the BIGGEST tournament we have had to date I think, was 4 Imperial players, ALL running Demolisher. #7 and 8 were not running demolisher but were Imperial so 6 out of 8 were imperial at the very least.

A slight correction. #1-#4 all had Demolisher (3 of them had Rhymer as well), #5-#6 were Rebels, #7 was Imperial with Demolisher (at least it looks like Demolisher based on his list)an #8 was Imperial without Demolisher.

I'm personally in agreement with Ardaedhel: it's not about Demolisher being unbeatable, it's about limiting list-building options. Wave 3 and 4 will bring some anti-Demo tools, however I feel that by itself it won't be enough. In my mind removing the ability to shoot after ET is the right way to go here. (And this is not errata, but FAQ change, same as XI7 change, so it is small enough to be in line with other changes FFG does)

Without spilling too many of the beans, let's just say I could paraphrase a few statements to the following:

• "It's a problem that it can go from outside of long range into firing three times in a row."
• "It's in all the top lists because it's an obvious take, like Rhymer."
• "It's in basically every Imperial list, and the only time it's not is when there is no Gladiator."

I know for a fact FFG is looking at Demolisher in this light. I think their perspective (which is smart) is to wait and see what impact 3/4 have, but if the problem persists, I would expect at least a tweak for Demolisher.

I also want to echo pt106 and Ardaedhel in that the problem is not that it always wins, but that it always shows up and deforms the design space. There are other ships I feel are used significantly less (Neb B, for instance) because of how susceptible they are to Demolisher one-shots.

Which means Worlds. . . We will see any changes after Worlds.

Anybody doing a "friendly" game in the near future?

If so, give this a shot. Play the Demo title on a MC-30 in a rebel fleet. Have your opponent play an actual Demo. Design your fleets around these concepts and report back to here with your findings.

Things to ponder:

Was the game fun?

Did it help keep Demo in check in any way?

Did it feel like the teams were on more even terms?

Are you alergic to shelfish?

Did the inclusion of two Demo type ships even change anything?

I'm not sure if this is even a fix, really. It might just compound the issue, where if it were a legit title for rebel fleets they'd just include one in every build as well, similar to Demo and Imperial builds. Still, curiosity has me, and I'd like to see how it goes. Maybe it could alleviate some of the complaints by Rebel players.

Also, if it works and FFG is reading this and decides to implement it, the ship title needs to be called Righteous Indignation.

I believe calling it "Hindsight" would be more appropriate

You do not need Demolisher to one shot a Neb B.

Player one and a double arc from a Raider can do it, a Gladiator, or an ~ISD, hell even a Vic could double arc kill a Neb B, being player one and moving it into position at the end of a round.

True, however it is much easier to do with Demolisher. Making a double arc to a side with ISD (I'm not even talking about a Victory) is much harder than you would think. And I don't think a double-arc to a front would kill it with average rolls.

I played with Avenger ISD+OLP on one ship for quite a while trying to get it to work, and yes while somewhat harder, it is not that hard to do with a high activation fleet, and some practice.

And a non demolisher gladiator will kill one just as fast as a demolisher.

Point I am making is, I don't buy "Demolisher" is the reason why Neb B's aren't popular.

Every single tournament I've been to has had Rebels with Yavaris (high amount) and Salvation (average amount).

You do not need Demolisher to one shot a Neb B.

Player one and a double arc from a Raider can do it, a Gladiator, or an ~ISD, hell even a Vic could double arc kill a Neb B, being player one and moving it into position at the end of a round.

True, however it is much easier to do with Demolisher. Making a double arc to a side with ISD (I'm not even talking about a Victory) is much harder than you would think. And I don't think a double-arc to a front would kill it with average rolls.

I played with Avenger ISD+OLP on one ship for quite a while trying to get it to work, and yes while somewhat harder, it is not that hard to do with a high activation fleet, and some practice.

And a non demolisher gladiator will kill one just as fast as a demolisher.

Point I am making is, I don't buy "Demolisher" is the reason why Neb B's aren't popular.

Every single tournament I've been to has had Rebels with Yavaris (high amount) and Salvation (average amount).

I'm not talking about double arc in general, I'm talking about double arc to a side of a ship that is trying to protect it.

And a regular double-tap from the Gladiator to a front will need to do 8 damage after brace, thats way above average.

People are silly. I will take a 3 Neb list for kicks (no to any regionals or anything but for under that, why not)

You do not need Demolisher to one shot a Neb B.

Player one and a double arc from a Raider can do it, a Gladiator, or an ~ISD, hell even a Vic could double arc kill a Neb B, being player one and moving it into position at the end of a round.

True, however it is much easier to do with Demolisher. Making a double arc to a side with ISD (I'm not even talking about a Victory) is much harder than you would think. And I don't think a double-arc to a front would kill it with average rolls.

I played with Avenger ISD+OLP on one ship for quite a while trying to get it to work, and yes while somewhat harder, it is not that hard to do with a high activation fleet, and some practice.

And a non demolisher gladiator will kill one just as fast as a demolisher.

Point I am making is, I don't buy "Demolisher" is the reason why Neb B's aren't popular.

Every single tournament I've been to has had Rebels with Yavaris (high amount) and Salvation (average amount).

I'm not talking about double arc in general, I'm talking about double arc to a side of a ship that is trying to protect it.

And a regular double-tap from the Gladiator to a front will need to do 8 damage after brace, thats way above average.

Why are we only shooting the Neb in the front? it's side arcs are larger than its front arcs, and it is not at all difficult to get into a side shot on one.

Again a Gladiator with ET and easily set up a side double arc shot, and usually when people talk about 1 shotting with a Demo triple tap, they are including 1/2/3 rams in that as needed to take the big ship out. I am not.

Demo is not the reason for lack of Neb B's.

it's side arcs are larger than its front arcs, and it is not at all difficult to get into a side shot on one.

I'm not sure this is true, however if you can do this reliably, I'm impressed.

it's side arcs are larger than its front arcs, and it is not at all difficult to get into a side shot on one.

I'm not sure this is true, however if you can do this reliably, I'm impressed.

Sure my nebs get hit in the side at times but not as much as one thinks

it's side arcs are larger than its front arcs, and it is not at all difficult to get into a side shot on one.

I'm not sure this is true, however if you can do this reliably, I'm impressed.

Sure my nebs get hit in the side at times but not as much as one thinks

The Neb is probably the one ship that most needs a general buff. The design team fumbled that one. Sorry, but that's the sad truth.

The Neb is probably the one ship that most needs a general buff. The design team fumbled that one. Sorry, but that's the sad truth.

I will challenge you and prove differently!

it's side arcs are larger than its front arcs, and it is not at all difficult to get into a side shot on one.

I'm not sure this is true, however if you can do this reliably, I'm impressed.

Neb front arc is 4cm wide, its side is nearly twice that at 7cms.

Come on, a Gladiator with ET struggling to set up a double arc shot?

A gladiators arcs will allow it to double arc into a Nebs side from virtually any position where they are parallel to each other, starting with the front of the Neb being level with the front end of the Gladiator, and them being about 2cm away from each other, going all the way till about 1cm short of the end of the Neb, so that is a 6cm window, and that is just parallel to each other.

Although I think demo is just fine and needs no fix, a simple solution would be an errata reprint reducing the title price to 8 pts and changing text to: you may choose to perform one attack after executing a maneuver, if you do you cannot fire before moving.

Although I think demo is just fine and needs no fix, a simple solution would be an errata reprint reducing the title price to 8 pts and changing text to: you may choose to perform one attack after executing a maneuver, if you do you cannot fire before moving.

Or just reduce its threat range by making it Demolisher can't fire off of Engine Techs

That would greatly, and I mean greatly, reduce its threat and triple-tip at the same time while still keeping it very competitive.

The Neb is probably the one ship that most needs a general buff. The design team fumbled that one. Sorry, but that's the sad truth.

I will challenge you and prove differently!

It just goes to show that Rebels have to be more skilled than those simple point and shoot Imp triangles. Mwahahaha!

The Neb is probably the one ship that most needs a general buff. The design team fumbled that one. Sorry, but that's the sad truth.

I will challenge you and prove differently!

I disagree as well. They are tricky, fragile and unforgiving , but that doesn't mean they are poorly designed.

It just goes to show that Rebels have to be more skilled than those simple point and shoot Imp triangles. Mwahahaha!

They really do. People want to go fast with Nebs but you cant, they need to react!

Although I think demo is just fine and needs no fix, a simple solution would be an errata reprint reducing the title price to 8 pts and changing text to: you may choose to perform one attack after executing a maneuver, if you do you cannot fire before moving.

Or just reduce its threat range by making it Demolisher can't fire off of Engine Techs

That would greatly, and I mean greatly, reduce its threat and triple-tip at the same time while still keeping it very competitive.

I've been firmly in the 'leave it the hell alone' camp for a long while, despite being a predominantly Rebel player. This, however, is the nerf to do if there is a nerf to be done. ETs combined with the title are the true threat. It's what allows Demolisher to remain outside of any firing range and pounce into close range. Make the move then fire only speed 3, it becomes harder to pull off.

However, as I've said, I don't fear Demolisher anymore. Rieekan was a good start. Now wave 3 and 4 have given us even better tools.

The Neb is probably the one ship that most needs a general buff. The design team fumbled that one. Sorry, but that's the sad truth.

I will challenge you and prove differently!

I disagree as well. They are tricky, fragile and unforgiving , but that doesn't mean they are poorly designed.

It just goes to show that Rebels have to be more skilled than those simple point and shoot Imp triangles. Mwahahaha!

They really do. People want to go fast with Nebs but you cant, they need to react!

With Madine, I'm thinking about giving them Engine Techs and getting aggressive.... Probably a bad idea, but it'll shock my opponent for a sec to have Salvation in his face right away.

Then it'll die.

The Neb is probably the one ship that most needs a general buff. The design team fumbled that one. Sorry, but that's the sad truth.

I will challenge you and prove differently!

I disagree as well. They are tricky, fragile and unforgiving , but that doesn't mean they are poorly designed.

It just goes to show that Rebels have to be more skilled than those simple point and shoot Imp triangles. Mwahahaha!

They really do. People want to go fast with Nebs but you cant, they need to react!

With Madine, I'm thinking about giving them Engine Techs and getting aggressive.... Probably a bad idea, but it'll shock my opponent for a sec to have Salvation in his face right away.

Then it'll die.

Sato. . . If I make top 7 or 8th place for Vassal I will run a Nebulon Sato Fleet!

The Neb is probably the one ship that most needs a general buff. The design team fumbled that one. Sorry, but that's the sad truth.

I will challenge you and prove differently!

I disagree as well. They are tricky, fragile and unforgiving , but that doesn't mean they are poorly designed.

It just goes to show that Rebels have to be more skilled than those simple point and shoot Imp triangles. Mwahahaha!

They really do. People want to go fast with Nebs but you cant, they need to react!

With Madine, I'm thinking about giving them Engine Techs and getting aggressive.... Probably a bad idea, but it'll shock my opponent for a sec to have Salvation in his face right away.

Then it'll die.

Sato. . . If I make top 7 or 8th place for Vassal I will run a Nebulon Sato Fleet!

Oh.

Salvation, Sato, Spinal, CF....

Red, red, black, black, black at long range.

Oh my....