as said above, the rules are (surprisingly) incredibly clear cut

I don't begrudge or intend to belittle anyone who thought otherwise, though. Hell, I had to look this **** up because I also thought critical damage referred to "being dealt a face-up damage card"

we were wrong, and it's due to a very common association between CRITs and face-up damage cards. Nothing to worry about, we just have to dissociate the two things in order to play the game correctly

do note, however, that that's the extent of my certainty. I can't do anything but guess as to a few crucial things, some of which have come up in this thread (most pointedly, who is dealing the face-up card? Is it the ship that did the critical damage that triggered the condition? Is it the ship that kylo's on? It's technically the condition itself, but is that even a gameplay entity? )

but honestly, the biggest problem is FFG picked the worst goddamn name for the condition

"I Will Show You The Dark Side"...for real? Six goddamn words? How am I supposed to discuss this **** online without having that phrase permanently cntrl + Ced ?

which is why, if I ever say it's Kylo's effect that deals the face-up damage card, I don't mean the actual crew/pilot. The crew/pilot just deals out the condition, the condition does the rest.

Suck It Corran!

Pilot trait only

not that Corran would enjoy being PS 0 much more, but we're not only shotting him. Small mercy, I guess?

If you want to **** with your opponent, though, you can try to tempt him to not Kylo your Corran by reminding him that Direct Hit is the most repeated card in the deck

Bah!!

It just runs through my head every time I see Corran's name. "I must kill Corran Horn!" (Like Mara Jade was all "I must kill Luuke Skywalker")

What if I fix it?

run Blount with an Adv Homing Missile and hope.

Done it. Its hilarious

run Blount with an Adv Homing Missile and hope.

Done it. Its hilarious

Just add Deadeye. Best 21 points.

Bah!!

It just runs through my head every time I see Corran's name. "I must kill Corran Horn!" (Like Mara Jade was all "I must kill Luuke Skywalker")

What if I fix it?

he directly hits your mind

(at least I think that's what he's doing in game

Vader just straight up force chokes your ship, but Kylo does that thing he did to Poe

how does that damage your cockpit? Idk, why is a damaged cockpit a PILOT trait? that's probably a better question

unless "cockpit" is "your head" like you're one of those tiny aliens with human-mechs from Men In Black)

Bah!!

It just runs through my head every time I see Corran's name. "I must kill Corran Horn!" (Like Mara Jade was all "I must kill Luuke Skywalker")

What if I fix it?

he directly hits your mind

Mind blown!

Kylo probably damages your COCKpit which would basically damage your cockpit anyway when you are distracted as hell with horrid pains.

as said above, the rules are (surprisingly) incredibly clear cut

I don't begrudge or intend to belittle anyone who thought otherwise, though. Hell, I had to look this **** up because I also thought critical damage referred to "being dealt a face-up damage card"

we were wrong, and it's due to a very common association between CRITs and face-up damage cards. Nothing to worry about, we just have to dissociate the two things in order to play the game correctly

do note, however, that that's the extent of my certainty. I can't do anything but guess as to a few crucial things, some of which have come up in this thread (most pointedly, who is dealing the face-up card? Is it the ship that did the critical damage that triggered the condition? Is it the ship that kylo's on? It's technically the condition itself, but is that even a gameplay entity? )

but honestly, the biggest problem is FFG picked the worst goddamn name for the condition

"I Will Show You The Dark Side"...for real? Six goddamn words? How am I supposed to discuss this **** online without having that phrase permanently cntrl + Ced ?

which is why, if I ever say it's Kylo's effect that deals the face-up damage card, I don't mean the actual crew/pilot. The crew/pilot just deals out the condition, the condition does the rest.

Suck It Corran!

Pilot trait only

not that Corran would enjoy being PS 0 much more, but we're not only shotting him. Small mercy, I guess?

If you want to **** with your opponent, though, you can try to tempt him to not Kylo your Corran by reminding him that Direct Hit is the most repeated card in the deck

Not sure when it would actually matter, but referring to your point about getting your opponent to *not* Kylo your ship, the Kylo pilot skill seems to be mandatory, vs the Kylo crew which is an action.

But then on the condition card it says you "may" put a Pilot card here, and once that's done, you have no choice once the damage is unblocked you have to assign them the pilot face-up card.

Kylo probably damages your COCKpit which would basically damage your cockpit anyway when you are distracted as hell with horrid pains.

But he stopped doing that after it illicited some rather...unwanted reactions in his subordinates

but honestly, the biggest problem is FFG picked the worst goddamn name for the condition

"I Will Show You The Dark Side"...for real? Six goddamn words? How am I supposed to discuss this **** online without having that phrase permanently cntrl + Ced ?

I Will Show You The Dark Side -> IWSYTDS -> STD.

Half the time it's going to be the Blinded Pilot card anyway, so just call it Kylo Blinding.

I'm considering saying that it doesn't work like you all seem to think just so we can get another page worth of people explaining clearly and precisely exactly how it works.

But honestly, the fact that it has been laid out clearly as possible numerous times, and people still seem to think that's not how it works, makes me incredibly worried for when this thing starts hitting tables. Although it is totally unnecessary, I almost think FFG needs the condition to say something along the lines of "even if that ship has 1 or more shield tokens" to assure this confusion is cut out. I really don't want to field this card as currently worded at a tournament just to have a TO called over every other game and trust that the TO understands how it actually works as well.

****, I lost one of the most amazing posts I've ever made

**** **** ****

sorry, guys, this was going to be awesome but now I'm just bummed

...okay, keeping it simple

the trigger is "when you suffer critical damage during an attack"

STEP 1: what is "Critical Damage"?

source: https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/filer_public/40/b4/40b44d5f-7a06-406c-ae6e-183c5297e796/swx36_rulesreference.pdf

"Deal Damage:

If the defender was hit, it suffers one damage for each uncanceled [HIT] result and one critical damage for each uncanceled [CRIT] result. All damage must be suffered before any critical damage may be suffered." (page 5)"

"DAMAGE:

During the “Deal Damage” step of an attack, a ship suffers one damage for each uncanceled result and one critical damage for each uncanceled

result.

When a ship suffers a damage or critical damage, it loses one shield token. If it does not have any shield tokens to lose, it is dealt one Damage card instead.

For normal damage, the Damage card is dealt facedown; for critical damage, the Damage card is dealt faceup and the text on the card immediately

resolves." (page 9)

STEP 2: translation (Kylo Ren Goes Through Shields; not damage cancellation ala green dice)

CRITICAL DAMAGE IS STILL CRITICAL DAMAGE EVEN IF ALL IT DOES IS PLINK A SHIELD

shields DO NOT magically downgrade critical damage into normal damage

here's what "I'll Show You The Dark Side" (******* thing needs an acronym STAT) does

"When a ship suffers a damage or critical damage, it loses one shield token. If it does not have any shield tokens to lose, it is dealt one Damage card instead it is dealt the chosen face-up damage card."

STEP 3: what works and what doesn't?

stuff like Vader (crew) inflicts Critical Damage, but only AFTER an attack

Obstacles inflict Damage and Critical Damage, but they are not attacks (even if you t-beam crap onto them)

Advanced Homing Missiles, Proton Bombs and stuff like Wampa DO NOT inflict Critical Damage they deal face-up damage cards

basically, you just want CRIT rolls to go through enemy green dice. THAT'S IT

here's some good Kylo synergy:

he's good against high cost, high PS pilots and he's the monster Ms. Horn uses to scare her son when he's being bad

and no, Determination is still too crappy to warrant using as a counter

get it?

got it?

good

I'm off to weep for what I've lost

So hes kinda like a reactive crew Vader, or at least the Darkside power card is.

I'm considering saying that it doesn't work like you all seem to think just so we can get another page worth of people explaining clearly and precisely exactly how it works.

But honestly, the fact that it has been laid out clearly as possible numerous times, and people still seem to think that's not how it works, makes me incredibly worried for when this thing starts hitting tables. Although it is totally unnecessary, I almost think FFG needs the condition to say something along the lines of "even if that ship has 1 or more shield tokens" to assure this confusion is cut out. I really don't want to field this card as currently worded at a tournament just to have a TO called over every other game and trust that the TO understands how it actually works as well.

Don't worry, it'll be in the FAQ.

They have quite a few bits in the FAQ that are redundant-if-you-read-the-rules; this will be no different. "If a ship with the IWSYTDS recieves an uncancelled critical hit but still has shields, they take the damage card instead." or something to that effect.

Really, my single complaint with this whole setup is that they gave it such a ridiculously long name.

I'm considering saying that it doesn't work like you all seem to think just so we can get another page worth of people explaining clearly and precisely exactly how it works.

But honestly, the fact that it has been laid out clearly as possible numerous times, and people still seem to think that's not how it works, makes me incredibly worried for when this thing starts hitting tables. Although it is totally unnecessary, I almost think FFG needs the condition to say something along the lines of "even if that ship has 1 or more shield tokens" to assure this confusion is cut out. I really don't want to field this card as currently worded at a tournament just to have a TO called over every other game and trust that the TO understands how it actually works as well.

Don't worry, it'll be in the FAQ.

They have quite a few bits in the FAQ that are redundant-if-you-read-the-rules; this will be no different. "If a ship with the IWSYTDS recieves an uncancelled critical hit but still has shields, they take the damage card instead." or something to that effect.

Really, my single complaint with this whole setup is that they gave it such a ridiculously long name.

I think many of us have that complaint. It's silly. We just need to call it Dark Side from now on.

I'm considering saying that it doesn't work like you all seem to think just so we can get another page worth of people explaining clearly and precisely exactly how it works.

But honestly, the fact that it has been laid out clearly as possible numerous times, and people still seem to think that's not how it works, makes me incredibly worried for when this thing starts hitting tables. Although it is totally unnecessary, I almost think FFG needs the condition to say something along the lines of "even if that ship has 1 or more shield tokens" to assure this confusion is cut out. I really don't want to field this card as currently worded at a tournament just to have a TO called over every other game and trust that the TO understands how it actually works as well.

Don't worry, it'll be in the FAQ.

They have quite a few bits in the FAQ that are redundant-if-you-read-the-rules; this will be no different. "If a ship with the IWSYTDS recieves an uncancelled critical hit but still has shields, they take the damage card instead." or something to that effect.

Really, my single complaint with this whole setup is that they gave it such a ridiculously long name.

I think many of us have that complaint. It's silly. We just need to call it Dark Side from now on.

Can we at least call it "Something Something Dark Side?" Maybe SSDS for short?

I'm considering saying that it doesn't work like you all seem to think just so we can get another page worth of people explaining clearly and precisely exactly how it works.

But honestly, the fact that it has been laid out clearly as possible numerous times, and people still seem to think that's not how it works, makes me incredibly worried for when this thing starts hitting tables. Although it is totally unnecessary, I almost think FFG needs the condition to say something along the lines of "even if that ship has 1 or more shield tokens" to assure this confusion is cut out. I really don't want to field this card as currently worded at a tournament just to have a TO called over every other game and trust that the TO understands how it actually works as well.

Don't worry, it'll be in the FAQ.

They have quite a few bits in the FAQ that are redundant-if-you-read-the-rules; this will be no different. "If a ship with the IWSYTDS recieves an uncancelled critical hit but still has shields, they take the damage card instead." or something to that effect.

Really, my single complaint with this whole setup is that they gave it such a ridiculously long name.

I think many of us have that complaint. It's silly. We just need to call it Dark Side from now on.

Can we at least call it "Something Something Dark Side?" Maybe SSDS for short?

A Ship Self-Defense System? That could work.

After serious consideration, I concur in that the wording seems intentional on simply suffering a [critical] dice result, regardless of presence/absence of shield tokens.

Otherwise, FFG would have used the same trigger as Bobba Fett -crew-: 'Being dealt a face up card'... Which would have been the most simple way of doing it.

After serious consideration, I concur in that the wording seems intentional on simply suffering a [critical] dice result, regardless of presence/absence of shield tokens.

Otherwise, FFG would have used the same trigger as Bobba Fett -crew-: 'Being dealt a face up card'... Which would have been the most simple way of doing it.

Consistency from FFG? Certainly not!

I think people are seeing ghosts where there is nothing.

Always, to be able to "suffer a critical damage" you must receive an unevaded critical damage against the hull. That´s all, no more complications.

For example Vader crew makes a critical damage and has never ignored shields.

Seriosuly, if I play against someone in a tournament, I have a enough shields and he makes me a critical and tries to apply the Kylo Ren crew bypassing the shields, I will think he is trolling me.

uh...

see you have the definition of critical damage right, but you're ignoring what the condition does

again

"When you suffer critical damage during an attack, you are instead dealt the chosen faceup Damage card"

in short,

Critical damage does not have to go through shields to be considered critical damage

When critical damage is dealt, I Will Show You The Dark Side deals a face-up damage card INSTEAD

INSTEAD of losing a shield, you are dealt the chosen face-up damage card

example: "Backdraft" shoots at Corran Horn

without Kylo

1. Backdraft scores two hits and a crit
2. Corran Horn uses evade results to cancel the two hits
3. Corran Horn takes an uncanceled critical result and suffers 1 critical damage
4. Corran Horn loses a shield or, if he has no shields, is dealt a damage card face-up

with Kylo

1. Backdraft scores two hits and a crit
2. Corran Horn uses evade results to cancel the two hits
3. Corran Horn takes an uncanceled critical result and suffers 1 critical damage
4. Corran Horn loses a shield or, if he has no shields, is dealt a damage card face-up
5. INSTEAD, Corran Horn is dealt the chosen face-up damage card

Why does this go through shields? Because it's effectively a mental attack. Vader was able to remove a crewmember through an entire ISD's worth of shields just by using Skype.

I think people are seeing ghosts where there is nothing.

Always, to be able to "suffer a critical damage" you must receive an unevaded critical damage against the hull. That´s all, no more complications.

For example Vader crew makes a critical damage and has never ignored shields.

Seriosuly, if I play against someone in a tournament, I have a enough shields and he makes me a critical and tries to apply the Kylo Ren crew bypassing the shields, I will think he is trolling me.

uh...

see you have the definition of critical damage right, but you're ignoring what the condition does

again

"When you suffer critical damage during an attack, you are instead dealt the chosen faceup Damage card"

in short,

Critical damage does not have to go through shields to be considered critical damage

When critical damage is dealt, I Will Show You The Dark Side deals a face-up damage card INSTEAD

INSTEAD of losing a shield, you are dealt the chosen face-up damage card

example: "Backdraft" shoots at Corran Horn

without Kylo

• Backdraft scores two hits and a crit
• Corran Horn uses evade results to cancel the two hits
• Corran Horn takes an uncanceled critical result and suffers 1 critical damage
• Corran Horn loses a shield or, if he has no shields, is dealt a damage card face-up

with Kylo

• Backdraft scores two hits and a crit
• Corran Horn uses evade results to cancel the two hits
• Corran Horn takes an uncanceled critical result and suffers 1 critical damage
• Corran Horn loses a shield or, if he has no shields, is dealt a damage card face-up
• INSTEAD, Corran Horn is dealt the chosen face-up damage card

Why does this go through shields? Because it's effectively a mental attack. Vader was able to remove a crewmember through an entire ISD's worth of shields just by using Skype.

Space Skype!

Another of these "No, I can't believe it does THAT" nightmare to explain cards.

Myar

But honestly, I prefer this to bossk and r7-t1

Kylo Ren (vis-a-vis his trigger not so much other weird interactions) is worded PERFECTLY with the clearly defined base rules, as was Omega Leader despite initial confusion

In this case, he's just bringing up an age old misappropriation of the term "critical damage" which persisted despite the fact that Vader (crew) deals critical damage, has never bypassed shields and has existed since wave 3

R7-t1 and Bossk crew are worse because the actual English of their abilities are really painfully confusingly arranged

Oh you have no idea - the FAQ for Crackshot directly opposes what the German card actually says. Thats the real nightmare right there!

the FAQ for crackshot in english isnt exactly the same either.

The card itself leads us to believe that if your opponent rolls all blanks/focus, you cant do anything. Because dice modding happens before your opponent, which is when crack would go off.

Except the FAQ says "nope do it at the compare results phase" which infinitely skyrockets its power, because now it can even cancel evade tokens.

the FAQ for crackshot in english isnt exactly the same either.

The card itself leads us to believe that if your opponent rolls all blanks/focus, you cant do anything. Because dice modding happens before your opponent, which is when crack would go off.

Except the FAQ says "nope do it at the compare results phase" which infinitely skyrockets its power, because now it can even cancel evade tokens.

If if makes you feel better, canceling results isn't a kind of dice modification, so there's no a priori reason to assume that they should have happened during Modify Dice either.

Hmm, I'm not sure of the mechanic here.

Can we go through it, in precise and minute detail one more time.

With particular interest at what we think the designers intent was. And then can we discuss what it says in all the translations?

And then can have multiple pages about how this either is or isn't a T-65 fix?

Kthxbai.

Hmm, I'm not sure of the mechanic here.

Can we go through it, in precise and minute detail one more time.

With particular interest at what we think the designers intent was. And then can we discuss what it says in all the translations?

And then can have multiple pages about how this either is or isn't a T-65 fix?

Kthxbai.

Sure, but not before we take a look at the REAL elephant in the room : how does SomethingSomething Dark Side react to Xizor's ability