precision hyperspace superior for both players objective

Man congrats norm he blew the this tourny!

Also thanks gink for the play by play.

Man congrats norm he blew the this tourny!

Also thanks gink for the play by play.

Wasn't ginkapo lol

Thanks mythics, was interesting to see two ship builds dominating. Who would have thought it.

Sorry mythics! Lol

I've seen plenty of 2 ship fleets in tournaments.

Though ISD/Demo is not common.

How is this not common? It's basically the standard cut Fireball. I've seen this as early as last year, pre-winter Vassal tournament, played by I think JJ?

Its either ISD-II + Demo with big bid or ISD-II with 2x Raiders with 400. That's what the Fireball is.

I think the two ship builds fell out of favor some on the forums after clon wrecked mine in the finals.

Thank you for stepping up and running this.

Congrats Norm!

What should we call these builds?

Rhymer-Demo-ISD

"Triple Threat"

"Two Siths"

"Double Trouble"

"Imperial Trinity" - I think I like this best... as it's the 3 best things for the empire right now.

I've seen plenty of 2 ship fleets in tournaments.

Though ISD/Demo is not common.

How is this not common? It's basically the standard cut Fireball. I've seen this as early as last year, pre-winter Vassal tournament, played by I think JJ?

Its either ISD-II + Demo with big bid or ISD-II with 2x Raiders with 400. That's what the Fireball is.

I think the two ship builds fell out of favor some on the forums after clon wrecked mine in the finals.

Possible, what tournies I have attended in the UK, Motti and Dual ISD + Rhymerball, or Motti triple vic+ Rhymer is still very very common, at least two of the 16 man tournaments I played in had 7 Mottis(in each one), and only me with something different. (Screed/Vader).

I guess on Vassal it is almost none existent? I think Sato is going to be deterrent enough to say farewell to no squadron builds (once it is released)

And yes, thank you Mythic for the commentary, much appreciated.

Thanks for the play by play..

I'm curious...are sqns less or more common on Vassal. I am wondering since it is so accurate there will be less "mistakes".

I think Sato is going to be deterrent enough to say farewell to no squadron builds (once it is released)

We'll see about that

At 32 points I doubt it. Sato would force you to keep a fighters back and also it would be really weak to an extreme against an alpha strike fighter build as your fighters would be tied up giving bonus and an intel ship can allow strikes assuming rhymer isn't permitting it from a distance already.

Mythics, thanks for taking play by play duties. Since it ended identically, here are the final standings for GenCon 2016 at the end of Finals round 2.

I've seen plenty of 2 ship fleets in tournaments.

Though ISD/Demo is not common.

How is this not common? It's basically the standard cut Fireball. I've seen this as early as last year, pre-winter Vassal tournament, played by I think JJ?

Its either ISD-II + Demo with big bid or ISD-II with 2x Raiders with 400. That's what the Fireball is.

I think the two ship builds fell out of favor some on the forums after clon wrecked mine in the finals.

Ah yes. Defeated in one tourney means it automatically falls out of favor by the likes of the internet.

Doesn't matter now, we're so close to Wave 4 that the Demolisher will undergo a series of tests against the new meta. Will control be enough? We shall see.

UPDATE:

First, let's breakdown the lists in points form right now.

Norm Weir's list

Author: HERO

Faction: Galactic Empire

Points: 390/400

Commander: Admiral Ozzel

Assault Objective: Precision Strike

Defense Objective: Unknown

Navigation Objective: Unknown

[ flagship ] Imperial II-Class Star Destroyer (120 points)

- Admiral Ozzel ( 20 points)

- Relentless ( 3 points)

- Wulff Yularen ( 7 points)

- Gunnery Team ( 7 points)

- Boosted Comms ( 4 points)

- Electronic Countermeasures ( 7 points)

= 168 total ship cost

Gladiator I-Class Star Destroyer (56 points)

- Demolisher ( 10 points)

- Admiral Montferrat ( 5 points)

- Ordnance Experts ( 4 points)

- Engine Techs ( 8 points)

- Assault Proton Torpedoes ( 5 points)

= 88 total ship cost

1 Boba Fett ( 26 points)

1 Darth Vader ( 21 points)

1 Dengar ( 20 points)

1 Soontir Fel ( 18 points)

1 Firespray-31 ( 18 points)

1 Major Rhymer ( 16 points)

1 "Mauler" Mithel ( 15 points)

Dong Lee 's list

Author: HERO

Faction: Galactic Empire

Points: 386/400

Commander: Admiral Motti

Assault Objective: Unknown

Defense Objective: Unknown

Navigation Objective: Unknown

[ flagship ] Imperial II-Class Star Destroyer (120 points)

- Admiral Motti ( 24 points)

- Avenger ( 5 points)

- Captain Needa ( 2 points)

- Boosted Comms ( 4 points)

- Electronic Countermeasures ( 7 points)

- Turbolaser Reroute Circuits ( 7 points)

= 169 total ship cost

Gladiator I-Class Star Destroyer (56 points)

- Demolisher ( 10 points)

- Admiral Montferrat ( 5 points)

- Ordnance Experts ( 4 points)

- Engine Techs ( 8 points)

- Assault Proton Torpedoes ( 5 points)

= 88 total ship cost

1 Dengar ( 20 points)

2 Firespray-31s ( 36 points)

1 Major Rhymer ( 16 points)

1 "Mauler" Mithel ( 15 points)

2 TIE Advanced Squadrons ( 24 points)

2 TIE Bomber Squadrons ( 18 points)

TDLR: Near identical Imperial 2-ship lists with ISD carrier, Demolisher and Imperial Aces. Both high-bids.

Writing about it right now.

TDLR: Near identical Imperial 2-ship lists with ISD carrier, Demolisher and Imperial Aces. Both high-bids.

Writing about it right now.

The both had Precision Strike, Hyperspace Assault, and Superior Positions

Thanks for the play by play..

I'm curious...are sqns less or more common on Vassal. I am wondering since it is so accurate there will be less "mistakes".

I can't really say.

What I can say, is that I can play very light, nimble lists with few squadrons on vassal, just because it's somewhat easier to anticipate arcs/ranges and how far squadrons can move and shoot.

I could probably do it on the table as well, but I'd have a nervous breakdown at least once per game

http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2016/08/armada-gencon-2016-finals-lists.html

My review on the bottom:

Since both lists are running identical cookie-cutter Demolisher builds, I want to talk about commander choices and Imperial Ace layouts more in-depth. However, before I begin on that jazz, a quick word to why these players chose APT instead of something like Expanded Launchers. Also, why Admiral Montferrat instead of Intel Officer or whatnot. When it comes to applying damage, one of the surest ways to apply damage is by effects. That's what APT aims to do and that's to apply sure direct crit damage to hull, past shields and other countermeasures to stop it. Firepower through traditional means is always subject to the will of the defendent unless you're forcing them to discard through Intel Officer. Since both players are not running Intel Officer because they're looking for a gap-closing flanker, APT is the stronger choice in my opinion. I've always liked APT in combination with Ordnance Experts, and I definitely like guaranteed damage over IO/EL especially when your bid and damage is spread-out elsewhere in the list. This isn't a triple-tap list, this is a squadron-heavy list with the ISD fulfilling that role.

Alright, so commander choices: Ozzel is used as a push-to-talk key in this instance in the first list. You want to get the Nav/Squadron command early and then keep it there with Wulff Yularen. He basically means that you'll only really need to cast it once to keep the speed change game on the rest of the game on the ISD, while the Relentless title allows him to better gauge and react to battlefield conditions. This means that in the event that there are no more threatening squadrons, he can then concentrate on doing damage or repairing key components. No additional damage from his ISD in the form of turbolaser upgrades, but Gunnery Teams is there to spray dice into forward targets because the ISD is a carrier first, damage-dealer second. It's important to know that in both of these lists, the damage is spread out pretty respectably in three key components: The Demolisher flanker or short-carrier in the early phases of the game, the ISD-II's reds and blues and the squadron activation, and the crapton of Imperial Aces that can deal heavy damage from medium range. Motti, from the second list is more straight forward: More hull is always good, but more importantly, a safer choice.

Now, let's look at squadron composition. Both lists are Imperial Aces but with different components. The same components to note between the first and second list are as follows: Dengar, Rhymer, Firesprays and Mauler Mithel. The first three should be pretty self-explanatory for every Imperial player now, but just in case you don't, read this article first. I want to talk about why Mithel is in both of these lists that ended up on the Final tables and why he's always been this sleeper element in most Imperial lists. First, you have Dengar and his outrageous durability on a Intel body. He moves well, dislodges units whenever you want, and allows Mithel to jump around for millimeters worth of range but still do massive AoE damage before even having to roll. Simply put: If you have a lot of squadrons, and he has a lot of squadrons, but he has Mithel, you will lose. Thanks to Intel, Mithel is just outrageous for his points because he can inflict massive damage for dirt cheap. As you've probably also noticed, Vader and TIE Advanced are there for the Escort to make sure key pieces like Dengar and Mithel stay alive. While the Firesprays and even TIE Bombers are a thing of personal taste, it's clear that the first list is catered more towards anti-squadron auto-damage in the form of Boba, Fel, and Mithel. If you want to deal damage to the squadrons, you have to get past several layers of auto-damage before you're successful. It goes without saying that the second list, is definitely focused more on the bomber aspect.

Also, why Admiral Montferrat instead of Intel Officer or whatnot.

Because when you fly wide and into long Range arc of a TRC90 they can't shoot at you. You can also go second and survive better and it makes the 1 rear shield/evade after the zoom and boom fly way more potent. Survivability in a two activation list is better than not. I still find this to be the case in my VSD/GSD/R Fireball.

I didn't ask that in form of a question, but now re-reading it I think I can write it a bit better.

Man congrats norm he blew the this tourny!

Also thanks gink for the play by play.

Wasn't ginkapo lol

I had a double take when I first read the thread too

"hey wait! I don't remember making all these posts!"

I've seen plenty of 2 ship fleets in tournaments.

Though ISD/Demo is not common.

How is this not common? It's basically the standard cut Fireball. I've seen this as early as last year, pre-winter Vassal tournament, played by I think JJ?

Its either ISD-II + Demo with big bid or ISD-II with 2x Raiders with 400. That's what the Fireball is.

I think the two ship builds fell out of favor some on the forums after clon wrecked mine in the finals.

Ah yes. Defeated in one tourney means it automatically falls out of favor by the likes of the internet.

Doesn't matter now, we're so close to Wave 4 that the Demolisher will undergo a series of tests against the new meta. Will control be enough? We shall see.

I can't tell if thats a remark chiding the fickle nature of the internet or my hypothesis that clons victory cut into the popularity of two ship fleets. In case it was my point, you should be aware that there was a cavalcade of threads regarding clons list, demo, and the necessity of activation advantage which flooded the forum afterwords. It wasn't that a 2 ship list lost a game, it was the danger posed by last-first demo/mc30 activations and the difficulty in avoiding them as a two ship fleet.

I would love to see the games norm and dong played, because maintaining that margin is freaking impressive.

I've seen plenty of 2 ship fleets in tournaments.

Though ISD/Demo is not common.

How is this not common? It's basically the standard cut Fireball. I've seen this as early as last year, pre-winter Vassal tournament, played by I think JJ?

Its either ISD-II + Demo with big bid or ISD-II with 2x Raiders with 400. That's what the Fireball is.

I think the two ship builds fell out of favor some on the forums after clon wrecked mine in the finals.

Ah yes. Defeated in one tourney means it automatically falls out of favor by the likes of the internet.

Doesn't matter now, we're so close to Wave 4 that the Demolisher will undergo a series of tests against the new meta. Will control be enough? We shall see.

I can't tell if thats a remark chiding the fickle nature of the internet or my hypothesis that clons victory cut into the popularity of two ship fleets. In case it was my point, you should be aware that there was a cavalcade of threads regarding clons list, demo, and the necessity of activation advantage which flooded the forum afterwords. It wasn't that a 2 ship list lost a game, it was the danger posed by last-first demo/mc30 activations and the difficulty in avoiding them as a two ship fleet.

I would love to see the games norm and dong played, because maintaining that margin is freaking impressive.

I would like to see the games they played against ultra bid DeMSU more.