to be a true evil twin you need to have a goatee otherwise you are just a wanna-bee

nobody complains about scum having z's, y's, hwk's, or firesprays.

Yet people lose their minds over a tie to rebels.

geez quit whining about this. If Sabine's Tie never existed and they some how got a tie for xwing, yeah then wtf reactions would be justified. Its something thats in rebels, which is very popular show, meaning it WILL HAPPEN for xwing assuming it doesnt break the scale.

None of those were exclusively rebel ships though if they'd given scum x-wing's, b-wings or a-wing's then you'd hear the exact same reaction.

nobody complains about scum having z's, y's, hwk's, or firesprays.

Yet people lose their minds over a tie to rebels.

geez quit whining about this. If Sabine's Tie never existed and they some how got a tie for xwing, yeah then wtf reactions would be justified. Its something thats in rebels, which is very popular show, meaning it WILL HAPPEN for xwing assuming it doesnt break the scale.

None of those were exclusively rebel ships though if they'd given scum x-wing's, b-wings or a-wing's then you'd hear the exact same reaction.

But the rebels taking the tie is canon.... in theory the rebels have stolen almost every ship in the empire (if you go by the old EU) so if you want to cry wait till hann and luke turn up in a shuttle or wedge in a defender

DARE YOU DENNY THE CUTE?!?!?!

Right because a lone unique tie or tiny squad of 4 is game breaking. Stolen ties were a thing even in the old LEGENDS stuff.

nobody complains about scum having z's, y's, hwk's, or firesprays.

Yet people lose their minds over a tie to rebels.

I kind of get why people are complaining though. TIEs are strictly an Imperial ship. They are the staple and the standard. They help differentiate the factions because they are iconically Imperial. All other TIEs adhere to the design space established by these TIEs. We grew up watching the OT and the thought of the Rebels doing anything with a TIE but blowing it up is mind bending. It's simply not SW to some.

Not all of us watch Rebels. Some of us think it's total dross. Some of us see a brightly coloured TIE fighter in the Rebel's hands and it grates against our personal SW canon . It's simply not SW to some.

Yes, there are times when the opposite faction has cause to fly a ship, Han in Shuttle Tyderium, Poe and Finn in a TIE, Ewok on a speeder, etc. but to have it available in your squad .. with multiple pilots .. It's simply not SW to some.

That is why some of us struggle.

I'm not supporting nor poo-pooing the expansion .. I'm just trying to help rationalise the feelings of our comrades here on these boards.

Yeah, this is where I stand, more or less. It just feels like identity theft is all. But I've survived all the falling skies so far, and I just can't get that worked up about something like this anymore. Though I do know one thing will happen for sure: there will be a section of players who never really flew Imperials (either ones who never touched them or who have only dabbled slightly and then gone on to something else) who have witnessed the marvelously lucky evasions of their opponents, who will fly their mighty stolen TIE into battle with full tokens only to be one-shotted anyway, and then they'll suddenly balk at the fragility of the ship, completely forgetting all the times they've been on the giving end of such chicanery. "What nonsense is this," they'll proclaim loudly. "Why doth my fighter evaporate?".

Well, because it's a **** TIE Fighter, for one.

It happened with Defenders, and it will happen with this too. And that is something I look forward to.

nobody complains about scum having z's, y's, hwk's, or firesprays.

Yet people lose their minds over a tie to rebels.

I kind of get why people are complaining though. TIEs are strictly an Imperial ship. They are the staple and the standard. They help differentiate the factions because they are iconically Imperial. All other TIEs adhere to the design space established by these TIEs. We grew up watching the OT and the thought of the Rebels doing anything with a TIE but blowing it up is mind bending. It's simply not SW to some.

Not all of us watch Rebels. Some of us think it's total dross. Some of us see a brightly coloured TIE fighter in the Rebel's hands and it grates against our personal SW canon . It's simply not SW to some.

Yes, there are times when the opposite faction has cause to fly a ship, Han in Shuttle Tyderium, Poe and Finn in a TIE, Ewok on a speeder, etc. but to have it available in your squad .. with multiple pilots .. It's simply not SW to some.

That is why some of us struggle.

I'm not supporting nor poo-pooing the expansion .. I'm just trying to help rationalise the feelings of our comrades here on these boards.

Get with the program ole fellers... This is one special TIE and that is that... no big deal, and it is right out of one of the most popular IN CANNON Shows... it is awesome sauce!

I've watched all of the clone wars, and mid way of season 2 of rebels.

While I did enjoy both shows once I got past the kiddieness, I'm not overly excited about the tie.

It's still just a tie fighter. I feel that with this inclusion they are scratching the bottom of the barrel for rebels.

One thing I've not liked is how star wars seems to be aimed at a much younger audience while it's the older generation that has fallen in love with it, and grown up with it. I still cringe at some of the lines and cliché of the clone wars. Some of it was pretty bad. Like something you would watch during Saturday morning cartoons.

In the end it's about marketing and selling toys to kids, but even so if star wars went the way of game of thrones I believe it would still be widely popular, but then they probably couldn't sell toys to 8 year olds. Some of us (like myself) do collect figures of the higher quality (vintage hot toy, and other lines like the bandia samurai line for example)

Anyway other than what upgrade cards it comes with personally I'm not overly excited about the tie.

You and others may like it, but others do not. Their opinion is as equal to those who like it.

Though I'll agree it's a pretty stupid reason to get out of this game.

In the end it's a two attacks dice ship and I'm beginning to feel 2 attack primary are worse off than before.

More ships are able to have 4 dice attacks. Ghost, phantoms, and soon Kylo ship. Plus ordnance is being used more and more, so thats more 4 red dice, plus hlc aggressors etc

Rebels have enough two attack dice ships with awings, z95, and now tie fighter, it's getting harder to get through the token up high agility, auto thrusters ships, or it takes a long time to get through the large amount of HP 0-2 evade dice of decimator, ghost, to falcons and U-boats.

I'm sure there is something ffg is holding back as there is that mystery que in between waves nobody knows what it is yet, but wave 10 only has me excited for imperials

If you want balance without flavor, play checkers. Red is OP though.

I personally like the idea of crossing ships between factions. Not the first time it's been done, looking at Scum, and as has been mentioned, there have been lots of cases in classic EU of rebels stealing TIE fighters and other imperial paraphernalia.

The funny thing, to me, is this: we've only seen one person pilot a TIE/sf on-screen. And he is not yet a pilot for that ship! We will soon have his co-pilot, as a crew card, and the TIE/sf can't take a crew member.

What?

If you want balance without flavor, play checkers. Red is OP though.

I personally like the idea of crossing ships between factions. Not the first time it's been done, looking at Scum, and as has been mentioned, there have been lots of cases in classic EU of rebels stealing TIE fighters and other imperial paraphernalia.

The funny thing, to me, is this: we've only seen one person pilot a TIE/sf on-screen. And he is not yet a pilot for that ship! We will soon have his co-pilot, as a crew card, and the TIE/sf can't take a crew member.

What?

If you want balance without flavor, play checkers. Red is OP though.

I personally like the idea of crossing ships between factions. Not the first time it's been done, looking at Scum, and as has been mentioned, there have been lots of cases in classic EU of rebels stealing TIE fighters and other imperial paraphernalia.

The funny thing, to me, is this: we've only seen one person pilot a TIE/sf on-screen. And he is not yet a pilot for that ship! We will soon have his co-pilot, as a crew card, and the TIE/sf can't take a crew member.

What?

We have discussed this at LENGTH on 5 threads now over the past months, since we even saw the TIE/SF first, and most of us kept saying the following- no crew, just an aillary arc or turret arc.

If you need the reasoning behind why it SHOULD NOT have had a crew member slot (and rightfully doesnt) here:

Look at the Y-wing, you can have either the 1-seat variant (the BTL-A) where the turret is no longer 360 and has to fire forward since the pilot fires it. Or you can have the turret fire in any direction becase there is a dedicated gunner back there.

Then you have the Arc-170 where there is a pilot, a co-plot, and a rear gunner (the copilot represents the crew member , while the gunner and pilot fire the guns).

And lastly you have the Kwing- where there are 2 turret gunners, a co-pilot/bombardier and pilot....yet you have 1 crew member on it, and 360 turret.

So theTie/SF does not have a crew slot, sicne the guy in the back only does one thing, one- use the guns, because he is a gunner!!!

As for Poe ever getting a TIE/SF i highly doubt it, because he barely was in it, and got shot own pretty quick. Plus we'd have then only 1 actual pilot for the ship for the Resistance. what would the rest of the expansion have in it? If the rest were more Frst Order pilots, I could see this happening, but FFG hasnt sold two factions worth of pilots in anything other than the starters, and I doubt they'll start now.

Rebels are the only faction with astromechs, scum was illicit and salvaged astromech. Imperials have: no turrets, no astromechs, and they lost the cloak in wave eight. The only thing that was strictly Imperial was TIEs, and they were so committed to ties only that good Imperial options like the Gunboat get overlooked. Now theyre so tie focused that even the rebels get them?

a rebel tie? I was thinking about starting not now , tells me all i need to too about your ability or willingness to balance the game.

Of all the reasons to be mad, "game balance" isn't one of them.

I've been thinking of dumping my models from both games for a while.

Are you dumping them in the incinerator?

Sorry, lame but I couldn't resist.

[....]

As for Poe ever getting a TIE/SF i highly doubt it, because he barely was in it, and got shot own pretty quick. Plus we'd have then only 1 actual pilot for the ship for the Resistance. what would the rest of the expansion have in it? If the rest were more Frst Order pilots, I could see this happening, but FFG hasnt sold two factions worth of pilots in anything other than the starters, and I doubt they'll start now.

Why would you think the TIE S/F won't have a Rebel variant? Neither Sabine's masterpiece nor Poe's TIE S/F lasted very long. Sabine's TIE had more screen time that Poe's TIE, it still didn't make it to the end of the episode. In the case of Sabine's TIE L/N now we have multiple pilots so we should be able to field four rebellion TIE L/Ns.

If this is FFG's direction I would expect a Rebel Lambda with Han and Chewie as pilot, TIE S/F as Poe, Finn, Rey and someone else as pilots and more likely more to come.

nobody complains about scum having z's, y's, hwk's, or firesprays.

Yet people lose their minds over a tie to rebels.

It makes sense for Rebels and Scum to have Zs, Ys, HWKs and Firesprays as these are all common to the open market (whereas TIE fighters are not open market at all). It would also make sense for Imperials, Rebels and Scum to have CR90s and Gozantis as again, these were common to the open market.

A closer analogy would be an Imperial X-wing.

I'm just happy to see we live in world where we need to have a (friendly) argument if it is proper to include a plastic spaceship in the game or not.

nobody complains about scum having z's, y's, hwk's, or firesprays.

Yet people lose their minds over a tie to rebels.

It makes sense for Rebels and Scum to have Zs, Ys, HWKs and Firesprays as these are all common to the open market (whereas TIE fighters are not open market at all). It would also make sense for Imperials, Rebels and Scum to have CR90s and Gozantis as again, these were common to the open market.

A closer analogy would be an Imperial X-wing.

I makes perfect sense for there to be an Imperial X-Wing. They had them first. Something we know is that ships being built in limited quantities in cannon, or hard to maintain, etc. has no bearing on being able to field them in this game.

Sine the Empire had X-Wings before the design team defected and some prototypes were stolen, there may have been a few others around somewhere. It only takes 4 of them to exist for there to be 4 Imperial X-Wings in every 100 point game.

Actually if you look at the new upcoming release only one TIE L/N was stolen and repainted but we can field at least four of them. So really the Empire only needed a single X-Wing ever to be able to field a full 100 point squad.

[....]

As for Poe ever getting a TIE/SF i highly doubt it, because he barely was in it, and got shot own pretty quick. Plus we'd have then only 1 actual pilot for the ship for the Resistance. what would the rest of the expansion have in it? If the rest were more Frst Order pilots, I could see this happening, but FFG hasnt sold two factions worth of pilots in anything other than the starters, and I doubt they'll start now.

Why would you think the TIE S/F won't have a Rebel variant? Neither Sabine's masterpiece nor Poe's TIE S/F lasted very long. Sabine's TIE had more screen time that Poe's TIE, it still didn't make it to the end of the episode. In the case of Sabine's TIE L/N now we have multiple pilots so we should be able to field four rebellion TIE L/Ns.

If this is FFG's direction I would expect a Rebel Lambda with Han and Chewie as pilot, TIE S/F as Poe, Finn, Rey and someone else as pilots and more likely more to come.

Sabine's TIE was in at least 2 episodes...the one where they stole it originally (Zeb flew it with Era then) andthen later on where she had painted it up.

So we've had 2 people fly it, and then its not far off that they could steal others that Re may try flying. Ashoka, well that was a surprise, I was hoping she'd be in a crew spot not a pilot (though she does fly an A-wing briefly).

i was also hoping one day for more pilots of the Ghost and Attack Shuttle- since we have several people of the show that fly each of them more than others that arent actually flying th other 9though I guess they just picked 4 pilots for each and decided no more, just use crew.

Do you really honestly think we'll get the SF for just Poe? we arely have any pilots for the SF yet already, but the TIE which has been around since the launch of the game we have tons of pilots. And the regular TIE is much more common and likely to be stolen than the SF.

Will FFG make a Rebel Lambda, I doubt it, since Rebels already have a cannon-based large ship (the YT-2400). So mechancally it isnt that much different, well other than some maneuvering.

Sabine's Tie on the other hand does offer some different options for Rebels- mainly some more use of the Illicit slt, since Rebels/Resistance are getting it in theResistance bxo on YT-s . Not to mention it is rather different from a Imp tie if you only get one and take the illicit and crew slot title.

The SF for Poe, wold be rather un-inspiring, sure it has an auxillary arc, but it doesnt have a TIE dial, it has a strange Xwing dial on a ship that is pretending to be a TIE. Now if the dial on the thing was like the FO, which it should have had, then sure, I'd be thrilled to see it...but as is, its rather boring from a Rebel/Resistance perspective.

If you want balance without flavor, play checkers. Red is OP though.

I personally like the idea of crossing ships between factions. Not the first time it's been done, looking at Scum, and as has been mentioned, there have been lots of cases in classic EU of rebels stealing TIE fighters and other imperial paraphernalia.

The funny thing, to me, is this: we've only seen one person pilot a TIE/sf on-screen. And he is not yet a pilot for that ship! We will soon have his co-pilot, as a crew card, and the TIE/sf can't take a crew member.

What?

For the 1000th time it makes perfect sense to not have a crew slot on the TIE/SF!!!!!!!

We have discussed this at LENGTH on 5 threads now over the past months, since we even saw the TIE/SF first, and most of us kept saying the following- no crew, just an aillary arc or turret arc.

If you need the reasoning behind why it SHOULD NOT have had a crew member slot (and rightfully doesnt) here:

Look at the Y-wing, you can have either the 1-seat variant (the BTL-A) where the turret is no longer 360 and has to fire forward since the pilot fires it. Or you can have the turret fire in any direction becase there is a dedicated gunner back there.

Then you have the Arc-170 where there is a pilot, a co-plot, and a rear gunner (the copilot represents the crew member , while the gunner and pilot fire the guns).

And lastly you have the Kwing- where there are 2 turret gunners, a co-pilot/bombardier and pilot....yet you have 1 crew member on it, and 360 turret.

So theTie/SF does not have a crew slot, sicne the guy in the back only does one thing, one- use the guns, because he is a gunner!!!

As for Poe ever getting a TIE/SF i highly doubt it, because he barely was in it, and got shot own pretty quick. Plus we'd have then only 1 actual pilot for the ship for the Resistance. what would the rest of the expansion have in it? If the rest were more Frst Order pilots, I Because life is not made only of photos, I'm going to get into the game. The game is called "shake" the Facebook. Let's see if it works. The idea is to see who reads a post when there isn't a picture. So, if you are reading this message, make a comment using a single word about how we met. Just one word, please. Next, copy this message on your wall so I can also leave a word. Just hold your finger on this text. Touch the word copy. Go to your page & hold your finger where you write. Then click on "paste" when it shows up. Please play!!! see this happening, but FFG hasnt sold two factions worth of pilots in anything other than the starters, and I doubt they'll start now.

I don't care how many times or where you've discussed this.

At all.

I think the Y-wing should have a crew slot option. As should the TIE/sf. If design considerations broke the ability to stay more true to the source material, then the design is wrong. FFG did it wrong. That's my opinion.

Discuss it some more. Five more threads, five more years. I don't care, and I don't agree with you.

I don't care how many times or where you've discussed this.

At all.

I think the Y-wing should have a crew slot option. As should the TIE/sf. If design considerations broke the ability to stay more true to the source material, then the design is wrong. FFG did it wrong. That's my opinion.

Discuss it some more. Five more threads, five more years. I don't care, and I don't agree with you.

I think that was pretty clear. Me however I agree with the previous thread. I think the crew slot is both implied and already filled. It's there but used, so to speak, whether or not it might break anything isn't the point for me. The ARC-170 has four humans and one droid but I don't expect that to be reflected on the card but rather implied in the capabilities of the craft itself. So I think the design is correct and fine.

Just my two cents and not an argument in any way.

Uh...source material is literally why the SF doesn't have a crew

It has the special ops title

Which is the guy in the back maning the turret

We've seen the interior; there's no room for a third ******* to do unrelated crap

But fear not!

Soon as rebels steal a Tiesf, you can put Sabine's Masterpiece on it to get that precious crew slot

I don't get how you can quit if you haven't started but thanks for letting us know.

I don't care how many times or where you've discussed this.

At all.

I think the Y-wing should have a crew slot option. As should the TIE/sf. If design considerations broke the ability to stay more true to the source material, then the design is wrong. FFG did it wrong. That's my opinion.

Discuss it some more. Five more threads, five more years. I don't care, and I don't agree with you.

I think that was pretty clear. Me however I agree with the previous thread. I think the crew slot is both implied and already filled. It's there but used, so to speak, whether or not it might break anything isn't the point for me. The ARC-170 has four humans and one droid but I don't expect that to be reflected on the card but rather implied in the capabilities of the craft itself. So I think the design is correct and fine.

Just my two cents and not an argument in any way.

I understand and I can see it both ways.

A YT-1300 with no assigned crew upgrade cards still has a primary weapon turret, manned by some no-name person.

Add a special crew member, like "Gunner" or "Luke Skywalker", both of whom appear to be firing guns in their respective artwork (weak evidence) and both of whom change the rules for some aspect of the gun shooting process, and now you've paid some squad points to swap your no-name gunner for a superstar.

Of course, not every crew card acts to upgrade your gunnery abilities. In my mnd, C-3PO or Lando are likely sitting in the cockpit, quoting the odds or rolling the dice. They aren't, to my thinking, manning the gun wells.

In this way, upgrade cards actually equipped serve as notice of 'better than average' capabilities. Of course, game balance suggests you limit the number and type of upgrade slots per ship. You don't have to allow for a one-to-one Crew Upgrade icon to "real-world" passenger capacity.

That being said, you should try to use these mechanics to replicate real Star Wars stories. Luke flying a Y-wing with R2 in the droid socket and 3PO in the back seat. Poe flying a TIE/sf with Finn in the back seat. It's just more fun that way, in my opinion.

And if it can't work that way, balance-wise, then I am irked with the balancers.

That's all.

I assume people don't think Luke added to a YT-1300 means some no-name guy "built in" to the PWT mechanic is still manning the gun well.

"Nice shot, kid, but don't get cocky. And let Larry back to his gunnery position. You're supposed to be riding in the cargo hold. Or something."

Someones still working the bottom turret, no?

Probably Larry