It actually takes a lot of skill to use arc dodgers correctly. But we've had this argument a thousand times before, and even though I've pointed out that if you give Palp Aces to someone who's never played it, they will get crushed, you still argue that it takes no skill to use it.....

I feel like it's constant projection, since you freely admit to playing Palp Aces all the time.

But seriously:

These are not the Conditions we're looking for - move along.

Conditions are just mods that got too wordy to fit on the card and too specific/unique to write a general rules card for.

Conditions are just too complicated.

Agreed.

Palp Aces is a build that says I am so good with this one ship I can tie a ball and chain to it and I will still win. Palpatine does not help if you can't get shots to trigger it and there are plenty of other ways to eliminate a die from a roll or add one that really he is quite balanced in my eyes.

I've sat through, understood and greatly enjoyed 2001: A Space Odyssesy

but I have no **** clue what's going on in this thread

as a big fan of the film, what do you think the monolith represents. please respond in five paragraph mla format, 1.25" margins before next tuesday.

Palp Aces is a build that says I am so good with this one ship I can tie a ball and chain to it and I will still win. Palpatine does not help if you can't get shots to trigger it and there are plenty of other ways to eliminate a die from a roll or add one that really he is quite balanced in my eyes.

Excellent post. I've changed my mind, Palpatine is a completely balanced card and the game is much better because it's in the game.

All this talk of Conditions makes me wonder whether Xwings turning into Guld Wars

It actually takes a lot of skill to use arc dodgers correctly. But we've had this argument a thousand times before, and even though I've pointed out that if you give Palp Aces to someone who's never played it, they will get crushed, you still argue that it takes no skill to use it.....

I feel like it's constant projection, since you freely admit to playing Palp Aces all the time.

But seriously:

Your first time with most builds aren't going to be good. The first 2-3 times anyone played a pre-nerf phantom they'd almost go out of their way to land it on an asteroid in the initial engagement and immediately lose it.

I was also told that phantoms weren't OP because they didn't win worlds.

So yeah, I'm not surprised that someone needs a game or two to get the basics of an (overpowered) list or ship down. This kind of crap was said about the Phantom and how it wasn't broken because, "One mistake and you could lose it, it takes skill to fly. I'm sick and tired of your whining PGS". Yeah, no ****, if you make a huge blunder with any list you lose the game.

I'd like to point you to a post from a turret apologist from over a year ago:

I think you're an exception. Most complainers complain about Fat Han.

As I read it, the basic complaint is that some do not like the way the game plays when you're up against PWTs. When I played a Han Shoots First list, I won three games in a row against someone who had been fairly succesfull with his TIE swarm led by Vader. That was when I realized that playing against an EU/PWT/large base combination can be akin to banging your head against a brick wall. This was not tournament-level play, mind you, but since then I do see the point that some are tring to make. It has been described quite well and noted.

The discussion about statistics really boils down to the same thing. The percentages one sees of YTs and decimators are high - especially if you add them up - but it will be hard to avoid ships being popular to that degree, even if there are no turrets. The bare statistics do not convincingly suggest some change is needed, because some other combination of three ships might just as well become equally popular. What are we supposed to do if three ships happen to be in 60% of winning lists? Look for their common characteristic and nerf that? Of course not. The bare numbers do not suggest that turrets are a problem, even if they are clearly powerful.

However, the statistics do show that there's a good chance you will play several PWTs in a row. That kind of sucks if you don't like how the game plays when one side has such a ship. So keeping in mind the dislike I mentioned earlier, the statistics confirm what the complaining crowd is saying: the competitions have too many games that they don't like.

But as has been said before, it remains a subjective thing. My last games with turrets have been exciting enough. I'm too lazy to insert a witty internet meme here, but "I don't like thing!" comes to mind. Which is totally okay, but there is just not enough reason to really call the turrets broken on that basis alone.

"The bare numbers do not suggest that turrets are a problem, even if they are clearly powerful."

This was a time where you'd show up to an event, and between the top 4 players there would be 6 fat turrets. People were this delusional about Turretwing, it's no surprise that you'd be this delusional about Palp Aces.

Palp Aces is a build that says I am so good with this one ship I can tie a ball and chain to it and I will still win. Palpatine does not help if you can't get shots to trigger it and there are plenty of other ways to eliminate a die from a roll or add one that really he is quite balanced in my eyes.

Excellent post. I've changed my mind, Palpatine is a completely balanced card and the game is much better because it's in the game.

See? Even PGS can have is mind changed if... ahh it looks like my manservant Ferdinand has something he wants to say to me.

<whispers>

What's that now Ferdinand? Sarcasm? What's sarcasm?

<whispers>

I see.

<whispers>

I see.

Well then nothing to see here, carry on.

But seriously, FFG is literally never, NEVER EVER, going to change the Palp card. So why keep complaining about it? Their never going to change the text or the cost. And they are ESPECIALLY never going to make him cost an epic point.

You might as well be shouting at a rock telling it to break and be expecting that it will at some point.

We were eased in/distracted with a prancing gyro-cannon and some solid Ace-counters - but it's here.

X-Wing 1.5: The Conditioning

Now with more of the game taking place next to space mat! Pilot abilities, upgrades, and crew are passe. Dive into the thematic and mental Condition of your favorite on-screen characters. And if you fear for a second you'll forget what they look like, you need only look at your growing side board.

You wanted more mechanically relevant versions of your favorite ships but instead got "Shown the Dark Side".

The Mouse sends his regards.

Yet another forum member complaining about something that's not actually a problem.

Was I the only one literally gobsmacked by the planetoid sized unwitting irony in that statement?

I doubt it...

RoV

Am I the only one literally gobsmacked by the greed of imperial players and their unwillingness to acknowledge that their ships are invincible against most lists, and that it doesn't take any skill to just see where everything has moved and then boost and barrel roll with perfect information?

You're wrong, just like the Phantom and turret apologists. Turrets take skill to fly and they don't ruin the game, right?

unwillingness to acknowledge that their ships are invincible against most lists?

No, they aren't. Learn to play without 'gaming' the player.

Turrets take skill to fly and they don't ruin the game, right?

Yes they do, and no they don't. You simply fail to handle change. And then whine endlessly about it.

RoV

You might as well be shouting at a rock telling it to break and be expecting that it will at some point.

Once you have learned the weirding way that can be an outcome if you so choose.

But seriously, FFG is literally never, NEVER EVER, going to change the Palp card. So why keep complaining about it? Their never going to change the text or the cost. And they are ESPECIALLY never going to make him cost an epic point.

You might as well be shouting at a rock telling it to break and be expecting that it will at some point.

That is quite misleading. I was just listening to an interview with Alex Davy (186th Squadron Podcast) and he said that although the design team likes to keep errata as the last resort option, they wouldn't hesitate to do it if it was needed.

Therefore, while I think it's safe to say FFG doesn't share PGS's opinion of Palpatine (there has been no indication of such so far), I think it's also safe to say that, if at some point Palpatine will be considered a problem, appropriate measures will be taken

We were eased in/distracted with a prancing gyro-cannon and some solid Ace-counters - but it's here.

X-Wing 1.5: The Conditioning

Now with more of the game taking place next to space mat! Pilot abilities, upgrades, and crew are passe. Dive into the thematic and mental Condition of your favorite on-screen characters. And if you fear for a second you'll forget what they look like, you need only look at your growing side board.

You wanted more mechanically relevant versions of your favorite ships but instead got "Shown the Dark Side".

The Mouse sends his regards.

Yet another forum member complaining about something that's not actually a problem.

Was I the only one literally gobsmacked by the planetoid sized unwitting irony in that statement?

I doubt it...

RoV

Am I the only one literally gobsmacked by the greed of imperial players and their unwillingness to acknowledge that their ships are invincible against most lists, and that it doesn't take any skill to just see where everything has moved and then boost and barrel roll with perfect information?

You're wrong, just like the Phantom and turret apologists. Turrets take skill to fly and they don't ruin the game, right?

unwillingness to acknowledge that their ships are invincible against most lists?

No, they aren't. Learn to play without 'gaming' the player.

Turrets take skill to fly and they don't ruin the game, right?

Yes they do, and no they don't. You simply fail to handle change. And then whine endlessly about it.

RoV

I knew I was arguing with someone who was a-okay with the game being blatantly ruined. That's why you're okay with Palp Aces and you think that turrets take skill.

Nowadays, Turrets take a lot of skill to win because they aren't that great in the current meta. Super Dash and sometimes Miranda are the only true Turrets you see. JMK (outside of Punishing One) has proven to be a fake/poor Turret because it's only useful as Dengaroo (arc is everything) and as TorpBoats (arc is everything).

We were eased in/distracted with a prancing gyro-cannon and some solid Ace-counters - but it's here.

X-Wing 1.5: The Conditioning

Now with more of the game taking place next to space mat! Pilot abilities, upgrades, and crew are passe. Dive into the thematic and mental Condition of your favorite on-screen characters. And if you fear for a second you'll forget what they look like, you need only look at your growing side board.

You wanted more mechanically relevant versions of your favorite ships but instead got "Shown the Dark Side".

The Mouse sends his regards.

Yet another forum member complaining about something that's not actually a problem.

Was I the only one literally gobsmacked by the planetoid sized unwitting irony in that statement?

I doubt it...

RoV

Am I the only one literally gobsmacked by the greed of imperial players and their unwillingness to acknowledge that their ships are invincible against most lists, and that it doesn't take any skill to just see where everything has moved and then boost and barrel roll with perfect information?

You're wrong, just like the Phantom and turret apologists. Turrets take skill to fly and they don't ruin the game, right?

unwillingness to acknowledge that their ships are invincible against most lists?

No, they aren't. Learn to play without 'gaming' the player.

Turrets take skill to fly and they don't ruin the game, right?

Yes they do, and no they don't. You simply fail to handle change. And then whine endlessly about it.

RoV

Of course you think that turrets take skill. Go back to your ruined Turretwing meta where you can pretend that it takes skill to pointlessly maneuver your turret around as if it won't have a shot on your opponent's turret and out dice roll your opponent.

I knew I was arguing with someone who was a-okay with the game being blatantly ruined. That's why you're okay with Palp Aces and you think that turrets take skill.

Then don't play kiddo. Take you toys and whine in some other game. The game isn't ruined, it's just that you fail to adapt, and fail to accept there will be change.

Get over it

RoV

How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat?!

ParaGumba Slayer has this whole forum hair-brained lol

Side note, doesn't HLC Super Dash take skill in maneuvering him in a fashion that lets you take TL and Focus without having to waste an action to re position so his enemies are not in doughnut?

Yes, he's just one ship but as a Dash player I wanted to drop that in there

Anyway, as you were.....

But seriously, FFG is literally never, NEVER EVER, going to change the Palp card. So why keep complaining about it? Their never going to change the text or the cost. And they are ESPECIALLY never going to make him cost an epic point.

You might as well be shouting at a rock telling it to break and be expecting that it will at some point.

That is quite misleading. I was just listening to an interview with Alex Davy (186th Squadron Podcast) and he said that although the design team likes to keep errata as the last resort option, they wouldn't hesitate to do it if it was needed.

Therefore, while I think it's safe to say FFG doesn't share PGS's opinion of Palpatine (there has been no indication of such so far), I think it's also safe to say that, if at some point Palpatine will be considered a problem, appropriate measures will be taken

While they have errataed cards in the past, those are usually only clarifications on wording that was otherwise ambiguous. They've NEVER changed the point cost of a card or fundamentally changed how a card or ship worked. And before PGS has an aneurysm and starts bringing up the Phantom, FFG didn't fundamentally change how that ship worked, they just changed when the de-cloak maneuver took place

And I forget what the guy's name was, but someone did a really in depth analysis of what lists were overpowered. And of all the overpowered lists, Palp Aces was the least over powered coming in at something like 114% overpowered. For reference, I think trip scouts was ~135% overpowered. But since he never, ever mentions other overpowered lists as ruining the game in the same way as Palp Aces has, it's just obvious that it's a personal grudge and that he doesn't really care about game balance. Or that Palpatine touched him in his swimsuit area when he was little.

the heaviest errata theyve done is slap "Limited" on tactician. ALL other changes were timing related or clarifications, i.e. stuff that either isnt on the card or isnt explained very well on the card.

The change to decloak being the most radical one but again thats not on the upgrade card itself so it doesnt count. Even when i first started playing i never had the ref cards lying around, but the upgrade cards are here to stay. Changing a ref card means nothing.