I've been noticing that my practice games with 8 squadrons tend to take around 3 hours of play time. I now know why people go with 8YT24 instead of say 5 YT24, 1 Jan 2 Xwings. It just saves so much more headache time when you're in a tournament for your third game of the day in the last 7 hours.

I was looking at Wave5, and I'm noticing while the relaying of commands is cool, it just adds more loops you can jump through: Get your attack done, yet still be range of the shuttle. Then, amke sure that shuttle will be range to the original ship, which is now moving.

This also doesn't change the fact that for the most part, the best tactic currently in squadron play is to simply go mass vs mass and hope you come out ahead via activation mistakes or dice or stalling for time by sniping one enemy at a time.

Anyway, it seems like there's going to be a lot more nitty gritty remember what squadron does what, what needs to be in range of what, while not changing the dynamic of what squadron vs squadron battles will really look like: blob vs blob.

1. Do you feel like also that there's becoming too many keywords and little differences to handle optimally playing squadrons? Between all the keywords, distance, Bomber Command for bombers only, black AS die vs bomber AS.

2. Do you think that the little symbols and things on the base don't really help you keep strong track of what's what anymore? Too many keywords and symbols.

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I gave a version of the VT Decimator that looked like this. While it got some likes, I'm not sure why people didn't like for the reasons I gave:

Decimator

Cost 20. (high cost squadrons force less total)

Hull 8

Move 3

Battery blue black

AA blue blue black black

Lone wolf - When you attack and/or defend, if there are no allied squadrons within distance 3 of you, you may choose and reroll two dice.

This makes a solo fighter that is good for tying up a flank. Its also great for being commanded from a Raider. Its also got the ability to go 1v2 or 1v3 and take out two opposing squadrons.

It also without Rogue, requires you to think about where to put it. But it also gives you strong value as a set of maybe 2 as a paltry squadron force.

This also changes the dynamic of the squadron fight. All of a sudden you don't want to be putting all your squadrons in one place.

With your premise being there are two many things to remember and the symbols on the bases don't help, I can't help but wonder where are your cards?

For tournments I have been playing 8-10 (settled on 8 for this year) squadrons since Wave 2. I have never gone to time and most games take between 1 to 1.5 hours. I paint my squadrons so that helps identify things. There really isn't to many abilities. Most people take multiples or lots of 3-4, your Bombers, your anti squadron, a couple of heroes. Reeiken or Imp A Team make it a little dense but it's hardly cerebral.

I want more abilities!

Surely Boosted Comms has entirely removed the need for wondering where your squadrons will end their move in relation to their carrier?

-edit- holllllyyyy fuckkkkkk wave 5! Well...you didn't want abilities but you got them anyway ;p seriously though they are pretty awesome

1. Do you feel like also that there's becoming too many keywords and little differences to handle optimally playing squadrons? Between all the keywords, distance, Bomber Command for bombers only, black AS die vs bomber AS.

Yeah, I hear you on some level with this one. When wave 3 with BCC was first spoiled and people were trialling it on Vassal, they noted this problem. So many layers of abilities to remember.

A couple of things to note here:

1) It may be a necessary evil, in order to have diversity in this game, we need squadrons that behave differently. (Though your idea with the VT was not such a bad one)

2) We'll need to be careful, when teaching new players, of how much exposure we give them to all the different abilities, so as not to leave them feeling overwhelmed. This is nothing new for us. It's just that with the excitement of all the new stuff, we'll have to be extra careful not to get carried away.

3) It will (hopefully) increase the skill ceiling of the game. ie, not only do you have to remember what all the abilities are (and that you have them) but also have to plan accordingly on how to use them so as to get the most out of them. As you have already noted, for us now, that feels quite daunting. So we ask ourselves, will it raise the skill ceiling to unattainable heights? The question is, will we look back in a few years time and wonder what we were worried about, or will we look back in a few years time and wonder why we/FFG ever opened this Pandora's box?

I think what you are lacking is practice with the squadron game. I have been playing squadrons since the core set. I rarely forget to make use of a rule, or see what my opponents squadrons rules do. In our community we call it Squadron Chess.

More squadrons I say! Moar!

With your premise being there are two many things to remember and the symbols on the bases don't help, I can't help but wonder where are your cards?

Right in front of the play area usually. There are 5 foot tables at the game store. Unfortunately, its hard to see the other guys stuff also.

Why? Are you insinuating something else?

I'm practicing quite a bit. But as I've said in another thread, I get a game for Armada usually once a month, due to player base limitations. So... yeah, sure takes a long time to practice.

I'm one of those players that tries to eke out every last drop of efficiency in the list, which i think is what is bogging down my thinking process.

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Yes, as with the Vassal people, I started proxying Wave3 and Wave4, and holy hell. BCC and Toryn Farr seriously change the thinking.

Yes, let me clarify: In wave2, I can easily finish a squadron game within time. Once you add wave3, it goes out the door. Easily 3 hours.

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I do like having more abilities. But they are hard to remember and have literally no useful visual cues. I barely know the icons for escort and heavy. But the rest become mixed up. And theyre hard to see. Even with the models, ive literally picked up a B once and said "I'll attack with this Xwing", and my opponent kindly pointed out that I had literally confused the models.

I've considered taping a little drink umbrella to Jan Ors, to remind me she has intel. Or even, two layers of bubbles... that's the problem: She has the intel bubble, and THEN she has the dis2 ability bubble.

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Another problem I've had, unrelatedly, is actually remember which ships have moved towards the end of a game where a lot of stuff still lives. Has anyone else wished that ships had a token or flipper for ativated status? Anyone else frequently forget which ship has moved? I think it would totally quickly make it easier to scan the battlefield and understand it.

I'm practicing quite a bit. But as I've said in another thread, I get a game for Armada usually once a month, due to player base limitations. So... yeah, sure takes a long time to practice.

I'm one of those players that tries to eke out every last drop of efficiency in the list, which i think is what is bogging down my thinking process.

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Yes, as with the Vassal people, I started proxying Wave3 and Wave4, and holy hell. BCC and Toryn Farr seriously change the thinking.

Yes, let me clarify: In wave2, I can easily finish a squadron game within time. Once you add wave3, it goes out the door. Easily 3 hours.

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I do like having more abilities. But they are hard to remember and have literally no useful visual cues. I barely know the icons for escort and heavy. But the rest become mixed up. And theyre hard to see. Even with the models, ive literally picked up a B once and said "I'll attack with this Xwing", and my opponent kindly pointed out that I had literally confused the models.

I've considered taping a little drink umbrella to Jan Ors, to remind me she has intel. Or even, two layers of bubbles... that's the problem: She has the intel bubble, and THEN she has the dis2 ability bubble.

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Another problem I've had, unrelatedly, is actually remember which ships have moved towards the end of a game where a lot of stuff still lives. Has anyone else wished that ships had a token or flipper for ativated status? Anyone else frequently forget which ship has moved? I think it would totally quickly make it easier to scan the battlefield and understand it.

Yeah, the problem is that even with the symbols on the bases, there are going to be a lot of bubble effects (Toryn, escort, BCC) to remember as well that don't show up on the base.

As for activation remembering, I just stick the command dial on the ship's base after activating.

I have played almost the full allotment of squadrons in tourneys (and casual) since Wave 2 hit and yes, games are much more demanding and taxing to track, especially if your opponent is also playing with a lot of squads. You not only have to reassess the board on your turn, but it's imperative you watch your opponents moves and calculations when they activate their squads, in case they make a mistake. With lots of keywords and interactions it's very demanding.

The only reason I took a bye in a recent regional is to keep my brain from exploding from playing 3+ matches with a complex squad build. I'm crying a little just thinking of all of the interactions with the new squad keywords. I'm still advocating a reduction in squad allowance and increase in build max, with a net result of less squad point max. Something around 80 points seems good to me for tourney play. A squad base is a set of fighters you know!

Yeah. I tend to agree... There is a LOT going on at this point, maybe too much for me to remember easily:(

Hopefully we get a little fighter guide card like we did for defense tokens and commands

Another problem I've had, unrelatedly, is actually remember which ships have moved towards the end of a game where a lot of stuff still lives. Has anyone else wished that ships had a token or flipper for ativated status? Anyone else frequently forget which ship has moved? I think it would totally quickly make it easier to scan the battlefield and understand it.

This is why I paint my ships and name them. So I KNOW which ship is which because who could confuse Steve and Alan? They are completely different beasts and have vastly different paint jobs as a result.

Maybe if they throw enough trash at the wall something will stick and not be terrible.

Being a bit middle aged I to suffer from Brain pain after playing all day with a complex list. Because of this I tend to run my ships simple. Got a five round nationals next week, my brain would be soup if I took a complex list.

I think one of the problems is kinda the way the ranges on everything with fighters tends to push them into very crowded balls which makes it harder to identify them and harder to manipulate the bases without jostling everything. To me it's more physical than a rule complexity thing.

At a game just last night we were discussing something similar, though with maybe a different take-away. I think we may see more specialist, rather than utility, lists. With the variety of combos available with Waves 3-5, I think people will obviously experiment more, but that fleets will be less and less flexible, in the sense that it is increasingly difficult to create a fleet that is a 'take all comers' type.Through wave two, you could reasonably predict combos you might face in your local meta. Now, I don't think it's going to be so easy. If points stay at 400, I think solid generalist fleets will become difficult to put together.

As far as too many options/not remembering stuff, I think it's just a matter of time and exposure. I love all the possibilities and options.

Also, if we're talking face to face friendly matches, I'm struggling to understand why a single match would take 3 hours, unless a lot of time is spent chatting and it's all very relaxed. 2 hours, sure, but 3 seems very slow play to me.

Our friendlies can often take 3 hours but we often discus options strategies, what work etc...