So, been playing around proxy proxying wave 4 stuff lately and I have to say at first I was excited to get new ships but the more I use it the more I realise the liberty is really a one trick pony.

Sure it's front guns are nice, it's fast7 etc... it is a good ship I'm not saying otherwise but I don't know... it seems like a boring ship?

The imperials got the interdictor, a somewhat unique beast that opens up whole new avenues of play and whole new tactics.

The rebels got a big neb b (again not saying it's an ineffective ship).

Maybe it's just me? Or does anyone else agree?

It's an attack ship. With two turbos and N ion cannon slot you should have plenty of ways to blow things up. I like it enough to get two.

Oo I'm not denying it's good at blowing things up :-) Ivery experienced that from both ends.

I guess I'm just a little underwhelmed because that's all it can do,and it only had 1 way of doing it.

By this token, is the ISD a one trick pony? Side by side, they're essentially Imperial and Rebel equivalents of the same ship: similar heavy front arc, similar less powerful side arc, similar upgrades and similar movement. It's hull value and number of guns that's the main difference, and that's reflected in the significantly lower price for the Liberty. Plus the Liberty has some really nice titles, all of which shuffle up their options.

The big thing with the Liberty is arguably not the ship itself (after all, Rebels already have a big hitter in the standard MC80), but the options it opens up with other ships in the Rebel arsenal. Combine it with Nebulons and Corvettes, and you've got a powerful, front arc dominated fleet. Combine it with MC30s, and you can use the Liberty to get them to the fight, and use the powerful broadsides of the MC30s at close range. Combine it with an MC30 or an Assault Frigate, and you can have a squadron heavy fleet that doesn't have to float round the edges to make best use of their guns whilst supporting fighters.

The Interdictor is a big shake-up of the Imperial meta in itself, due to its unique abilities. The Liberty, I agree with you, is in that sense less radical. But given that Rebels already have an extra ship to choose from, this really multiplies the options available, in a way that I think will have a huge impact. So, in a sense, on paper the Interdictor is more exciting, but on the game board I'm confident that both will make a huge difference to the way this game is played.

By this token, is the ISD a one trick pony? Side by side, they're essentially Imperial and Rebel equivalents of the same ship:

The ISD has squadron value of 4. The Liberty has a squadron value of 2.

That makes a significant difference to your argument.

@Garro

I think what you're trying to say is...

1) The "Liberty" is a hammer type ship that appears to do one thing and do it well. The Interdictor is game-altering, more subtle tool.

2) In the competitive scene, the Rebels appear to have more variety in their builds.

In general, I believe that most people on the forum will agree with the above statements.

In terms of the FUN, have you tried to run the Liberty with the different Rebel Admirals? See if that makes it more interesting for you to play. I guess the only one is Mon Mothma where it won't matter to the Liberty directly. Sure, it's still a hammer, but there will be different ways on how to hit the nails.

I think Ginkapo hit on one of the main differences between the isd and the liberty.

The isd can function as a long range gunship, a close range brawler, tank, carrier or a mix of a few things.

Don't get me wrong I've enjoyed the liberty for what it is, as said here, a hammer but it really is a 1 trick pony in my eyes which is a bit of a shame.

By this token, is the ISD a one trick pony? Side by side, they're essentially Imperial and Rebel equivalents of the same ship:

The ISD has squadron value of 4. The Liberty has a squadron value of 2.

That makes a significant difference to your argument.

The Liberty also has the 'Liberty' title, which allows you to activate two squadrons with one token. Combine that with Raymus Antilles, and you have a ship with effective squadron value of 4 with a dial and token, and one that can make use of a squadron token more effectively than other ships.

I take your point that the ISD is the more natural carrier, and I'm not saying they're the same ship (hence why I said equivalents), but the Liberty can serve in the role of a more limited carrier, and certainly can have a place in a squadron heavy build. My main point was that a) the Liberty isn't as limited in itself as Garro suggested and b) that it's main advantage was the combinations it opens up with other ships.

Underwhelmed?

I'd give my right arm for a ship like the Liberty and an Admiral like Madine lol

2 TL slots, 2 braces, speed 3 can take Engine Techs, great titles....I mean apart from Nebs rebels have always been about side arcs, and flanking, now you have an out and out powerhouse that can engage head on, or use its absurd speed and maneuverability to get past Imperial front arcs and mercilessly pound them in the side/rear. I am not sure "underwhelmed" is the right descriptor.

On paper there is a great flaw with the Liberty and its summed up in this question:

Why do I want to take a liberty instead of two Nebulons?

For a long time if we wanted a forward firing rebel gunship there was one choice, and it is a good choice. The Nebulon B packs well above its weight and comes with two great titles which help in making it a great ship.

If you look at the two in a straight comparison its a one sided story:

Red Range dice - 6 for the two Nebs, 3 for the Liberty

Blue Range dice - 6 for the two Nebs, 8 for the Libery

Black Range dice - as above

Hull - 10 for the two Nebs, 8 for the Liberty

Front Shields - 6 for the two Nebs, 5 for the Liberty.

So in a straight up fight, you have to back the two Nebs.

Except there are some more subtle differences:

The Liberty has a redirect where the Nebulon had an evade. So whilst this removes the ability to abuse turbo laser reroute circuits, it does something far more significant. The Nebulons have had a problem with getting flanked with only a single shield on their sides. The Liberty suffers from a lack of shields also, but it now has a way to move the damage to those beefed up front shields making it markedly more survivable.

The Liberty packs a bigger punch and has a title perfect for taking the first activation. Unlike the imperial equivalent in Avenger, Mon Karren is designed to hit first! It doesnt matter what defense tokens the enemy ship has it only gets to use one, so no need to wait for the brace to exhaust. Pick the juicy low shields, hammer the 8 dice, use leading shots to reroll any accuracies for more pure damage and pump the damage straight through, either crippling or destroying the target. A Nebulon cant do this, even Salvation likes to shoot on targets AFTER they have used their braces/redirects against other ships.

So whilst I dont necessarily get excited by the Liberty, it has a definite role in our fleets. It can hold a flank quite well for a forward firing ship, and can abuse last/first activation's much better than any other rebel ship (including the MC30), and can even do so as second player as who cares if they get to shoot at the 5 front shields first?

The only fleet I expect to see multiple in is the Rebel equivalent of PT's dual ISDs. Madine with Mon Karren, MC80 Star Cruiser, TRC90, TRC90, TRC90 with as many rogues as points allow.

I'd also add that playing against Konstantine/Interdictors is just as much fun as playing with them, so wouldnt be too upset about imperials having the tricks.

@Ceej - To turn the MC80 Liberty into an effective squadron carrier you have to spend significant points, and by the time you are doing that, just take an assault frigate, or MC80 Home One.

I think the fact the Liberty is a one trick pony with massive forward firepower and the vindicator is a support ship that added lots of option is perfect for game balance.

The rebels did not have the heavy forward facing sledgehammer option before, now they do.

The imps did not have any good support ships for clever synergy options, now they do.

All is in balance......

@Ceej - To turn the MC80 Liberty into an effective squadron carrier you have to spend significant points, and by the time you are doing that, just take an assault frigate, or MC80 Home One.

It's a three point upgrade. You're quibbling details, my main point still stands. No-one's taking the Liberty as their primary carrier in a squad-focused list, but it can serve in that role if push comes to shove.

Agree with the rest however.

Again I'm not saying it's a bad ship, it's very good at what it does which is hammer dirty imperials into the ground.

I'm not saying I won't use one, I almost certainly will.

Madine has been my favourite Admiral with them so far without a doubt.

I'm just saying I'm a little disappointed at the one trick pony nature of it. Don't get me wrong I know every ship can't be everything, specialisation is fine. But I just hoped large base ships would be a little more multi role.

The isd has multiple roles and is excellent in all of them, the mc80 command cruiser also has the capacity to do a couple of different things (support ship, carrier, gunboat etc).

The liberty does one thing it does it really really well but it does one thing, in one way. For everything else you're better off taking something else.

@Ceej - To turn the MC80 Liberty into an effective squadron carrier you have to spend significant points, and by the time you are doing that, just take an assault frigate, or MC80 Home One.

It's a three point upgrade. You're quibbling details, my main point still stands. No-one's taking the Liberty as their primary carrier in a squad-focused list, but it can serve in that role if push comes to shove.

Agree with the rest however.

I see where you're coming from but I'd argue it's a 10 pt upgrade to use it as a carrier, you need Raymus to get that token to activate 4 squads a turn, like every other carrier can. And then you're stuck at 4, an isd can be pushed to 6 squads a turn for instance (wulf and expanded hangers).

Don't forget that the Liberty has a much wider forward arc than the Neb - that's important, both for keeping arc on target and for avoiding exposing the sides.

The mix of reds and blues - and the large number of dice in the attack - also lets it do stuff the Neb can't (but the MC80 H1 and ISD-II can). We're talking about generating a good amount of damage and accuracies at medium range. Then Neb can't really do that (except maybe the Salvation, when you get lucky - but we're not talking luck here).

Redirect is important, even if it's just a single one. It can shunt dmg to the front - or the unused back. Furthermore, even if the redir is acced, 2 shields is a big difference from 1 (when you have 2 braces) when it comes to avoiding hull dmg.

Then it's the combination of Gunnery Teams (or possibly F-C Teams) that sets up some interesting combinations. XI7/Spinal. Leading Shots. XX-9s and some Ion crit upgrade. And possibly even more combos in the future.

Speed 3 & ET is also enough to make it interesting, esp. with Madine.

In conclusion: it's not Interdictor kind of cool, but its not a big, boring Neb. The Liberty MC80 is a huge boost for the Rebel arsenal.

@Ceej - To turn the MC80 Liberty into an effective squadron carrier you have to spend significant points, and by the time you are doing that, just take an assault frigate, or MC80 Home One.

It's a three point upgrade. You're quibbling details, my main point still stands. No-one's taking the Liberty as their primary carrier in a squad-focused list, but it can serve in that role if push comes to shove.

Agree with the rest however.

I see where you're coming from but I'd argue it's a 10 pt upgrade to use it as a carrier, you need Raymus to get that token to activate 4 squads a turn, like every other carrier can. And then you're stuck at 4, an isd can be pushed to 6 squads a turn for instance (wulf and expanded hangers).

Comms Net. Seems common enough these days. Veteran captain maybe.

Again I'm not saying it's a bad ship, it's very good at what it does which is hammer dirty imperials into the ground.

I'm not saying I won't use one, I almost certainly will.

I know what you are saying, if you want to play a Liberty list, then why not just play imperials and take an ISD? I have to agree with you here. I dont see at the moment any Liberty lists which really benefit from being Rebels.

To add to it, there arent really any cards I get that excited by in the expansion:

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/223777-with-images-interdictor-liberty/

Skilled first officer is nice, but not worth the expansion alone.

@GreenKnight, if you are running a Comms Net to feed Liberty, then just run the GR75 as a squadron pusher......

Oh God. Please don't "X-Wing" Armada with the viability talk.

Now that that's said.....

I see this bringing the fleets more in line. The Rebs get a knife fighter, and the Imps get the space going equivalent of a Blue deck in Magic. I think it opens some great avenues for the game. Oh yeah, the Rebs also Get Madine with the Liberty, soooooooo yeah. Space ship drifting for days!

@green knight comms net is an option but then you're really pushing up the cost of using it as a carrier, the liberty title is a nice little extra to push 2 squads at an important time if you lack a carrier but a carrier itself it doesn't make.

@Ginkapo Yeah that pretty much sums it up, i like to mix it up with different lists and I can't think k of one rebel list that's had me thinking 'wow I'll use a liberty instead'.

It does have some fun tricks though with those double Turbolasers, not sure it has three staying power to justify the point investment it'll take to make use of them though?

It does have some fun tricks though with those double Turbolasers, not sure it has three staying power to justify the point investment it'll take to make use of them though?

Go watch some CactusMan replays. If he can keep his Devestator alive with zero defense tokens you can make the Liberty work.

@Ginkapo I've no doubt it's possible, a one trick pony hammer it may be but you can't dent it is one hell of a hammer.

The Liberty is awesome, it just takes some getting used to (at least it did for me, a primarily rebel player)

The Liberty title is probably the star of the show, as you have something now (supported with Comms Net) that can push two squadrons while doing other commands. It pretty much always and forever wants Navigates, and Madine is for sure its bro.

Comparing it to Nebs is a bit of apples to oranges because, like Green Knight pointed out, the arcs are different and Nebs only throw red dice, the diciest of dice. In addition, the only dice manipulation a Neb can take is a TRC, while Leading Shots with Spinal Armament makes this thing the same dice as an ISD II and the ability to modify dice for less points, and it is capable of taking Gunnery Team/Flight Controller. It is a very different animal and very much worth the time in getting used to how it plays.

Liberty is a hammer, nothing more, nothing less. Paired with 2 Neb's the potential is mad. It doesn't underwhelm me at all, it just has one job and it's going to do that very, very well. What you place with it will determine its long term success.

This was kinda what I have been toying around with when building around the Liberty, everything feeds into it. This list Raymus on a GR-75 with comms net, a big swarm of JanOWings controlled by two GR-75s and the Liberty. A auto damage CR 90 that can feed a CF command to the Liberty when it needs it while it just spam Maneuver commands to get into place. Maybe not the most competitive but has some fun tricks and lots of synergy.

Faction: Rebel Alliance
Points: 399/400

Commander: General Madine

Assault Objective: Precision Strike
Defense Objective: Contested Outpost
Navigation Objective: Superior Positions

MC80 Battle Cruiser (103 points)
- Liberty ( 3 points)
- Gunnery Team ( 7 points)
- Spinal Armament ( 9 points)
- X17 Turbolasers ( 6 points)
- Leading Shots ( 4 points)
= 132 total ship cost

GR-75 Medium Transports (18 points)
- Raymus Antilles ( 7 points)
- Expanded Hangar Bay ( 5 points)
- Comms Net ( 2 points)
= 32 total ship cost

GR-75 Medium Transports (18 points)
- Toryn Farr ( 7 points)
- Expanded Hangar Bay ( 5 points)
- Bomber Command Center ( 8 points)
= 38 total ship cost

[ flagship ] CR90 Corvette B (39 points)
- General Madine ( 30 points)
- Tantive IV ( 3 points)
- Leia Organa ( 3 points)
- Electronic Countermeasures ( 7 points)
- SW 7 Ion Batteries ( 5 points)
= 87 total ship cost

7 X-Wing Squadrons ( 91 points)
1 Jan Ors ( 19 points)

Wait? It is a one trick pony?! No one told me. . . And here I am fiddling with builds with Flight Coordination Teams, Engine Techs, different Turbolaser upgrades and Ion Cannon upgrades. . . who would have thought. . .