not even just mathematically sound.

In the movies a single xwing takes out tie after tie after tie. They have vastly superior guns, but in game theyre only +1 die. Had they been +2 it probably would break the game but i dont think having slightly more accurate than normal 3die would be gamebreaking and that would give them that edge over tie fighters.

I've often wondered if they would have more design space if, at the start of the game, they had doubled all of the stats (i.e. TIE Fighters at 4/6/6/0, XWings at 6/4/6/4). That way they would have more room in between ships.

I really wish they would have made the Slicer unique. That is my only compliant. Otherwise I like how it handles the aces, I just think it can be abused.

Right, and Fel was not reflected in the films.

I'm not arguing against his inclusion in the game. I'm saying arguing for broken mechanics because it was reflected in the films is silly, or making incorrect statements like Rebels never took on Imperials straight up to argue for bad mechanics is silly.

Rebels were vastly superior pilots in the films. Imperials used swarm tactics in the films to gain an advantage. I guarantee most Imperial players wouldn't be happy if the game were accurate to the films.

Right, and Fel was not reflected in the films.

I'm not arguing against his inclusion in the game. I'm saying arguing for broken mechanics because it was reflected in the films is silly, or making incorrect statements like Rebels never took on Imperials straight up to argue for bad mechanics is silly.

Rebels were vastly superior pilots in the films. Imperials used swarm tactics in the films to gain an advantage. I guarantee most Imperial players wouldn't be happy if the game were accurate to the films.

Hey, if I got 300pts to the Rebel player's 100pts I'd be fine with that...

I really wish they would have made it unique. That is my only compliant. Otherwise I like how it handles the aces, I just think it can be abused.

It doesn't really need to be unique. The requirement to remove a stress token when doing damage regulates the amount of damage that can be done each round. A squad that is built around putting as many Slicer Tools on the board as possible will only really be effective against squads with multiple PTL aces.

I really wish they would have made the Slicer unique. That is my only compliant. Otherwise I like how it handles the aces, I just think it can be abused.

I think it needs to be something you can abuse Aces with....otherwise people will just keep playing them. They need to be toned down.

1. Black Sun Slicer comes out and some people abuse it to destroy Imp Aces.
2. People quit playing Imp Aces. You see a lot of people not taking Soontir Fel. They explore other options like new Tie Defenders.
3. People stop taking Black Sun Slicer all the time as they don't see Soontir Fel in 75% of matches.
4. Some people start using Soontir Fel again and he's reasonable. He's also not in every Imperial list you see.

not even just mathematically sound.

In the movies a single xwing takes out tie after tie after tie. They have vastly superior guns, but in game theyre only +1 die. Had they been +2 it probably would break the game but i dont think having slightly more accurate than normal 3die would be gamebreaking and that would give them that edge over tie fighters.

I've often wondered if they would have more design space if, at the start of the game, they had doubled all of the stats (i.e. TIE Fighters at 4/6/6/0, XWings at 6/4/6/4). That way they would have more room in between ships.

thats one of the issues with using low numbers. Its really hard to justify increasing the stat, but the model feels underwhelming without it.

The most balanced tabletop game ive seen thats still a dice game is Warzone because its based on a D20. Speaking purely on the stats here since it has some REALLY f'ing bad core rules that ruin the game anyway. Everything has high numbers, with 12 being the average for most stats and 15 being pretty dang good and 18 being WOW HES A MONSTER (max 19, cant be 20). The 1pt stat difference between some of the troops were trivial most of the time, but still could save your bacon. Quite a few times i had my Commandos take a hit and i'd roll a 7 after mathing the attack vs my 12 armor, which was the max i needed. if that same attack hit my Mourning Wolves, which were armor 11, i would have lost a model. Insanely small difference but it still matters.

A single number in Xwing can be gamebreaking because of the scale they use for those numbers. We see 2agility ships take full damage from attacks all the time, but somehow 3agility ships ***** by with 1 hit or none. On the other side, we see 2die primary ships often not do anything without heavy modding, while 3die ships tend to always get 1 through on average even against super agile ships (speaking raw agility here do not bring up soontir...).

I feel this is why majority of the "medium" ships, which xwings technically fall under, are so lousy. The difference between the budget idiot and the top tier pilot is literally ONE digit in most cases, so wheres the medium guys at?

not even just mathematically sound.

In the movies a single xwing takes out tie after tie after tie. They have vastly superior guns, but in game theyre only +1 die. Had they been +2 it probably would break the game but i dont think having slightly more accurate than normal 3die would be gamebreaking and that would give them that edge over tie fighters.

I've often wondered if they would have more design space if, at the start of the game, they had doubled all of the stats (i.e. TIE Fighters at 4/6/6/0, XWings at 6/4/6/4). That way they would have more room in between ships.

thats one of the issues with using low numbers. Its really hard to justify increasing the stat, but the model feels underwhelming without it.

The most balanced tabletop game ive seen thats still a dice game is Warzone because its based on a D20. Speaking purely on the stats here since it has some REALLY f'ing bad core rules that ruin the game anyway. Everything has high numbers, with 12 being the average for most stats and 15 being pretty dang good and 18 being WOW HES A MONSTER (max 19, cant be 20). The 1pt stat difference between some of the troops were trivial most of the time, but still could save your bacon. Quite a few times i had my Commandos take a hit and i'd roll a 7 after mathing the attack vs my 12 armor, which was the max i needed. if that same attack hit my Mourning Wolves, which were armor 11, i would have lost a model. Insanely small difference but it still matters.

A single number in Xwing can be gamebreaking because of the scale they use for those numbers. We see 2agility ships take full damage from attacks all the time, but somehow 3agility ships ***** by with 1 hit or none. On the other side, we see 2die primary ships often not do anything without heavy modding, while 3die ships tend to always get 1 through on average even against super agile ships (speaking raw agility here do not bring up soontir...).

I feel this is why majority of the "medium" ships, which xwings technically fall under, are so lousy. The difference between the budget idiot and the top tier pilot is literally ONE digit in most cases, so wheres the medium guys at?

Good points. Perhaps the ubiquity of the Focus action is a problem here, partly it's the Focus that scales up in value with more dice and create's problems, but wouldn't it be a neat midpoint if, say, the lowest level generics cost less but couldn't Focus, then the mid-tier generics got a Focus along with their extra PS, then the next tier got an EPT as well.

10pt Academy Pilots with no Focus vs 13pt Obsidian Squadron that can Focus... that's an interesting choice.

Palp Aces can still be powerful with Yorr and Palp, just Palps will have to be in the battle more then hiding out so that Yorr can take the stress from aces.

That's basically the thing.

It's not that this means Soontir IS OVER...it just means you now can't float his stress from turn to turn, the way you usually do. I'm not sure Yorr would be a great choice for Soontir, though, as it prevents him from getting his focus...but maybe Soontir flying alongside Vader sporting 'Wingman' instead of one of his usual EPTs. Yorr certainly works fine for all the other PtL ace lists, of course.

I do think Soontir's time is over, the amount of efficiency lost is probably irreplacable. Although. I'm going to try hte "don't stress" idea and see how it turns out. Thanks for the reminder.

Also, yeah, maybe trying Yorr. But honestly, the ideal build now is over 100 points. which... probably should be the case for palp aces, from a balance perspective

For a no-stress Interceptor, why not Carnor?

People would probably rather choose a ship other than an Interceptor for Palp Aces now. Carnor isn't characterized with living forever like Soontir is, and doesnt have the raw action efficiency that Soontir has either. Vader, Omega Leader, Vessery, and so on will likely be the big picks.

I don't think that PTL Soontir is going to be pushed out of the meta because of Slicer Tools. They level the playing field against him for certain types of squads but it would surprise me if they will be common enough in significant numbers to make bringing Soontir a bad choice.

Slicer Tools is a good card because it's cheap. It's not Soontir Kryptonite. If it gives you a little bit of an edge against squads that are normally a bad match-up it earns its points. If it were two or three points, I think you'd see a lot less enthusiasm for it.

You're right, its not Soontir Kryptonite. One of these in a list isn't a huge threat, but it could be dangerous in a large group. But even so, it has become a near auto include in Scum lists, because aces threaten most of the better Scum builds. Consider its competitive price and the fact that it fills a slot where there are basically no really competitive options. If it was a crew member, you wouldn't see it much. Since it is an Illicit, you'll see it everywhere, because most lists can afford to throw a point at it.

Thats another valid reason for medium ships feeling out of place. Focus. Good point.

edit: yaknow, i might playtest this tonight. Find an opponent willing to double the numbers and see how it plays out and i'll make sure to bring a small, medium, and large ship. Cracken + Wedge + either Dash or Chewie comes to mind off the top of my head. Double range effects too

Palp Aces can still be powerful with Yorr and Palp, just Palps will have to be in the battle more then hiding out so that Yorr can take the stress from aces.

That's basically the thing.

It's not that this means Soontir IS OVER...it just means you now can't float his stress from turn to turn, the way you usually do. I'm not sure Yorr would be a great choice for Soontir, though, as it prevents him from getting his focus...but maybe Soontir flying alongside Vader sporting 'Wingman' instead of one of his usual EPTs. Yorr certainly works fine for all the other PtL ace lists, of course.

I do think Soontir's time is over, the amount of efficiency lost is probably irreplacable. Although. I'm going to try hte "don't stress" idea and see how it turns out. Thanks for the reminder.

Also, yeah, maybe trying Yorr. But honestly, the ideal build now is over 100 points. which... probably should be the case for palp aces, from a balance perspective

For a no-stress Interceptor, why not Carnor?

People would probably rather choose a ship other than an Interceptor for Palp Aces now. Carnor isn't characterized with living forever like Soontir is, and doesnt have the raw action efficiency that Soontir has either. Vader, Omega Leader, Vessery, and so on will likely be the big picks.

I don't think that PTL Soontir is going to be pushed out of the meta because of Slicer Tools. They level the playing field against him for certain types of squads but it would surprise me if they will be common enough in significant numbers to make bringing Soontir a bad choice.

Slicer Tools is a good card because it's cheap. It's not Soontir Kryptonite. If it gives you a little bit of an edge against squads that are normally a bad match-up it earns its points. If it were two or three points, I think you'd see a lot less enthusiasm for it.

You're right, its not Soontir Kryptonite. One of these in a list isn't a huge threat, but it could be dangerous in a large group. But even so, it has become a near auto include in Scum lists, because aces threaten most of the better Scum builds. Consider its competitive price and the fact that it fills a slot where there are basically no really competitive options. If it was a crew member, you wouldn't see it much. Since it is an Illicit, you'll see it everywhere, because most lists can afford to throw a point at it.

Glitterstim is awesome on a lot of ships. Inertial Dampeners can be great. On a Jumpmaster or YV-666 Feedback Array is probably a better choice than Slicer Tools. I agree that a lot of Scum lists may find a point and a slot to toss one of these into. Some will find a way to fit in two. Unless you are building a list around Slicer Tool spam, it's unlikely that you'll get 3 or more in a squad.

I know that in the squads that I use most frequently, I'd have problems finding some fat to cut to fit in one of these.

Palp Aces can still be powerful with Yorr and Palp, just Palps will have to be in the battle more then hiding out so that Yorr can take the stress from aces.

That's basically the thing.

It's not that this means Soontir IS OVER...it just means you now can't float his stress from turn to turn, the way you usually do. I'm not sure Yorr would be a great choice for Soontir, though, as it prevents him from getting his focus...but maybe Soontir flying alongside Vader sporting 'Wingman' instead of one of his usual EPTs. Yorr certainly works fine for all the other PtL ace lists, of course.

I do think Soontir's time is over, the amount of efficiency lost is probably irreplacable. Although. I'm going to try hte "don't stress" idea and see how it turns out. Thanks for the reminder.

Also, yeah, maybe trying Yorr. But honestly, the ideal build now is over 100 points. which... probably should be the case for palp aces, from a balance perspective

For a no-stress Interceptor, why not Carnor?

People would probably rather choose a ship other than an Interceptor for Palp Aces now. Carnor isn't characterized with living forever like Soontir is, and doesnt have the raw action efficiency that Soontir has either. Vader, Omega Leader, Vessery, and so on will likely be the big picks.

I don't think that PTL Soontir is going to be pushed out of the meta because of Slicer Tools. They level the playing field against him for certain types of squads but it would surprise me if they will be common enough in significant numbers to make bringing Soontir a bad choice.

Slicer Tools is a good card because it's cheap. It's not Soontir Kryptonite. If it gives you a little bit of an edge against squads that are normally a bad match-up it earns its points. If it were two or three points, I think you'd see a lot less enthusiasm for it.

You're right, its not Soontir Kryptonite. One of these in a list isn't a huge threat, but it could be dangerous in a large group. But even so, it has become a near auto include in Scum lists, because aces threaten most of the better Scum builds. Consider its competitive price and the fact that it fills a slot where there are basically no really competitive options. If it was a crew member, you wouldn't see it much. Since it is an Illicit, you'll see it everywhere, because most lists can afford to throw a point at it.

Glitterstim is awesome on a lot of ships. Inertial Dampeners can be great. On a Jumpmaster or YV-666 Feedback Array is probably a better choice than Slicer Tools. I agree that a lot of Scum lists may find a point and a slot to toss one of these into. Some will find a way to fit in two. Unless you are building a list around Slicer Tool spam, it's unlikely that you'll get 3 or more in a squad.

I know that in the squads that I use most frequently, I'd have problems finding some fat to cut to fit in one of these.

That's what I meant. It's not a huge threat because most lists will have it, but will only have one. The most popular Illicit is Glitterstim, which is great for durability, or Feedback Array, which fulfills basically the same purpose without the Ion penalty. It will be everywhere because its 1 point, but that will be the most common use. You'll have to commit to using a lot to getting a lot of them in a list, so most lists will have one but only one.

I think the most natural home for Slicer is probably Brobots. Unless the Shadowcaster explodes in popularity I doubt you'll see many Slicers at the top end of tournaments.

I will be practicing with the below list all weekend...

I still wanna know what that guy said the HotR T-70 pilot's abilities were.

He just hinted that they were good at jousting. I WANNA KNOW WHAT THEY ARE. I'VE BEEN WAITING 80 YEARS. MY CHILDREN THAT I DONT EVEN HAVE, HAVE MOVED OUT OF MY LIFE, HAD A FAMILY, AND DIED. But i'm still here. Waiting. Waiting for news about HotR.

Right, and Fel was not reflected in the films.

I'm not arguing against his inclusion in the game. I'm saying arguing for broken mechanics because it was reflected in the films is silly, or making incorrect statements like Rebels never took on Imperials straight up to argue for bad mechanics is silly.

Rebels were vastly superior pilots in the films. Imperials used swarm tactics in the films to gain an advantage. I guarantee most Imperial players wouldn't be happy if the game were accurate to the films.

Swarm players are absolutely fine with that too. Heck, Swarm players rip through a lot of rebel ace lists without any problem. *g*

And yeah, I think a 4 attack dice X-Wing would have been the better choice. The bad dial becomes a lot more acceptable. It not like the 4 dice from dash or other hlc carriers brakes the game. The issue here is that FFG wanted to have a core set with 1 X-Wing and two TIE-Fighter. Something cheap to start the game and thus the X-Wing suffered on the long-term.

Ventress just got very scary. Ability+Tactician+Slicer. Yes please. PLEASE!!!!!

^^I have been playing around with a build for the Shadow Caster and ig88b that looks really good on paper. We will see how it functions on the board.

On a side note, i have been running BMST on my HLC bots list all weekend. They are in one word...AWESOME!!!!!

I'm not sure I'd drop Feedback Array from my Mindlink Brobots squad. That would be: IG-88B & D, Mindlink, FCS, HLC, Feedback, Autothrusters, IG-2000 on both.

It saves me health and goes out to range 2, but I just can't deal with the coin flip. If it was hits crits and focuses I'd change, but not with a coin flip.

Only builds I'm considering is a Bumpmaster with BMST, Saboteur, and Experimental Interface alongside 2 U-Boats, and 8 PS 1 Scum Z-95's and 4x BMST. Perhaps 3x BMST and a Thread Tracer, IDK.

I'm not sure I'd drop Feedback Array from my Mindlink Brobots squad. That would be: IG-88B & D, Mindlink, FCS, HLC, Feedback, Autothrusters, IG-2000 on both.

It saves me health and goes out to range 2, but I just can't deal with the coin flip. If it was hits crits and focuses I'd change, but not with a coin flip.

Only builds I'm considering is a Bumpmaster with BMST, Saboteur, and Experimental Interface alongside 2 U-Boats, and 8 PS 1 Scum Z-95's and 4x BMST. Perhaps 3x BMST and a Thread Tracer, IDK.

Even if you dont ever get it off, it makes aces and low hull ship be very careful with their action economy, and makes them rethink their strategy as a whole the entire matchup. That is worth 2 points (one on each bot) easily. stress on a ship within range of both bots, gives a 75% of giving it damage.

In about two dozen matchups over the weekend i was undefeated, able to take out 4 two hull ships with just the slicers over the course, and each round put at least one hull hit on a ship.

On average i would say your likely to get two-four chances for rolls per match (obviously dependent on the list your facing.) but the value here is in making your opponent be very cautious with stress on low hull ships.

I killed some dudes 40 something point e-wing in two rounds with BMST in the first match i played at the FLGS yesterday. After that match, every single person that came to the table was terrified of BMST.

Here was my list.

Gamma Squadron with Homing Missiles, Extra Munitions, Guidance Chips or LRS. Four of these.

As hesitant as I am to agree with PGS on anything to do with hating a meta list it would indeed be a better world if the spam ordnance carriers alpha strike list was... well, actual bombers rather than a scout craft.

Yep.

I think you don't spam them the same way you can with Jumps, though. You probably take 2 Bombers and something else to mop up what's left. Triple Jumps don't win the game on first round of firing but they get far enough ahead that their turning circle and turrets can mop up what's left. 4 Bombers will do the first bit but struggle to clean up, so I think you'd need to fly a mixture. Maybe Bombers and Procket TAPS.

4 Bombers can win against aces, but it is a game of patience.

Also, aces really hate 4 gamma veterans with Crackshot. 2 Vets with EM, chips and choice of missile (I prefer proton torps) + 2 Vets with LRS and a single missile (preferably concussion/homing, as they help with no chips), all with crackshot, can deal a lot of pain.

I have never seen bombers do well vs anything.

These are so great against soontir he is always stressed, all you have to do is get in range 2 after you move, so he can't boost or Berle roll away. Then he doesn't get his 3 agility, autothrusters, focus/evade, or his palp to protect him.

4 Bombers can win against aces, but it is a game of patience.

I can attest to this (assuming that by "aces" you don't exclusively mean Imperial Aces, but any high PS small-ship pilot).

Played 3 Gammas and a Jonus-shuttle against Horn, Farrell and Salm over the weekend.

Managed to remove Salm, then Farrell whilst keeping my squad intact (though only just barely in the case of Jonus) but game went to time shortly after the Captain finally succumbed to pursuit.

Even when it was 4-on-1, I couldn't get more that one shot on Horn and generally had half the squad stressed - but it was fun.

I don't get these people that complain about "Ace-wing" - in a game that pays homage to the art of dog-fighting, Aces should do exactly what they do! I find it as exciting a challenge to try and pin them down as I will when I get around to flying Ace-like lists myself (closest I've been so far is Countess von Ryad-hoffen and her flying red circus).

not to flan the flames of hell, but the new upsilon shuttle has coordinate... which means with an unstressed soontir, you can now

coordinate him at PS2-6 into a boost to avoid being blocked, evade, gain focus and stress. Wipe it off with his green move. Then focus or BR again. No stress!

(Or for sickness, PTL again for 6 actions in a turn.)

This does though change Soontir from using actions as post movement adjustment, and requires a little more planning. Also, you ahve to have the Upsilon shuttle move into R1-2. While keep the Upsilon shuttles front arc relevant, as you pay so much for it.

This may be better utilized as like a PS4 or 5 or 6, as you can now see where most hte generics have gone, and reposition to avoid blocking.

Thankfully, PTL is once per turn...