I have been with the Warhammer universe for far more than a decade now (started 1993 with the tabletop game), and I also have to say that I find it annoying... According to what Rick Priestly (and he is the inventor of Warhammer after all...) once said when I visited him in Nottingham a Wardancer isn't simply being called to it by young years. A wardancer (and I think this applies to Swordmasters as well) is a renown warrior that has already had tons of experience and lateron has been invited by the master of the wardancers to join them. After that he starts traininng and only ever leaves his training grounds after being finished with it.

For the roleplay this means one thing: a Wardancer, no matter if finished or left before being done with training, is someone you should fear, because to even be accepted into the wardancers he has to be elite. So... I don't think Wardancers (or Swordmasters) should be basic, I am not even sure if those should be Advanced careers... I think they should be master careers, on the same level as a lector or arch-lector in magic terms and should be strictly granted by GM only...

This game brings such a great opportunity to fit into the Warhammer universe and make for a cool experience, it makes me really sad to see that they are starting to mess this up with things like that.

Cheers

Lucifer

PrinceLucifer said:

Glad to see somebody in the community knows what the hell I'm talking about! It absolutely amazes me how many people are ok with the idea of these guys being basic careers. Get alot of "well who knows how good the scribe is with a sword..don't judge a book by it's cover...he could be just as good as a wardancer in a fight...blah blah blah." Listen...if I was a betting man and I put a Librarian against a UFC fighter...I would expect the UFC guy to beat the living **** out of the Librarian. None of this, "don't judge the Librarian you don't know what he's been through or what experiences he's had in his life" crap. The POINT is you KNOW the UFC fighter can kick some serious ass and knows how to fight..cause that's what he's all about.

If a group of poachers go into Loren Forest and get ambushed by a small band of Waywatchers, the poachers should be in the mind frame of 'oh no we are in serious trouble!' before they get their asses handed to them. Not "eh, just a few Waywatchers, I've had some experience in scouting before so we should be ok", then give those elves all they could handle. I can't stress this enough (especially for the people new to warhammer) Waywatchers, Wardancers, and Swordmasters are not your typical basic wet behind the ears elf! C'mon FFG teach the newbs some warhammer lore here! It's called "flavor".

What I find strange, considering the amount of warhammer knowledge and experience in these communities, is nobody really cares. Waywatchers, Wardancers, and Swordmasters are now just basic, intro level beginer elves who don't know anymore about their craft that any other guy off the street would know. 30 years of what has been told to us in previous warhammer supplements/books just went out the window and most people are like "so, its just some silly warhammer lore...who cares? I can start as a Wardancer..yeah!" I know it's just a game but I would figure the warhammer crowd, who are very passionate about the Old World and love it because of it's lore, would have been all over this! That's like this new warhammer game coming out and they change the history saying Sigmar never existed it was really Karl Franz who united the empire and its tribes and allied with the dwarves. People would be causing riots in front of FFG!

One other note about this. People can say "well if it bothers you so much just make them advanced careers." As a previous poster stated earlier..it doesn't work that way. It's actually a hindrance to make Swordmaster, or Wardancer an advanced career in certain ways because of card choice/selection options. A guy who starts as one will have more options than a guy who advances to one.

Magnus the Pious said:

Thats its meta-gaming, despise your players could Know the skills through the caeer card, the chacters should be afraid of thos waywatchers elfs that met on AThel Loren wood...

Do any changes really need to be made to change them to Advanced?

Just house rule it.

Yes, I am of the opinion that if it is really a big deal for you, to pull the older editions elf careers and then make the sword masters etc... advanced careers.

This is why I don't have a problem with them being starting careers. The starting career is just what you were doing before you became an adventurer. It's fluffy to presume that a Swordmaster spent 100 years in training before he ended up in the Old World. Coming up with the back story of how and why he is here and has joined this band of adventurers is part of the fun of creating that starting character. A player who begins as a Swordmaster and spends 3 creation points to take 4 Way of the Sword action cards is going to be more than capable against NPC soldiers and I daresay, outshine his Rat Catcher buddy in a fight as well. I mean, have you looked at the Way of the Sword cards? One is like a turbo Dodge, another let's you recover your other active defenses more quickly, and another let's you recharge other Way of the Sword actions faster. You can engage an enemy at close range, hit him, and bounce back out of engagement without spending any maneuvers, and then get bonuses on all future actions (while the card is recharging). You can even throw your big ass sword and let's not forget that the Sword of Hoeth is pretty figgin' awesome by itself, adding a Fortune die to all attacks and letting you draw two cards and pick which one to use whenever you do a crit. Final Stroke of the Master, while one <P> more difficult to execute is pretty devastating, but with bonuses from other action cards, the Sword itself, and a Fortune Point or two thrown in, it shouldn't be too hard to get it off. By the time he takes the other 3 Way of the Sword action cards as advances and has all 7, he's going to be pretty bad ass. I don't think he's got to worry about having his ass handed to him by a Scribe that gets up in his face either (to borrow the UFC fighter vs. librarian example).

Now I'm assuming that since Swordmaster is a trait, that there will be advanced career level(s) for him to progress into with even more Way of the Sword actions for him to take at some point. We don't know yet when that will be and anyone starting a Swordmaster in a campaign now might be stuck changing to another basic career while waiting for expansion material to be released. This can easily be explained by the fluff however. He just has to take whatever opportunities are presented to him given his current circumstances.

Contrast this with those that want to make this an advanced career to start with. So my High Elf Envoy decides he want to become a Swordmaster. Turning to his companions he says, "Nice knowing you guys, but I've decided to return to Ulthuan to become a Swordmaster. I'll come back and look you up after I complete my training, that is if any of you are still alive in 100 years." I think it is much more tricky to come up with a fluffy explanation of how an existing character becomes a Swordmaster than it is for a starting character. Those that are concerned about the Swordmaster basic career not lining up with the fluff, please explain the fluffy way you will manage a career change into this career.

Swordmaster to Soldier, Mercenary, Envoy or Agent all make perfect sense within the development of a character depending on the campaign. I know there are those that will argue that 'Soldier' is a step down from 'Swordmaster' but only if you assume that your High Elf is actually going to become a Reikland Halberdier. The new simply career reflects the Swordmaster developing his/her military skill and expertise further (the Swordmaster is already a Soldier).

Ok I guess I'm making too big of a deal about this. I am obviously in the minority about this subject. I'll just house rule it and hope it all works out. My point was I feel I shouldn't have to. The writers of FFG should have done a little more research IMO before just throwing those careers out in to the fold. Guess I was hoping for a little more support in all my complaining here from the 'hardcore' warhammer folk but I am defenitely a dying breed. I mean I still picture Wardancers with mohawks, now they are depicted as chicks with long flowing hair and braids. If a new person unfamiliar with warhammer played this they would have no knowledge that they used to have mohawks . Pointless tidbit I know.

I need to get in the mindframe that this is a new Warhammer (and a REAL FUN one too!) made for a newer younger crowd. Out with the old in with the new. Writers should have the flexability to write whatever they want and not be hamstrung by previous lore from older warhammer stuff (no matter how much that bothers me!).

So sorry for all my bitchin' here...Long Live Warhammer!

Magnus, even if you house rule it, I'd still like to hear how you will reconcile career transition into these careers with the fluff. I'm having a harder time allowing these careers after chargen for the same fluff reasons you are using as a rationale to dismiss them as basic careers.

mac40k said:

mac40k said:

Concerning the last paragraph. I would never suggest havin a pc leave for a hundred years. I would have hoped that Swordmaster (or waywatcher,wardancer etc.) would have had a basic career path to start with. Clerics of Sigmar aren't blessing/prayer throwing warhammer wielding badasses to start. They are initiates 1st, you have to work and earn it to become a higher level priest. Same thing here. I just thought the more sensible way of approaching this would be to have a starting career (initiate swordmaster for example) thats pretty much trained but highly inexperienced and not 100% developed. Still a badass in a sense but just hasn't earned the title/recognition of a Swordmaster yet. Then progress into advanced careers so when he does reach Swordmaster...he's a real badass, deadly as sin, don't look at him the wrong way, SWORDMASTER . You don't always have to get everything you want right off the bat. I like working my way up to stuff..i love that sense of accomplishment. I always felt that in Warhammer nothing was given and everything was earned..through blood and sacrifice. IMHO.

Magnus the Pious said:

So your problem isn't the career per se, it's with the title? The character at chargen isn't 100% developed and probably doesn't deserve the title until they complete the career, which by the rules they must do. I don't have a problem looking at the Basic career as the equivalent of Initiate because I assume that advanced versions of the career are forthcoming because Swordmaster is also a trait. Since we don't know what the titles of those will be yet, you can just change the name of the basic career to Swordmaster trainee if you like.

And I'd still like to hear how you plan to address PCs moving into these careers in game.

mac40k said:

Thought I just did?

Magnus the Pious said:

No, all you said was that you wouldn't suggest that a PC had to leave for 100 years. How would you handle it? I still don't see that addressed by your previous post. All you did was go on to say that you wished they had an earlier, more basic career and had to work up to Swordmaster. Okay, so if you house rule it to make Swordmaster an advanced career, how will PCs in your game become one in game? What are they required to do? Seek out another Swordmaster in the Empire as a mentor? How long will their training take? Where and how will they acquire the Sword of Hoeth? As I said, I really want to know because I'm having a hard time justifying someone becoming a Swordmaster if they don't start as one.

mac40k said:

As far as house ruling it since you put me on the spot Mac. Well if a player states he wants to become a Swordmaster for example, he'd have to state that fact at character creation. I would never allow any career to hop over to one at a whim (like your Envoy example). In my campaign being a swordmaster is a lifetime goal not something you hop on to after 10 sessions and you just want to beef up your character. So, using my earlier example of having an "initiate" level swordmaster I would either ...A) Take the soldier career and tweek him into the initiate swordmaster career (give him the sword but limit the number of cards accessable?) then jump into Swordmaster or...B) Just rename the Swordmaster "Initiate" Swordmaster.

Problem with B is I'm holding alot of stock in hoping that FFG puts out more advanced careers in the immediate future for the Swordmaster, which I don't have a real good feeling about. From what I gather I don't see anything of the like from their "hints" of upcoming products (unless theres some coming in the GM pack..if thats what it is). Then, when the new advanced career does comes out (say Blademaster for example) I would rename that one Swordmaster.

I'm not 100% sure what I'm going to do yet, I'm still thinking on it. If you have any suggestions I'd love to hear them.

Pardon me if this is out of line, since I'm a WFRG newbie..

I've been concerned about this whole Sword Master, Iron Breaker thing since I read about it on the forums. That a core principal of the older games wasn't being observed. I suppose it didn't bother me a lot, but it kind of concerned me a little.

However, I just got my Adventurer's Toolkit today and was looking it over. Forgive me if this has already been brought up previously:

Re: Ironbreakers and Swordmasters:

These careers require a high level of commitment. Once a character starts one of these careers, he cannot enter another career until this career has been completed - it would be a breach of honour too great for a Dwarf or High Elf to bear.

That's a quote from the rules enclosed in the kit. That does at least suggest to me that FFG does recognize that these classes are somewhat special and distinctive. Again, my regrets if that has been brought up before.

Magnus the Pious said:

Not exactly, bofore chaos strorm there wasnt anyway tahta ypu could seea High elf or Wood Elf at imperial cities or towns, now with the new threat of chaos, you can seean initiate sword master o war dancer adventuring, because both Ulthuan and Athel Loren had chnged their agendeas with outside world, so yes it´s a new stablishement, but doesnt mena that it´s a new Warhammer with no place to those thta know the Lore and Background of this seting.

onb tihs time Ulthuan send the initiates sword masters to tyhe old world keeping for it defense the elite, and the same goes for wardancers and Athel Loren, so the basic Careers arent the elite of the lore, and that i dont see that broke with the old lore, only thta had changes the priorities of Ulthuan Nad Athel Loren.

Watcher: I can actually see exactly one instance where switching out of the Ironbreaker career would work, and that's if the Dwarf felt compelled to take up the path of the Slayer due to some grave dishonour. If, in the game I'll be running, one of my players ends up doing that, I'd let them. Then again, Slayer isn't a "class" to level into. It's the way a Dwarf commits suicide.

Just from this discussion (don't have the AT yet, as all of the stores in my area were sold out), I'm of the mind that completing the career is what gets you to the point where the units in WHFB with the same name are. You start out as someone just barely out of training.

Lyinar said:

I hear ya. Your Dwarf example makes good sense. I mentioned that only because there seems to be a pushback about having those specific careers be basic careers. I thought the requirement that you have to complete them was a good compromise, at least signifying that they were significant to those specific cultures.

Of course, what comes after is a concern. Reviewing the Shifting Shadows PDF, it seems like the second product will be an expansion of some kind. Maybe we'll know what comes after one has completed the Sword Master career then..

IMO, the toolkit class that is outrageously overpowered is the Ratcatcher. SBVD is the ****. Seriously though, I don't think Wardancers, Swordmasters, etc. are a real problem as a basic class. If you are the GM you can just tell your group that you want to play an everyone-starts-as-a-peasant kind of campaign where wondrous things happen to the most ordinary of people and just pull out everything that you think doesn't match the tone of the kind of campaign you want to run, and maybe house rule some limits to starting characteristics. However, if you use the Swordmaster and the waywatcher and a trollslayer and a bright wizard all in the same party you are running a different kind of campaign, a champions-from-every-corner-of-the-old-world-unite-against-epic-evil campaign. Which is also fun. You start crazy powerful and just kind of hope you survive the insane demons that get thrown at you. All I am trying to say is that just because the Gambler and the Ironbreaker might not start out at the same power level (which is an arguable point in the first place), this does not mean that they shouldn't both be basic classes. What is important is the story and how the party fits together and the tone of the game that the players and the GM want to establish.

jlok said:

Well that is one of the big things in warhammer, not everyone is created equal, the roadwarden has a horse, the Sword Master a big nasty sword and the commoner has some raggedy old cloths and the servant has even less, its been that way since v1 and is I'm one of the strengths of the game, it gives it a feel and I love that.

it is never written that once a career is fully completed you cant just refesh it and start it again, only that a career does not refresh until it is completed

sword master has 5 skills(all basic) and can only take 3 per rank(not including creation) so with 15 skill advances(or 11) that is 5 ranks in sword master till he becomes fully trained. the tower also trains in art, tactics, history and general education so there are pleanty of advanced skills needed to fully play a sword master that under went his full time at the tower

so the sword master has just started his training and sent as an envoy to the empire on "work placement" gets stranded and becomes an adventurer (if you want a 300 year old blademaster start at a higher rank or tell your players to piss off)

the stats in this game are quite limited so strength 4 weapon skill trained is much greater than strength 3 untrained for starting characters so a young elf that did very little for his first 30 odd years then paided his way into the tower may only have stats that high

it is reasonable that a sword master gets to str6(or 7/8) fortune5 weapon skill 3 with a conservative stance 8 deep(not sure why and good luck with delay)

making your back story fit is more important than trying to make the adventure fit your back story. if your in ulthan and playing as a group of high elfs then down time is spent at the tower and you could be a group sent of for some practical training. what would a blademaster be doing in the empire by himself anyway. if he had not practiced his art for 100 years you could kyle katarn it and make him build his skills back up

as for the action card we have an offical rule and why cant a 35 year human with the drive to learn as fast as he can and natural talent become as skilled as a lazy elf that has only just taken up the training

bretonnian knight instead of iron breaker

three musketer style sword master from the empire

arraby assasin style wardancer

kelsiv bezerker… starting to make up thing but you get my point

rename the cards in your head it is a rule set not a book of laws(take a page form savage worlds)

if your the gm you set the style of game and how epic or gritty it is just make your group happy, give them a good challange reward the players the role play in there character build aswell as in game(give the sneaky asasin that cool dagger with crit 2 perm weaking effect he wanted..he will die pretty soon anyway) dont reward metagaming or even make life hard for them. or if everyone in your group is doing it let them and up the challange as long as fun is had

final stroke with the hoeth Gsword and str 6 can generate max of 26 damage +crits(1 for CR2, 1 for 2 boons, 2ish for spare comets) +comet effect. so 29 damage of which 5 are crits. with perfect situation just enough to drop a basic giant(8 soak 22 wounds) in one massive stroke (2 hammers 4 boons 3 comets needed and to have popped autum/water/summer and speed to have 13 tokens on your cards) choas giant fully armoured……

did not see how old this thread was but not deleting this chunk of writting….sorry

wheatiess said:

Yes it does. It says exaclty that….

…In fact, once a character has fully completed a career—all the advances and the dedication bonus have been taken—that career has nothing more to offer him. It is time for a transition into a new career that offers new opportunities

Players Guide Pg 46

…Jumping back and forth into the same career does not refresh the advancement options.

Players Guide Pg 47

You can fix the whole mess by just making them advanced careers.

or

Ironbreaker can be fixed by just making it gromril scale until he reaches Ironshield (and then earns his plate)

Swordmaster can be fixed by not allowing min-maxing of the swordmaster action cards right away.

Wardancers and waywatchers aren't broken compared to the other two (unless you get somebody who just loves to go overboard..but that's the case with the Slayer as well). The wardancer, only slightly less than the Slayer, is especially an incredibly shallow, boring career choice imho anyways.

I agree that it's not terrible that the careers don't "feel" balanced, but the above's go way beyond being "not balanced." Then the GM is forced to have to cater every scenario the whim of the broken character so he doesn't get a tpk on the people who chose to play a reasonable roleplaying career instead..or worse, simply having a superman in the party who solves all the world's problems while the "lesser" characters sit by and chitter-chatter to themselves.

jh

Well, in my campaign, The waywatcher started as a scout (renamed Kithband warrior) and will go to Waywatcher and then Ghost Walker (that I´m creating, but will be something like a assassin/marksman/ranger from hell).The Ironbreaker started as a Soldier (renamed Tunnel Warrior- I dont think that Miner was a tunnel warrior) and will go to ironbreaker-shieldbreaker-ironbeard when he get his family armor that was lost when his karak turned like a Dwarf fortress f*cked game. intead of basic, both careers are intermediate, and I pushed the *breakers one step ahead inserting talent slots when needed.

Until now, no problems.