…Jumping back and forth into the same career does not refresh the advancement options.

a character returning to a previous career he had not completed picks up right where he left off. jumping back and forth into the same career does not refresh the advancement options.

changes the meaing a bit when the whole thing is read

"finally it is important in the case a character ever dicides to revist a career they previously played."

it would seem to me that if a career is fully completed it does refesh the wording is to stop humans leaving after 4 advances to reset avalible advances like wounds or fourtune points. eg wizard taking base four advances 2 fourtune in WP and leaving to new character coming back and getting 2 more fourtune in WP

i see no reason that once completed a player could not repeat a career as there is no new ability to be had, not that a sword is an ability anyway(when a great sword with vicious is better)

im not strong for or against anyway poeple play it but dont see it as game breaking and is the way i read it. does not matter to our group much as we are all human

anyway look at Yepesnopes tag line he has made some awsome careers that solve this issue.

and flogging a dead horse but its roleplay not a competitive game so if your player arnt miffed just do it

I didn't bother to read, so I don't know if this was brought up, but I'm pretty sure in the case of Wardancers, Waywatchers, and Swordmasters, there's a plan to introduce more advanced versions of that class. Ironbreakers got that in the form of Ironbreakers and then Ironbeards in the Black Fire Pass expansion, both of which have the special Ironbreaker trait. All three of the classes (Wardancers, Waywatchers, and Swordmasters) have specialized traits to their name as well. Whenever Fantasy Flight Games decides to expand upon the Elf classes in some Elf expansion, you can be sure that there WILL be a development there with more advanced Dancers, Watchers, and Swordmasters. For the moment, you're stuck, but they definitely have these classes planned for future development.

Wheatiess, you are correct in that you can play the game how you want, that is this games greatest strengths, there are no rules that are written in stone. I didn't post the rules to be ****, just to point out some clear text of how the careers should work in as little text as possible (I personally prefer reading clear and concise text over word and verbose ones).

If you want something more verbose, then here goes… to blow away even more space dust on the quote at hand…

"When moving back into a previous career, the player should refer back to the character sheet he had during his previous career, making note of which advances had already been completed. In this regard, a character returning to a previous career he had not yet completed picks up right where he left off. Jumping back and forth into the same career does not refresh the advancement options."

Career = One Career Card = One Character Sheet

So, with every career, you are keeping a record of it with One Character Sheet. Going back to a Career (or sheet) that is not finished, allows you to finish it, but if it IS finished, than it IS finished, done deal. If you want to argue what the definition of what a "Career" is then you are really stretching the imagination, and should get a degree in law or something.

A lot of the carriers have logical progressive exits, why is that, do you think? Because there is more to learn and do in that field of study. If you allow someone to transit to the "Apprentice Wizard" Career 5 times then you could have an "Apprentice" that is more Powerful then a "Wizard Lord". That's not right.

I believe RoflQu is right. There are carrier exits in developement for Wardances, Waywatchers and Swordmasters. If you want to repeat those careers in the interm, no one can't fault you for that (I'm doing the same thing with a Waywatcher in my group). But, let's be clear. That is bending the rules.

LordBobman said:

Emphasis mine. There may be other references that clear it up, but at best this proves nothing, at worst it supports the contrary position - i.e. that you can restart a career if you have completed it. But as you say, the joy of the relatively crunch-light way WFRP is written is that it gives each GM the space to freely do as they wish.

I respectfully apologies, but I don't see the loop hole that allows restarting careers.

The sentenced that you emphasized is prefaced by "In this regard". The word "this" in "In this regard" pertains to the previous sentence where you grab the OLD career sheet and note which advancements have already been taken.

Then there is a Period.

Then there is NEW sentence say "Jumping back and forth into the same career does not refresh the advancement options".

To me this is cut and dry.

But the big question that I'm asking myself is that why is this bugging me so much.

:S

I allow PC's to re-take a career and add the word "master" to the front of their title. E.g. master ratcatcher. They gain the ability a second time. Why anyone on Slaanesh's tentacled' belly-button would ever do is would be beyond me..but it's an option in our game. The lack of new skill areas would be a serious hinderance to making an interesting character.

jh

LordBobman said:

It's completely irrelevant, but hey, I'm going to keep running with it. Just once though, only once

Breaking the paragraph down:
1. When moving back to a previous career, refer to that character sheet.
2. Check which advances you had already completed.
3. In regard of this earlier character sheet*, if you hadn't completed the career, you pick up exactly where you left off.
4. Moving in and out of a career does not refresh the advancement options.

In other words, reading this paragraph as if it were a process manual, it says nothing about what you should do if the career is complete - it only tells you what to do if it hasn't been completed. In effect, it only describes one side of the logical equation. IF career.complete=false THEN gosub "pick up where you left off". It needs an ELSE option.

That's not to say, of course, that it doesn't say somewhere else that each career can only be taken once. I'm only deconstructing a single paragraph today :-)

[EDIT] * NB: The meaning does not significantly change if this is "In regard of the advances you had already completed", which is the only other possible subject for the clause "in this regard"

What? Point 1,2 and 4 all happen when a career is revisited regardless of if it completed. Point 3 is just some extra bit that you should know if the career is not complete.

Analogies help sometimes, when rules discussions don't.

Career = Bag of Oreos

Completion = 10 Oreos allowed to be eaten from the bag

You pick up a Bag of Oreos and are told that you can eat 10 and only ten. SO, you pour a glass of milk and tuck in to the oreos. Then a friend calls and tells you that they just saw a hot neighbor skinny dipping in another neighbors pool. So, you drop the oreos and hoof it down the street to get a looksie.

Having missed the oportunity, you come trudging back to the house and see the bag of oreos on the floor and you either:

• Have eaten all 10 oreos and need to put the bag away.
• Sit down and finish out your remaining stack of the 10 oreos you pulled out with the milk.

If you have eaten all ten of your allotted oreos, your joy and oportunity with the remaining bag full of oreos has sailed away into the sunset. You could sit and stare at the bag. But you will not be allowed (by the rules at any rate) to eat another Oreo.

Unless you are at Jay's house and then you can empty that bag of cookies to your heart's content…and then he'll give you the Morbid Obesity condition and send the Skaven in to chase you down and cook your plump and juicy behind.

Emirikol said:

Not really an issue as the FAQ states on Trappings:

Characters do not start out with equipment listed under that career’s
typical trappings. They are merely guidelines and suggestions
to help the player visualise how the character fulfils the career. To
acquire those trappings, the player may wish to invest enough creation
points into Wealth to ensure he can afford the items listed.

As has been said before, I don't see being an "Iron Breaker" as the start of the career - but the definition of the character. i.e. A player takes Iron Breaker as their starting career > earns all the advances and then > becomes a Soldier (just for example). Still an Iron Breaker, just one with a different emphasis. UNLESS in game, the player has "renounced" being an Iron Breaker. As far as Trappings (like Gromril armour) that's earned in play.

YMMV.

Oh, you play it so that they have to earn their gromril armor through their career. That's smart as well. Technically they start with it, but your house rule would help delay their brokenness for a bit.

He still ends up practically immune to disease, immune to mutation, and immune to attacks.

I think he fits well in an all-fighter party, but as SOAK is the most powerful element in the game, so when soak goes overboard, the point of combat goes out the window.

Dwarfs are immune to about everything else, and the Ironbreaker's high WP solves the little problem of insanity. Give him a great weapon, reckless cleave and he's "nearly" broken in every way possible except being able to fly (and the engineers are working on that

In my game, I removed the immunity to corruption and disease resistance from all races. I did it not just to be a rat bastard GM (because my game will make the real world look like kittens), but to make sure that this game is ACTUALLY grim and gritty. A little nerfing goes a long ways

I ran the ironbreaker through Blackfire pass to see how broken they could be..guess who was the last one to die..long after the others…

jh

Callidon said:

Ah, but here's the issue. No-one has conclusively established yet that you're not allowed to sneak out when the GMs in the toilet to buy another packet of Oreos. (Other biscuit brands are available)

Acquitted!

jh

I could work with a rename to Waywatcher/Wardancer/Swordmaster Apprentice, and renaming the Ironbreaker the Shieldbreaker (from 2nd, I guess a sort of an Ironbreaker prospect). I'd give the Ironbreaker the Dwarf-Forged Armour instead of Gromril Armour (helps at least a bit with the soak and defense woes, but more importantly the lore aspect).

As a side note, I'd be inclined to let extra unused successes count as extra levels of Pierce, along with hindrances for wearing armour (permanent fatigue, misfortune dice as appropriate etc.)