Maybe because otherwise they would be unable to spawn on the entrance and so end up in front of the heroes and so blocking the heroes and starting closer to the monsters/objective/whatever.

Wow... so nobody really knows for sure?

Maybe because otherwise they would be unable to spawn on the entrance and so end up in front of the heroes and so blocking the heroes and starting closer to the monsters/objective/whatever.

Maybe, I guess, but I think there'd be better ways to solve it than to split the events up like they did, either way, and I have a hard time thinking it wasn't done for this very reason.

Wow... so nobody really knows for sure?

I mean, I'm pretty sure. Sure, I could be wrong, but I'm feeling pretty adamant about the issue that you can't perform an action with an "End of Turn" qualifier unless you actually qualify for it at the actual end of the turn.

If you want to make sure for sure-sure, I suggest sending a Rules Question to FFG.

Well I understand your point, but the fact is you resolve the deploy (completely) before the other trigger even happen. When you start to read the activate trigger, the figures do indeed exist on the map.

It's not like you trigger parts of the events at the same time.

(1) Deploy the militiamen, they exist on the board

(2) Activation trigger, the militiamen are on the board.

I really think they SHOULD not be able to move the first round, as the scenario is impossible enough as it is for the overlord, but nothing indicates they can't. The fact that they are not placed right away from start is most likely - as staded above - to make it less of a mess to place the heroes on the starting position.

[...]

It's not like you trigger parts of the events at the same time.

[...]

That's just it, you are . Both of them trigger at the End of Turn. When two (or more) events are in conflict, all you do is to choose the order in which they are resolved.

But you can't choose the order in which they are resolved, because only one of them can possibly play out at the end of the turn, because at the end of the last hero turn of the first round, the militiamen does not exist yet.

Immediately after placing the militiamen, the turn ends. There's no End of Turn to the end of the turn. The turn is over once the actions that triggered as the turn was ending are resolved, and as such, it is not possible to queue "end of turn" upon "end of turn".

I would say you can. Look at it this way Luckman.

Its the start off the OL turn. A group of monsters is on the map up to the group limit.

The reinforcements state that at the start of the turn he can reinforce a monster from that group.

So, following your line of thinking, since its currently the start of turn, and the condition to reinforce it is not currently met (all monsters are already on the map) there would be no way to reinforce it, right?

Wrong. The OL can play Call of the Ravens, another thing that triggers at the start of the OL turn, kill a monster from that group to summon the raven, then reinforce that monster.

So this is just the same. The active player decides to spawn the militiamen first, then the condition is met to activate them, so then he can decide to activate them.

Well I took my time to send a mail to FFG about it. We'll see what they say and I post the responce here. It might seem like a minor thing, but it is a HUGE deal on who will win this quest

[...]

Wrong. The OL can play Call of the Ravens, another thing that triggers at the start of the OL turn, kill a monster from that group to summon the raven, then reinforce that monster.

[...]

Where is this covered?

Also, I'd argue that start of turn and end of turn is inherently different. At the end of turn, the entirety of the turn is functionally over, whereas the start of a turn is continuous. Once a turn is over, you cannot take any more actions.

Well, it's been mentioned on this forum multiple times (though the search here is being a ***** it seems), the post got Zaltyre's seal of approval, and it's also on your precious wiki for example:

Because Call of the Raven is used "at the start of your turn", it will often be put into play at the same time that the Overlord gains reinforcements. By being clever with what order the Overlord takes these events, the Raven Flock can often be gotten "for free" by having the monster that dies for it's summoning be reinforced right afterwards

It's also mentioned here as another example.

I don't get your reasoning on why start of turn would be different from end of turn.

[...] (though the search here is being a ***** it seems) [...]

The search function of the board has always been horrible. The forum software is notoriously terrible for an official board. Always has been, even before the forum took it's current format.

[...] it's also on your precious wiki for example: [...]

Haha, oh wow, someone sure is salty. I have, like, 23 edits, get over yourself.

But as you're so keen to point out, there are errors on the wiki. This may (or may not) be one of them. Either way, it's annoying since the claim is less than substantiated.

That page is still great, though, in how it actually compiles relevant rules questions. That should be done for all the pages.

I don't get your reasoning on why start of turn would be different from end of turn.

Well that's hardly my fault.

The start of a turn lasts until you start the next step. If it's a Hero Turn, the second phase is Equip Items. If it's the Overlord's Turn, it's Monster Activation. It doesn't end until you say it ends.

End of Turn is not a discreet step or phase. End of turn is simply the end of the turn, and it ends as soon as all viable actions have been taken, with those actions being concurrent, but resolved in an order chosen by the active player.

Or at least, so I would argue.

It was obviously a joke I know it doesn't come across well on the forum, but just wanted to point that out

Anyway, the end of turn lasts until the next player takes his turn.

Note that it says at the end of turn, not after the end of his turn. So if you've done all your actions/exhausts/whatever, then as long as you don't flip your activation card, it's still the end of your turn.

If the quest or any other effect instructs things to be handled then, then it works the same way as it does with all the other things in Descent, the current player resolves them in the order that he sees fit. (As you say in your own post)

Meaning:

Phase 1: spawn militiamen

Phase 2: Activate militiamen

Phase 3: Profit

Ok guys our answer is in. Yes, you can deploy and activate the same time. This is the official responce:

Hi Marcus,

Because both instructions are given the same timing, the hero player who acted last decides the order of operation, which most likely means he will place and then activate. I believe this change was made to prevent a rare but problematic situation in which the heroes were unable to get off the Entrance during their first turn because at least 3 militia were directly in front of them, followed by 3 monsters from the open group. In this case, only a hero who can find a way to move or trace line of sight past these figure would be able to do anything.

Thanks for playing,

Nathan Hajek

Game Developer

Fantasy Flight Games

[email protected]

Well, at least that means that they did playtest it.

Got a bunch of more Questions, but don't really want to keep making new threads. So here goes:

1) To what extent can I, as an overlord, use an attack from a hero to attack?

Dark Charm: Play this card on a hero at the start of your turn. The hero tests willpower. If he passes, draw 1 overlord card. if he fails, you may perform a move or attack action with that hero as if he were one of your monsters this turn. You cannot force him to suffer exhaustion or use a potion, but you may force him to attack himself.

Obviously it prevent you from using exhaustion, but how about any other skills/items/abilities that can be added on without exhaustion costs?
Can I use mana weave, for example? "Item - other - After rolling attack dice, exhaust this card to add 1 surge to the results"?
Can I add effects from abilities like: "Rune mastery - when you attack with a rune weapon, you may exhaust this card to add 1 surge to the results"?

I guess you can't use special abilities that inclue a black arrow.

2) Can I target myself for an attack at any given time...? I'm thinking if it come to adding blast, and hitting everything adjacent to you.

3) This might be a simple one, but if I use a special ability sort of attack, like the one that add blast from the runemaster, I can surely add damage on that attack with skills like runic knowledge (starting skill) right? "While you have a magic or rune weapon equipped, each of your attacks gains: surge : suffer 1 exhaust to gain +2 damage"

4) Tomble burrowell, can he use his Heroic feat to appear anywhere..? Even passing doors (I'm guessing no, because I feel some quests would be awkwardly performed this way (thinking of the one with rune locked doors, but at the same time it feels like it should be allowed... not sure on the wording, since they mention "within" I keep thinking it's like counting spaces, and you need continuous adjacent spaces to count)

"Action: Remove your figure from the map and place a hero token in your space. At the start of your next turn, place your figure in any empty space within 4 spaces of your hero token"

5) Ghost armor can be used any number of times to cancel any number of wounds as long as you have exhaustion to pay right? "After you roll defence dice when attacked, use this card to add 1 shield to the results. Cost: 1 exhaustion"

6) The quest Death on the wing seem a bit odd with the victory conditions for the overlord... must you really put out 10(!?) boulders on the map?? "or, if all objective tokens are on the map at the same time"

There are a total of 10 objective tokens in the game box...

7) Look at the map for "a fat goblin". Look at the two map tiles with the water and the other being the farm.

The spot where these two connect, I'm wondering about the walls between these two.

[w] [w] [w] [w] [w] [w] <-- water

[ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ]

[ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ]

[_] [_] [ ] [ ] [_] [_]

[ ] [a] [a] [ ] <-- farm tile

Look at the squares I have marked with underlines "[_]"

I'm wondering if the walls that go between those make it so that you can't move/track line of sight to the squares adjacent above the two [a] squares? (if you stand on the left [a] square, can you make one movement step to the square up+left of it? If you stand on the right [a] square, can you make one move step up+right from it?

8) What's the deal with the quest "The cardinal's plight"?

There are 3 search icons in the quest book that say *. and one that say 3 and another 4.
Does this mean, that if there are 4 players, the specific search token the heroes can find is placed anywhere under the 5 different search tokens?

And, if you are only 2 players, it's under either one of the three search icons marked with a * symbol?

Or, does this mean, that if there are 4 players, you still only randomize where the specific search item is under one of the three search symbols marked with *, and leave normal search tokens for the ones marked with "3" and "4?

9) When I play overlord and there is a switch of encounters, do I need to keep track of what cards are in my deck, and in my discard too?

Or do I keep the cards I have in my hand, then reshuffle and draw new cards for the quest..? As of now we keep EVERYTHING the same as it was at the end of encounter 1, which is a bit messy to keep track of on paper and so on

10) When it comes to cards like Frenzy and Dash, can I play them whilst/after doing actions on my activation or do I have to use them all "at the start of the activation" before I decide anything I want to do with the monster?

11) How about the timing on "after dice rolls". If I have that warlord card that let me add 2 shields to defence, can it be added after all surges are spent or is it only precisely after the dice roll?

1) It's been explained that the intent of "you can't make him spend fatigue" was to prevent the use of skills. Essentially, you can't make him exhaust anything. Not mana weave, not a potion, not a skill. You just get to use an equipped weapon to make an attack. You can use surge abilities of that weapon (provided they don't make the hero suffer fatigue). You cannot play "frenzy" or "dash" on a dark charmed hero because it's not an activation, but you could play "critical blow" and/or "dark might" because there is a monster performing an attack.

2) No, not unless an ability explicitly allows it. In general, all attacks "must target a space containing an enemy figure." Summoned stones are sort of an exception to this, as they can be targeted by attacks from heroes or monsters.

3) As long as you mean "you" the runemaster and not "you" the overlord dark charming the runemaster, yes. Whenever an attack targets or affects multiple figures, the procedure is that there is only one set of attack results (range, damage, surges) and multiple sets of defense results (shields). So, say you attack a zombie and the attack has "blast", and there is another zombie adjacent to him. You roll 1 heart, 2 surges, and 4 range.

The target zombie is 4 away, so your attack does not miss.

One zombie rolls 3 shields, and the other rolls 1.

You spend 1 surge on "suffer a fatigue to add +2 hearts" and the other on "poison". Now, your attack results are "3 hearts, 4 range".

The target zombie rolled 3 shields, and so is not dealt any damage. He is not poisoned.

The other zombie rolled only 1 shield, so he suffers 2 damage and is poisoned.

4) He can only appear somewhere he can count spaces to (within a certain range) from where he disappeared. You cannot count spaces through closed doors, but you can count through figures. (See my guide to range and LOS in my signature for more information).

5) Yup. With 5 fatigue, you can add 5 shields.

6) Put 10 boulders or have the heroes trapped, yes. NOTE: regardless of how many expansions you have, it remains 10 objective tokens.

7) Again, see my guide to range and LOS. You can move diagonally across those short bits of black wall just like if it were a corner.

8) The asterisk says where it is possible to find the unique search token. The 3 and 4 indicate ordinary search tokens which get placed with that number of heroes.

9) You do not shuffle your discard pile into your deck between encounters, only between quests (or when your deck runs out and you need to draw, or when a card tells you to do so). That is, between encounters, your hand, discard pile, and deck do not change.

1) Let's say I have 1 card left in my overlord deck, and I trigger a condition that let me draw 2 cards, do I end up with drawing those two cards after reshuffling?

2) Can baron zachareth use his dominion ability twice on a hero he already immobilized on the first try? I guess the general question here is if you can use "move X spaces" on targets that are immobilized. My guts say yes because immobilize specifically tells you it only won't let you use move actions or spend fatigue for move points (everything else is good to go). It's just one of those things that break "logic" and feels cheap for the players and kinda go rage quit after being perma immobilized acrossed the map from 12 spaces away and moved around until they lose xD (evil laughter and deep down I get a little worried they will rage quit for real but hope they are hardcore gamers enough to take stuff like this like men)

3) Will Sneaky (+1 extra damage to targets that did not have LoS to you from the start of the turn) trigger when you come back from being revived?

When you are knocked out you do remove your figure form the board, but I don't know if that truly means you lose LoS to that figure and can trigger this bonus

4) What happens to doors that are locked or require special conditions to be opened on quests after they are opened?

The shadow vault has a door that state it's stuck and require a strenght test to open. After this, will any figure be able to open/close it like usual? Or is it ignored for the rest of the quest?
I take it it's ignored since it doesn't state anything else about it.

5) Can spiders placed on boulders be attacked, when playing the quest Death on the Wing - Encounter 1? (Boulders are stated to block LoS and movement, spiders are stated to be able to move through and end their movement on top of them)

1) draw first card, shuffle, draw another

2) I would say yes. It's not an attack so can be performed twice, and immobilize only blocks move actions and suffering fatigue to move.

3) Not sure

4) I believe the quest should normally state if it is removed from the map or not. or if figures can open or close it.

1) Let's say I have 1 card left in my overlord deck, and I trigger a condition that let me draw 2 cards, do I end up with drawing those two cards after reshuffling?

2) Can baron zachareth use his dominion ability twice on a hero he already immobilized on the first try? I guess the general question here is if you can use "move X spaces" on targets that are immobilized. My guts say yes because immobilize specifically tells you it only won't let you use move actions or spend fatigue for move points (everything else is good to go). It's just one of those things that break "logic" and feels cheap for the players and kinda go rage quit after being perma immobilized acrossed the map from 12 spaces away and moved around until they lose xD (evil laughter and deep down I get a little worried they will rage quit for real but hope they are hardcore gamers enough to take stuff like this like men)

3) Will Sneaky (+1 extra damage to targets that did not have LoS to you from the start of the turn) trigger when you come back from being revived?

When you are knocked out you do remove your figure form the board, but I don't know if that truly means you lose LoS to that figure and can trigger this bonus

4) What happens to doors that are locked or require special conditions to be opened on quests after they are opened?

The shadow vault has a door that state it's stuck and require a strenght test to open. After this, will any figure be able to open/close it like usual? Or is it ignored for the rest of the quest?

I take it it's ignored since it doesn't state anything else about it.

1) I can't think of any other way to do it other than that you pull the 1 card that is left, then you re-shuffle your discarded Overlord cards, and then you pull another card.

2) Yes. The ability is not a move action, nor does the target suffer fatigue to move. But that target can still be moved, through various means. This is (afaik) consistent throughout the game. Immobilize simply makes you unable to take move actions or take fatigue to move. Any other means of moving (or being moved) is still legitimate (unless they are worded in such as way as to say that you take a move action, which many Heroic Feats are, for example). Sometimes, this is very thematic (such as in the case of Zachareth, I assume that the Immobilization is mental, not physical) and in other cases it's a bit weird, yeah. Sometimes you'd think that the mere act of moving through other means would free you, but that'd require a granularity I don't think we actually want.

3) I.. I can't answer this for sure, but I don't see why not. It "makes sense" (that's a problematic word when it comes to RAW, if there ever was one) to me, both thematically and rules-wise. You're actually off the board when you're knocked out, and when you are placed back on the board, you come from outside of LoS. However, hero tokens count as being LoS to the hero in many cases (such as healing, the section of which seems to say nothing about you or the token having to be in LoS, now that I read it). So I can't say for absolute certainty. I would judge yes.

4) Most quests state what happen, and some even specify that if it's open with a strength test, it's broken, but if it's opened through other means, it can be opened and closed. If nothing else is stated, I assume that "special" doors are always opened permanently (because they tend to be force-fields or doors that need to be broken down, etc) while "regular" doors persists and can be freely opened and closed. In that partcular quest, I would assume that once the door is broken down, it's discarded, since it doesn't say otherwise.

5) Can spiders placed on boulders be attacked, when playing the quest Death on the Wing - Encounter 1? (Boulders are stated to block LoS and movement, spiders are stated to be able to move through and end their movement on top of them)

Since boulders block line of sight, only adjacent spiders on boulders could be attacked in any case....

Boulders block Line of Sight, but if you can still trace a path from one of your corners to one of the spider's corners, I'd assume it's in Line of Sight, making spiders standing on top of one boulder (but not otherwise blocked) potentially in LoS.

I can think of few things more ridiculous than a giant spider on top of a boulder being hidden from sight because it's on top of the boulder.

3) This actually cannot be applied. If you are revived by another hero, you start your turn alive, so nothing to see here. If you stand up for yourself, you inmediately end your turn, so you cannot attack, nor use your ability. Unless there is something that I'm missing, or there is a Scout who can stand up and act the same turn (via feat or something).

3) This actually cannot be applied. If you are revived by another hero, you start your turn alive, so nothing to see here. If you stand up for yourself, you inmediately end your turn, so you cannot attack, nor use your ability. Unless there is something that I'm missing, or there is a Scout who can stand up and act the same turn (via feat or something).

It's important to distinguish "turn" from "round." You did, but the original question requires understanding the difference. You're right, there are very few instances of such an ability.

When you are KO, you are off the map. When you are off the map, you are out of LOS (except KO hero tokens can be treated as heroes for healing abilities, so Radiant Light could heal a KO hero).

If you were off the map at start of turn, and then after start of turn you returned to the map (somehow), sneaky would trigger.

Throwing in a bunch of fresh Q's again

1-3) As you'll find in the FAQ, no, you can't keep moving. Whenever you're instructed to "end your move action" or become immobilized, you lose all your movement points. It doesn't matter how many move actions you have in progress, or fatigue you've suffered- your MP pool drops to zero.

However, immobilized only affects move actions and MP gained by suffering 1 fatigue. All other types of MP spending (Elven Boots) or non-MP movement ("Move up to your speed") are not prohibited by being immobilized. "Ending your move action" or becoming immobilized will take away MP gained from the Elven boots, but only if they're already in your pool (if it's your turn, they are). See my glossary for more (organized) details.

4) No. It comes back at the start of your next turn, and disappears at the end of your next turn. So, if it's defeated during Round 1 (during a hero turn), it will appear at the start of OL turn 1, and disappear at the end of OL turn 1. It can activate as normal.

5) Yes, it can be replaced with reinforcements. It's the OL turn, so he chooses the order of events for conflicting triggers. The monster is disappearing and being placed simultaneously at end of turn. Therefore, you can choose to remove it, then reinforce it.

6) The yellow die is in the reanimate's pool "permanently". It doesn't appear just when it's going to activate and do an attack. Any attack it makes will use a pool of blue/yellow/red (instead of its default blue/red). In other words, those effects of Vampiric Blood have no cost- they're "always on".

You'll recover a fatigue for each defeated monster during Army of Death. Even though it's one attack, there are multiple "deal damage" steps (one for each affected monster). When the monster suffers damage such that it dies, you get a fatigue.