I just noted that there is a lot of post here regarding OP Rune Plate item like for item as Act 1. If you fill that this items needs to be nerfed in next Errata 1.7 - please type in reply below: "I've signed this petition"

EDITED:

Option 1: To give it brown dice for every class and grey dice +2hp for mages. Still makes it best armor for mages in game and easy to implement.

Option 2: To move it to Act 2.

Here is probabilities for dices. To see that goblins and many other small pre-setuped monsters cannot do any dmg at all to mage with Runeplate.

While I've also seen the discussions regarding this card (and experienced the card first hand a number of times as hero and overlord) I don't think it's fair to just say, "nerf it". Specifically, I think if the card's power is going to be addressed, the first thing that needs to happen is a discussion of what specifically is overpowered about Rune Plate, and how to go about fixing it. In other words, rather than merely saying, "this card is OP," let's talk about how to make it more reasonable.

For comparison:

Leather Armor increases Health by 1 and 1 brown die, and costs 75.

Chainmail adds a gray die but prohibits rune equipment (not available to mages) and limits speed to 4, and costs 150.

Black Iron Helm increases Health by 2 and adds a shield (the equivalent of an upgrade from gray to black), and costs 150.

Scalemail adds a gray die and allows one to suffer a fatigue to add a brown die, and costs 225.

Platemail adds a black die but prohibits rune equipment (not available to mages) and limits speed to 3, and costs 250.

I would agree that the Rune Plate plate is strong, and maybe it's too strong.

There are only upsides for mages:

+2 health if knowledge is 4 or more

+A black defence dice if you have a rune equipped

+No downsides

+Available in Akt I

And all that for 175 Gold?

Seriously I can't think of a better armor for a mage. The item itself is not so overpowered, but for Akt I it is. Compare that with the Chainmail: a grey dice, no health increase, speed limitation (not a big deal though) for 150 gold. So we basically get a chain mail AND a Black Iron Helm (total 300 Gold) for 175 Gold in ONE item and in Akt 1 which means: the heroes can always buy it after the interlude.

I fear I have to agree with Skiffling. There are other very strong items as well, but these are Akt 2 items. Maybe a doable solution would be to deny the heroes the access to the whole Akt 1 shop after the interlude? But then it comes down to pure luck

So I will probably sign this petition. But I want to hear counter-arguments first.

I personally do not think this is OP at all, especially for the cost. 175 gold is basically the highest cost item for Act I. Yes it is great for defense, but does nothing for offense. After many quests, this is essentially all of the gold the hero party has. If you choose to spend it all on a defense item for a single hero, you are not providing for any increased offensive capability.

I have no issue with this item, its abilities, or its costs. Much like many other things within D2e, there are trade offs. Decisions have to be made.

The other point I've always considered with Rune Plate is that there is such a small chance you'll find it during Act 1 (before the interlude). Keep in mind that most armor is incompatible with Mages. Either it's too weak to do any good, or it prohibits them from equipping runes (which are often their best weapons). So yes, Rune Plate is great for them- but every other piece of armor is not. Maybe the party will get lucky and find it after the first quest, but even then 175 gold is a significant chunk of change. The main complaint I've seen against it is "it's basically an Act 2 item." Yes, it's on the upper end of Act 1 for sure- but the most likely time for a hero to own it is at the conclusion of Act 1- not equipped until Act 2.

Maybe the party will get lucky and find it after the first quest, but even then 175 gold is a significant chunk of change.

Now what are the odds of that happening!

http://d2etracker.com/campaign_overview.php?urlGamingID=102519043

No nerf!

But honestly, I think its fine. Its max 1 shield extra, an only a little bit of health, for mages who have low health anyway

I mean... it's max 4 shields extra... but otherwise, yes.

Since we are discussing this item, I have one question.

Suppose a mage with 4 Knowledge wears this item and has 2 HP left. Now if the OL moves a master changeling into a 3 space range of that mage, he has to apply -1 to its knowledge, looses the +2 HP and drops dead. Right?

If so: no nerf! Thats fun

I mean... it's max 4 shields extra... but otherwise, yes.

I meant compared to if it would be nerfed to a grey die to be more in line with other items? Or am I missing something.

That's a real thing, he will die on the spot.

By the way, I did some math. Sorry for the long post.

There are 67 Act 1 shop cards (all expansions). Out of these, there are 10 armors:

Leather Armor (x2)

Chainmail

White Wolf Cloak

Thief's Vest

Heavy Cloak

Marsh Cloak

Baron's Cloak

Cloak of Mists

Rune Plate

Of these, I only really consider Cloak of Mists, Rune Plate, and Baron's Cloak to be suitable protection for a mage (the rest give no more than a brown or prohibit runes). I also consider the following items "good buys" for a mage looking to be more durable:

Bloodscript Ring

Corpsebug Brooch

That's 5 cards out of 67 that I'm saying can protect a mage well during Act 1. Assuming the 4-hero party buys 1 card per shop step, the chance of drawing at least 1 of these cards is:

33% after 1 shop step

55% after 2 shop steps

71% after 3 shop steps

81% after 4 shop steps (just before the Interlude with no rumors)

87% after 5 shop steps (possible if you went on 1 rumor quest)

92% after 6 shop steps (possible if you went on 2 rumor quests)

Now, if you're looking specifically for Rune Plate, that drops to:

7.5% after 1 shop step

14% after 2 shop steps

21% after 3 shop steps

27% after 4 shop steps (just before the Interlude with no rumors)

33% after 5 shop steps (possible if you went on 1 rumor quest)

38% after 6 shop steps (possible if you went on 2 rumor quests)

That is, in a normal campaign (no rumors) there is less than a 30% chance the party will see Rune Plate in a shop step during Act 1 (less than 40% with 2 rumors).

In Act 2, there are 48 shop cards, 8 of which I consider OK for mages who want to be durable:

Obsidian Scalemail

Vestments of Kellos

Cloak of Deception

Inscribed Robes

Elven Cloak

Demonhide Leather

Iron-Bound Ring

Black Iron Helm

The chance of finding one of these is:

62% after 1 shop step

86% after 2 shop steps

95% after 3 shop steps (just before the Finale with no advanced quests)

98% after 4 shop steps (possible if you went on 1 advanced quest)

I mean... it's max 4 shields extra... but otherwise, yes.

I meant compared to if it would be nerfed to a grey die to be more in line with other items? Or am I missing something.

I meant normally the card adds a gray (additional 0-3 shields). If the card adds a black, that's an additional 0-4 shields from the base roll of 1 gray die. You're right, it's just 1 shield above the already added gray (a black die is essentially a gray with +1 shield on every side but the blank).

Hmm your arguments convince me. The Rune Plate still shines and is surely the go-to item (after the interlude), but as Any2Cards wrote, defense is not everything and buying and Ironbound Rune in Act 1 might be a better trade-off (If the starting item of the mage is crappy of course). Also, the fact that the OL can potentially disrupt the health bonus is a fact one has to consider and the black die can always roll a blank or be mitigated with pierce.

That's a real thing, he will die on the spot.

By the way, I did some math. Sorry for the long post.

There are 67 Act 1 shop cards (all expansions). Out of these, there are 10 armors:

Leather Armor (x2)

Chainmail

White Wolf Cloak

Thief's Vest

Heavy Cloak

Marsh Cloak

Baron's Cloak

Cloak of Mists

Rune Plate

Of these, I only really consider Cloak of Mists, Rune Plate, and Baron's Cloak to be suitable protection for a mage (the rest give no more than a brown or prohibit runes). I also consider the following items "good buys" for a mage looking to be more durable:

Bloodscript Ring

Corpsebug Brooch

That's 5 cards out of 67 that I'm saying can protect a mage well during Act 1. Assuming the 4-hero party buys 1 card per shop step, the chance of drawing at least 1 of these cards is:

33% after 1 shop step

55% after 2 shop steps

71% after 3 shop steps

81% after 4 shop steps (just before the Interlude with no rumors)

87% after 5 shop steps (possible if you went on 1 rumor quest)

92% after 6 shop steps (possible if you went on 2 rumor quests)

Now, if you're looking specifically for Rune Plate, that drops to:

7.5% after 1 shop step

14% after 2 shop steps

21% after 3 shop steps

27% after 4 shop steps (just before the Interlude with no rumors)

33% after 5 shop steps (possible if you went on 1 rumor quest)

38% after 6 shop steps (possible if you went on 2 rumor quests)

That is, in a normal campaign (no rumors) there is less than a 30% chance the party will see Rune Plate in a shop step during Act 1 (less than 40% with 2 rumors).

In Act 2, there are 48 shop cards, 8 of which I consider OK for mages who want to be durable:

Obsidian Scalemail

Vestments of Kellos

Cloak of Deception

Inscribed Robes

Elven Cloak

Demonhide Leather

Iron-Bound Ring

Black Iron Helm

The chance of finding one of these is:

62% after 1 shop step

86% after 2 shop steps

95% after 3 shop steps (just before the Finale with no advanced quests)

98% after 4 shop steps (possible if you went on 1 advanced quest)

99% after 5 shop steps (possible if you went on 2 advanced quests)

Just one point to note... Don't forget the Treasure chest... ;-)

Won't change much the stats... but can happen nonetheless !

I personally am more bugged by the Crossbow than the Runeplate. You can legitimately complain about the Runeplate being an Act 2 item in an Act 1 deck for sure. However, the Crossbow is like an Act 2.5 item in an Act 1 deck.

The ability to reposition monsters is incredibly powerful and can completely change the outcome of any quest involving racing the Overlord's lieutenants, or where the Overlord must establish a blockade. And the crossbow can do this at Range!

Or you can just throw a monster into a pit, lava, into a trap, etc. No size limitation either! How exactly does a crossbow move a Shadow Dragon around?

Counterplay is often difficult too. Monsters that are 'immovable' aren't always an option in such quests, and its not like you can give a lieutenant like Splig or Eliza Farrow this trait.

This is on top of the weapon having solid damage for the whole campaign that goes over the top if the wielder is a Treasure Hunter. If any card deserves a good whack with the nerf bat, its this crazy thing.

I know of nothing more meaningless than forum petitions. That is all.

I personally am more bugged by the Crossbow than the Runeplate. You can legitimately complain about the Runeplate being an Act 2 item in an Act 1 deck for sure. However, the Crossbow is like an Act 2.5 item in an Act 1 deck.

The ability to reposition monsters is incredibly powerful and can completely change the outcome of any quest involving racing the Overlord's lieutenants, or where the Overlord must establish a blockade. And the crossbow can do this at Range!

Or you can just throw a monster into a pit, lava, into a trap, etc. No size limitation either! How exactly does a crossbow move a Shadow Dragon around?

Counterplay is often difficult too. Monsters that are 'immovable' aren't always an option in such quests, and its not like you can give a lieutenant like Splig or Eliza Farrow this trait.

This is on top of the weapon having solid damage for the whole campaign that goes over the top if the wielder is a Treasure Hunter. If any card deserves a good whack with the nerf bat, its this crazy thing.

What bothers me most about the Crossbow isn't so much that it's very powerful - although it absolutely is - but the fact that I cannot fathom why it's got the ability to reposition monsters at all . It's depicted and named as a basic crossbow, nothing else. I may harp on and on about the thematic side of things, but I just can't wrap my head around this one. I'd rather see it gain another pierce than the extra dmg and repositioning.

What bothers me most about the Crossbow isn't so much that it's very powerful - although it absolutely is - but the fact that I cannot fathom why it's got the ability to reposition monsters at all . It's depicted and named as a basic crossbow, nothing else. I may harp on and on about the thematic side of things, but I just can't wrap my head around this one. I'd rather see it gain another pierce than the extra dmg and repositioning.

I imagine rope arrows from Thief: The Dark Project

Just a quick question Zaltyre. Do you shuffle the shop deck between every quest? Or not?

I do.

I personally do not think this is OP at all, especially for the cost. 175 gold is basically the highest cost item for Act I. Yes it is great for defense, but does nothing for offense. After many quests, this is essentially all of the gold the hero party has. If you choose to spend it all on a defense item for a single hero, you are not providing for any increased offensive capability.

I have no issue with this item, its abilities, or its costs. Much like many other things within D2e, there are trade offs. Decisions have to be made.

Thank you for reply. Well cost isn't an issue (however my current party lost 2 of 3 games in LoR campaign, but due treasure hunter, they have 2 chests and 575 gold. And now on shop step got Rune plate).

But issue is that 2 groups of small monsters, which are many setuped in Act 1, was not able to do ANY damage to mage with Rune Plate. Basically blue+yellow dice (average dmg 3) attack and and "hard damagers" like blue+red dice (average damage 4) become ineffective at all, because black+grey dice gives 3-4 defence average. And even +2 hp. This Item is good and may be OK for Act 2. But it's break game if party get it early Act 1. To many encounters with pre-setuped small monsters.

While I've also seen the discussions regarding this card (and experienced the card first hand a number of times as hero and overlord) I don't think it's fair to just say, "nerf it". Specifically, I think if the card's power is going to be addressed, the first thing that needs to happen is a discussion of what specifically is overpowered about Rune Plate, and how to go about fixing it. In other words, rather than merely saying, "this card is OP," let's talk about how to make it more reasonable.

For comparison:

Leather Armor increases Health by 1 and 1 brown die, and costs 75.

Chainmail adds a gray die but prohibits rune equipment (not available to mages) and limits speed to 4, and costs 150.

Black Iron Helm increases Health by 2 and adds a shield (the equivalent of an upgrade from gray to black), and costs 150.

Scalemail adds a gray die and allows one to suffer a fatigue to add a brown die, and costs 225.

Platemail adds a black die but prohibits rune equipment (not available to mages) and limits speed to 3, and costs 250.

Thank you for note. Added options.

I do.

Then I guess I didn't pay enough attention during math in school or something

I do.

Then I guess I didn't pay enough attention during math in school or something

Here's what I did. There are 67 shop cards. 66 are not Rune plate. So, for the first shop step, as you draw your 5 cards, the chance of none of them being Rune Plate is:

(66/67)*(65/66)*(64/65)*(63/64)*(62/63)

The chance rune plate shows up is 1-that.

If the heroes buy one card, the next shop step is similar, but it's

(65/66)*...*(61/62)

That only gives you the probability you don't draw it during the second shop step, though. To have not drawn it yet , you multiply the chance of not drawing it during the first shop step by the chance of not drawing it during the second. The method for the following steps is the same. Work with the chance to not draw it, and then subtract from 1 to get the chance you do.

I see, I'll try and do the math when I have some time.

I just thought it was weird that the chance somehow doubles (between step 1 and 2 for example) just because one card is removed, if you shuffle.

I mean, technically, you could draw the same 4 cards you didn't buy again +1 new one the next step if you're really unlucky.

It does make sense that the chances double from step 1 to 2. Assuming that you don't buy anything and that you don't get the same cards in the second shopping step (which is of course a simplification) you can say that you are effectively drawing 10 cards at once. Therefore the chances must double. Zaltyre is not calculating the chances that a card shows up exactly in step x, but anytime from step 1 to x.

Atom,

(may I call you Atom?) Please note that the probablities I listed were cumulative in time. That is, the chance to draw the rune plate during the first shopping step is very similiar to the chance to draw it during the second. However, what I listed were the chances of drawing it during the:

First

First or second

First, second, or third

This is why the probabliity essentially doubles- it's draw 5 without replacement vs draw 5 without replacement, replace 4, then draw 5 more without replacement.