Ion Batteries. Probably on a Raider-II. If not used in the flak role.

Still not great, but can punch down shields and get a face-up.

If Ion batteries were 3 pts it could be a thing.

This combo with Screed and a Tractor Beam turns the Raider II into a dedicated Flotilla killer.

My opinion is that we need an FAQ to properly understand how it works before wondering if it's any good.

My opinion is that we need an FAQ to properly understand how it works before wondering if it's any good.

Agreed there. Until we get definitive ruling about the interaction with XX-9s and APTs triggering independently of each other.

My opinion is that we need an FAQ to properly understand how it works before wondering if it's any good.

Agreed there. Until we get definitive ruling about the interaction with XX-9s and APTs triggering independently of each other.

How would this be problematic?

APT: deal one face-up.

XX-9: first two dmg dealt faceup (instead of just the first).

The APT card is dealt separately from the rest of the damage. Does that change? No.

Another one:

Avenger ISD (probably the II), with Overload Pulse. Built specifically for Advanced Gunnery, both as 1st and 2nd player. Taking XX-9 is optional.

My opinion is that we need an FAQ to properly understand how it works before wondering if it's any good.

Agreed there. Until we get definitive ruling about the interaction with XX-9s and APTs triggering independently of each other.

How would this be problematic?

APT: deal one face-up.

XX-9: first two dmg dealt faceup (instead of just the first).

The APT card is dealt separately from the rest of the damage. Does that change? No.

I agree that is most likely how it should work, but to say that it's not exactly cut-and-dry. I would feel MUCH more comfortable with an FAQ so I don't have to get into a lively discussion with an opponent who reads it another way.

My opinion is that we need an FAQ to properly understand how it works before wondering if it's any good.

Agreed there. Until we get definitive ruling about the interaction with XX-9s and APTs triggering independently of each other.

How would this be problematic?

APT: deal one face-up.

XX-9: first two dmg dealt faceup (instead of just the first).

The APT card is dealt separately from the rest of the damage. Does that change? No.

I agree that is most likely how it should work, but to say that it's not exactly cut-and-dry. I would feel MUCH more comfortable with an FAQ so I don't have to get into a lively discussion with an opponent who reads it another way.

It's extremely dry IMO.

What's not dry is the XX-9 + default crit. That's a bit of a stretch, given the specifics of the XX-9 card. Still, it could do with a clarification.

The problem is that the overall rules aren't very clear on what constitutes damage being dealt. So any critical effects that cause extra damage have weird interactions with other critical effects that modify that damage.

Example: APT plus standard effect: is the APT the first damage dealt, or does the standard critical effect wait for the remaining damage before flipping a card faceup?

The problem is that the overall rules aren't very clear on what constitutes damage being dealt. So any critical effects that cause extra damage have weird interactions with other critical effects that modify that damage.

Example: APT plus standard effect: is the APT the first damage dealt, or does the standard critical effect wait for the remaining damage before flipping a card faceup?

Exactly. Like I said, your interpretation makes sense, Green Knight, and I'm inclined to agree, but I know other people will have difficulty understanding it until there is an FAQ there. I would rather not bog down a game with having to have a lecture on critical effects and damage dealt

Future gold maybe?

When the Arquitens Light Cruiser hits. With ordnance and turbos. And a new turbo uptake.

The problem is that the overall rules aren't very clear on what constitutes damage being dealt. So any critical effects that cause extra damage have weird interactions with other critical effects that modify that damage.

Example: APT plus standard effect: is the APT the first damage dealt, or does the standard critical effect wait for the remaining damage before flipping a card faceup?

Exactly. Like I said, your interpretation makes sense, Green Knight, and I'm inclined to agree, but I know other people will have difficulty understanding it until there is an FAQ there. I would rather not bog down a game with having to have a lecture on critical effects and damage dealt

APT isn't the "first damage dealt" - you are resolving its critical effect during "Resolve Critical Effects" Phase (All but the standard critical/ XX-9 critical resolve here). It's critical effect is dealing a damage card *independently of* resolving damage, which comes later. "First damage dealt" is always a reference to damage that got through shields in the Resolve Damage phase.

The rules are crystal clear on this, and the FAQ already addresses it. XX-9 + standard critical effect would only deal 2 face-up damage cards if and only if 2 damage got through shields during Resolve Damage Phase.

What is unclear about Fire Control Team is if you need multiple critical dice faces showing to get multiple effects, since the original rules only dealt with 1 or more critical dice faces showing.

Is there any ship that has both an ion cannon and ordinance upgrade slots?

I agree that the rules in general - and the wording on some of the cards could be a bit clearer.

I also know that FFG doesn't really FAQ everything that probably should be FAQed. Mostly we get some e-mail replies, then maybe, long after, a FAQ entry.

So I urge people to just use the rules, as best we can:

Crits resolve first thing during the Resolve Damage step. This we know.

Critical effects resolve at the beginning of the “Resolve Damage” step of an attack.

For APT, the effect is deal 1 card faceup. We already know that this card is entirely separate from the damage rolled. No question there.

Now, since there can be only 1 critical effect, we're pretty much done, right? The rest of the damage rolled is now face-down.

But, with FCT, you can resolve 1 more crit. The default being 1st card dealt faceup.

The standard critical effect is “: If the defender is dealt at least one damage card by this attack, deal the first damage card faceup.”

​Dealt damage by THIS ATTACK. Not dealt damage by THE ALREADY RESOLVED CRIT.

Not going to argue this any more here, but you get my drift.

Is there any ship that has both an ion cannon and ordinance upgrade slots?

Not at the moment.

Of course, all of this dirty laundry is already airing in the rules sub-forum.

Of course, all of this dirty laundry is already airing in the rules sub-forum.

...and now it's spreading, like the Dark Side it seeps into every nook...

Dodonna is the guy who wants this, but no ordnance experts means you are too likely to end up with no crits at all, and then why are we talking old man beardo in the first place... if it turns out that xx9 and standard crit give 3 faceups then dodonna mc80lib with xi7 as well as leading shots, is as good as it's likely to get... pretty much the only reason I'll buy a liberty is if I can do that!

Dodonna is the guy who wants this, but no ordnance experts means you are too likely to end up with no crits at all, and then why are we talking old man beardo in the first place... if it turns out that xx9 and standard crit give 3 faceups then dodonna mc80lib with xi7 as well as leading shots, is as good as it's likely to get... pretty much the only reason I'll buy a liberty is if I can do that!

seem like away for imperial to make Raiders even more cruise missilely with Screed

The problem is that the overall rules aren't very clear on what constitutes damage being dealt. So any critical effects that cause extra damage have weird interactions with other critical effects that modify that damage.

Example: APT plus standard effect: is the APT the first damage dealt, or does the standard critical effect wait for the remaining damage before flipping a card faceup?

Exactly. Like I said, your interpretation makes sense, Green Knight, and I'm inclined to agree, but I know other people will have difficulty understanding it until there is an FAQ there. I would rather not bog down a game with having to have a lecture on critical effects and damage dealt

APT isn't the "first damage dealt" - you are resolving its critical effect during "Resolve Critical Effects" Phase (All but the standard critical/ XX-9 critical resolve here). It's critical effect is dealing a damage card *independently of* resolving damage, which comes later. "First damage dealt" is always a reference to damage that got through shields in the Resolve Damage phase.

The rules are crystal clear on this, and the FAQ already addresses it. XX-9 + standard critical effect would only deal 2 face-up damage cards if and only if 2 damage got through shields during Resolve Damage Phase.

What is unclear about Fire Control Team is if you need multiple critical dice faces showing to get multiple effects, since the original rules only dealt with 1 or more critical dice faces showing.

If you look at my original argument in the rules forum, this was my exact argument and I still abide by it. However, the issue will be resolved permanently by clarifying the following:

Do these effects only trigger off of the attack damage (the sum of all hit and crit results per the RRG) or the first damage card dealt regardless of cause during the attack? In the former, only damage done after the crit would be counted or affected. In the latter, the APT would override the Standard Critical Effect and XX-9s.

Another example, would be hitting hull on a ship with ACMs and also a critical effect, but not punching through the shielding with your normal damage. Would either card be affected? Or would you need to actually get through with your regular attack to start flipping cards faceup?

The problem is that the overall rules aren't very clear on what constitutes damage being dealt. So any critical effects that cause extra damage have weird interactions with other critical effects that modify that damage.

Example: APT plus standard effect: is the APT the first damage dealt, or does the standard critical effect wait for the remaining damage before flipping a card faceup?

Exactly. Like I said, your interpretation makes sense, Green Knight, and I'm inclined to agree, but I know other people will have difficulty understanding it until there is an FAQ there. I would rather not bog down a game with having to have a lecture on critical effects and damage dealt

APT isn't the "first damage dealt" - you are resolving its critical effect during "Resolve Critical Effects" Phase (All but the standard critical/ XX-9 critical resolve here). It's critical effect is dealing a damage card *independently of* resolving damage, which comes later. "First damage dealt" is always a reference to damage that got through shields in the Resolve Damage phase.

The rules are crystal clear on this, and the FAQ already addresses it. XX-9 + standard critical effect would only deal 2 face-up damage cards if and only if 2 damage got through shields during Resolve Damage Phase.

What is unclear about Fire Control Team is if you need multiple critical dice faces showing to get multiple effects, since the original rules only dealt with 1 or more critical dice faces showing.

If you look at my original argument in the rules forum, this was my exact argument and I still abide by it. However, the issue will be resolved permanently by clarifying the following:

Do these effects only trigger off of the attack damage (the sum of all hit and crit results per the RRG) or the first damage card dealt regardless of cause during the attack? In the former, only damage done after the crit would be counted or affected. In the latter, the APT would override the Standard Critical Effect and XX-9s.

Another example, would be hitting hull on a ship with ACMs and also a critical effect, but not punching through the shielding with your normal damage. Would either card be affected? Or would you need to actually get through with your regular attack to start flipping cards faceup?

Critical effects can occur as long as their key requirement is fulfilled. Most of these just require an uncancelled critical face to be in the damage pool(and so far only evades can really cancel crit dice normally). ACM requirement is fulfilled when a black crit appears, so yes it works even though no damage cards are dealt(which is damage to the hull). Standard crit effect requirement is also fulfilled when any crit appears, it is just that if u do not deal any damage cards this attack then the standard crit effect to make one of them faceup is rendered useless.

This is the same for XX-9. You need two damage cards dealt in your attack for it to have it's full effect.

EDIT: Sorry, to answer your question more fully:

from rules reference

4. Spend Defense Tokens: The defender can spend one or more of its defense tokens

5. Resolve Damage: The attacker can resolve one of its critical effects. Then the attacker determines the total damage amount. Then the defending squadron or hull zone suffers that total damage, one point at a time.

◊ If the attacker or defender is a squadron, the damage is the sum of all F icons.

◊ If the attacker and defender are ships, the damage is the sum of all F and E icons.

◊ Each ship has the following standard critical effect: “E: If the defender is dealt at least one damage card by this attack, deal the first damage card faceup.”

(RE-EDIT: sorry I copy pasted this. The F are actually damage icons, the E are critical icons)

So you should be resolving both crit effects from FCT allowance at the same time, just before applying damage. However, note that the standard crit effect(SCE) only takes effect after the if condition that a damage card is dealt to the defender. It is thus declared first and then happens later.

If ACM also resolves in this attack, its damage is applied before the rest of the damage from the attack, since we resolve crit effects before applying damage. If this results in the defender receiving damage cards(maybe his sides had no shields), then yes by this argument he would eat a faceup as the SCE takes effect now, just as a damage card is dealt. Furthermore all damage done during this whole period is counted as part of this attack, so it also fulfills the SCE condition.

The problem is that the overall rules aren't very clear on what constitutes damage being dealt. So any critical effects that cause extra damage have weird interactions with other critical effects that modify that damage.

Example: APT plus standard effect: is the APT the first damage dealt, or does the standard critical effect wait for the remaining damage before flipping a card faceup?

Exactly. Like I said, your interpretation makes sense, Green Knight, and I'm inclined to agree, but I know other people will have difficulty understanding it until there is an FAQ there. I would rather not bog down a game with having to have a lecture on critical effects and damage dealt

APT isn't the "first damage dealt" - you are resolving its critical effect during "Resolve Critical Effects" Phase (All but the standard critical/ XX-9 critical resolve here). It's critical effect is dealing a damage card *independently of* resolving damage, which comes later. "First damage dealt" is always a reference to damage that got through shields in the Resolve Damage phase.

The rules are crystal clear on this, and the FAQ already addresses it. XX-9 + standard critical effect would only deal 2 face-up damage cards if and only if 2 damage got through shields during Resolve Damage Phase.

What is unclear about Fire Control Team is if you need multiple critical dice faces showing to get multiple effects, since the original rules only dealt with 1 or more critical dice faces showing.

I'm inclined to the understanding that you only need one crit, as long as it is the right crit to trigger the effects: i.e. one black crit allows both ACM and standard crit effect to resolve. Reason being that the crit is not being "spent", one of the more commonly used keywords here.

Of course FFG have FAQed XI7 before, so they can also do so here. we just have to wait and see for this.

Of course, all of this dirty laundry is already airing in the rules sub-forum.

...and now it's spreading, like the Dark Side it seeps into every nook...

Can I kill it with Fire yet?

Of course, all of this dirty laundry is already airing in the rules sub-forum.

Been there done that, definitely don't wanna rehash it all again.

The problem is that the overall rules aren't very clear on what constitutes damage being dealt. So any critical effects that cause extra damage have weird interactions with other critical effects that modify that damage.

Example: APT plus standard effect: is the APT the first damage dealt, or does the standard critical effect wait for the remaining damage before flipping a card faceup?

Exactly. Like I said, your interpretation makes sense, Green Knight, and I'm inclined to agree, but I know other people will have difficulty understanding it until there is an FAQ there. I would rather not bog down a game with having to have a lecture on critical effects and damage dealt

APT isn't the "first damage dealt" - you are resolving its critical effect during "Resolve Critical Effects" Phase (All but the standard critical/ XX-9 critical resolve here). It's critical effect is dealing a damage card *independently of* resolving damage, which comes later. "First damage dealt" is always a reference to damage that got through shields in the Resolve Damage phase.

The rules are crystal clear on this, and the FAQ already addresses it. XX-9 + standard critical effect would only deal 2 face-up damage cards if and only if 2 damage got through shields during Resolve Damage Phase.

What is unclear about Fire Control Team is if you need multiple critical dice faces showing to get multiple effects, since the original rules only dealt with 1 or more critical dice faces showing.

If you look at my original argument in the rules forum, this was my exact argument and I still abide by it. However, the issue will be resolved permanently by clarifying the following:

Do these effects only trigger off of the attack damage (the sum of all hit and crit results per the RRG) or the first damage card dealt regardless of cause during the attack? In the former, only damage done after the crit would be counted or affected. In the latter, the APT would override the Standard Critical Effect and XX-9s.

Another example, would be hitting hull on a ship with ACMs and also a critical effect, but not punching through the shielding with your normal damage. Would either card be affected? Or would you need to actually get through with your regular attack to start flipping cards faceup?

Critical effects can occur as long as their key requirement is fulfilled. Most of these just require an uncancelled critical face to be in the damage pool(and so far only evades can really cancel crit dice normally). ACM requirement is fulfilled when a black crit appears, so yes it works even though no damage cards are dealt(which is damage to the hull). Standard crit effect requirement is also fulfilled when any crit appears, it is just that if u do not deal any damage cards this attack then the standard crit effect to make one of them faceup is rendered useless.

This is the same for XX-9. You need two damage cards dealt in your attack for it to have it's full effect.

EDIT: Sorry, to answer your question more fully:

from rules reference

4. Spend Defense Tokens: The defender can spend one or more of its defense tokens

5. Resolve Damage: The attacker can resolve one of its critical effects. Then the attacker determines the total damage amount. Then the defending squadron or hull zone suffers that total damage, one point at a time.

◊ If the attacker or defender is a squadron, the damage is the sum of all F icons.

◊ If the attacker and defender are ships, the damage is the sum of all F and E icons.

◊ Each ship has the following standard critical effect: “E: If the defender is dealt at least one damage card by this attack, deal the first damage card faceup.”

(RE-EDIT: sorry I copy pasted this. The F are actually damage icons, the E are critical icons)

So you should be resolving both crit effects from FCT allowance at the same time, just before applying damage. However, note that the standard crit effect(SCE) only takes effect after the if condition that a damage card is dealt to the defender. It is thus declared first and then happens later.

If ACM also resolves in this attack, its damage is applied before the rest of the damage from the attack, since we resolve crit effects before applying damage. If this results in the defender receiving damage cards(maybe his sides had no shields), then yes by this argument he would eat a faceup as the SCE takes effect now, just as a damage card is dealt. Furthermore all damage done during this whole period is counted as part of this attack, so it also fulfills the SCE condition.

This intent flies directly in the face of people who have been demoing the game during the preview articles and the fleet design contest.

As stated, it is unclear what the developer intent for this card is, and it should be FAQ'd or errata'd to be more clear both with existing and future critical effects.

I honestly think an FAQ is necessary just for clarity. Up until six months ago, a lot of people thought it was completely cut-and-dry that an obstacle still obstructs even when the base of a ship covers the visible portion, and by the rules it can easily be read that way, but an email overruled that. So even if by the rules the interpretation is supported, it doesn't mean it won't get FAQed the other way.