But I also don't see any issue in restricting the dice you actually roll to maximum of 2 of each color, because you can always choose just 1 green die into your attack pool if you're focused.

Well I might want to roll GGGR with focus (or RRR with explosive munitions for another example).

If you take it that literally, then you can't roll RRR, but you could take RRR and then use Heavy Firepower to remove an R and add 3 damage... So you'd be rolling only 2 reds...

I love this. At first I assumed that Wiess' Epic Arsenal and Focus were independent (i.e. GGR + G was good). After reviewing the Rules Ref Guide, I think that initial hypothesis was incorrect.

Mostly relevant text:

Epic Arsenal(General Weiss):

"Your attack pool consists of any combination of 3 attack dice. You may not roll more than 2 dice of a single color."

Hmm, that's a good point... doesn't the wording mean then that the restriction of no more than 2 of the same colour applies only to the 3 dice of the dice pool? Otherwise you could argue that focus does not add a fourth dice?

Epic Arsenal(General Weiss):

"Your attack pool consists of any combination of 3 attack dice. You may not roll more than 2 dice of a single color."

Hmm, that's a good point... doesn't the wording mean then that the restriction of no more than 2 of the same colour applies only to the 3 dice of the dice pool? Otherwise you could argue that focus does not add a fourth dice?

I thought about that. I think here's the order of operation:

Step 1. Declare Attack

-Check Target Eligibility

-Epic Arsenal builds attack pool: " Your attack pool consists of any combination of 3 attack dice."

-Focus adds a Die to the attack pool (combo of):

"Focused is a condition that provides the figure with an additional green die the next time the figure attacks or performs a test. The condition is then discarded.

And

"An ability that adds dice to a dice pool can only be used immediately before step 2 of the attack."

Step 2. Roll Dice

-Check Epic Arsenal "You may not roll more than 2 dice of a single color."

Carry on as normal.

A fun question comes up: what do we do with unrolled dice in the attack pool? The assumption is they just go poof.

Epic Arsenal(General Weiss):

"Your attack pool consists of any combination of 3 attack dice. You may not roll more than 2 dice of a single color."

Hmm, that's a good point... doesn't the wording mean then that the restriction of no more than 2 of the same colour applies only to the 3 dice of the dice pool? Otherwise you could argue that focus does not add a fourth dice?

I thought about that. I think here's the order of operation:

Step 1. Declare Attack

-Check Target Eligibility

-Epic Arsenal builds attack pool: " Your attack pool consists of any combination of 3 attack dice."

-Focus adds a Die to the attack pool (combo of):

"Focused is a condition that provides the figure with an additional green die the next time the figure attacks or performs a test. The condition is then discarded.

• A figure with this condition must gain the extra die when it attacks or performs an attribute test.

And

"An ability that adds dice to a dice pool can only be used immediately before step 2 of the attack."

Step 2. Roll Dice

-Check Epic Arsenal "You may not roll more than 2 dice of a single color."

Carry on as normal.

A fun question comes up: what do we do with unrolled dice in the attack pool? The assumption is they just go poof.

This should be checked with FFG. When I think about it, I don't think they intended it this way. I think the intention was the original pool can't have more than 2 of the same colour, and its just poor wording, which the core set is now famous for. And I'm sure the intention was to prevent you from using 3 blue dice and snipping people from the opposite side of the map, or 3 red and being right on top of them and blasting the heck out of everything. 3 Green is the least of your worries - which is why the original concern had me wondering why anybody would be stressing about 3 green dice, when there's much better alternatives?

You guys are nuts.

It you're going to follow the second part of epic arsenal to the letter "you may not roll more than 2 dice of a single color." Why wouldn't you follow the first part to the letter as well? "Your attack pool consists of any combination of 3 attack dice," it would be futile to focus Weiss since he can't roll 4 die.

We all know that's crazy, of course you can focus him. So of course it wouldnt have an impact on his die picks.

edit;

The dice generated by the deployment card are not always the same as the attack pool.

The attack pool can be modified, by various abilities, including being focused.

That being said, General Weiss is a very poorly worded deployment card.

And remember, you can always just decide what works for your group. I would always allow Weiss to roll a green Focus die, regardless of what other dice was chosen. Unique characters and such deserve some love..

The other way to look at it is this..... The whole point of that sentence is to not allow 3 Red dice.

It's simply a poorly worded power limit.

No one is going to choose 3 blue because that's simply way too much range. No one will take 3 Yellow because you don't need that many surges. 2 Red and 2 Green (with focus) is better than 1 Red and 3 Green anyway, so it's sort of a non issue.

RRGG = 7 dmg, 1.4 surges, 3.4 acc.

RGGG = 6.1dmg, 1.7 surges, 5.1acc.

Then add the built in +2 acc.
I think it would be very, very rare, where you'd want to actually chose RGGG. Weiss doesn't come with a targeting computer, so if you're chasing range, you're better off choosing a blue anyway.

Finally, there are only 2 of each dice in the core set/dice pack. That's potentially another reason to limit it to only 2 of each color, even though there are characters like Jyn and Greedo that roll 3 Green when focused. It's not really a rule thing but most games will avoid creating situations that use more components than they supply.

The other way to look at it is this..... The whole point of that sentence is to not allow 3 Red dice.

It's simply a poorly worded power limit.

No one is going to choose 3 blue because that's simply way too much range. No one will take 3 Yellow because you don't need that many surges. 2 Red and 2 Green (with focus) is better than 1 Red and 3 Green anyway, so it's sort of a non issue.

RRGG = 7 dmg, 1.4 surges, 3.4 acc.

RGGG = 6.1dmg, 1.7 surges, 5.1acc.

Then add the built in +2 acc.

I think it would be very, very rare, where you'd want to actually chose RGGG. Weiss doesn't come with a targeting computer, so if you're chasing range, you're better off choosing a blue anyway.

Finally, there are only 2 of each dice in the core set/dice pack. That's potentially another reason to limit it to only 2 of each color, even though there are characters like Jyn and Greedo that roll 3 Green when focused. It's not really a rule thing but most games will avoid creating situations that use more components than they supply.

Good points. Again ignoring the first part of "consists of 3 attack die," you're listing 4. If you can't take a 3rd Green you can't take a 4th die

FFG continue to disappoint me in their rulings:

My Question:

General Weiss's "Epic Arsenal" ability includes the clause "You may not roll more than two dice of a single colour". Does this also apply to dice other than those selected by the ability, focus for instance? So if Weiss was focused could he attack we GGGR (with one green die coming from focus)?

The Answer:

He could not roll GGGR while Focused and would need to select a different dice combination.

Edit: This technically means that, if and when something lets you add a black die to your defense pool (can't remember if anything exists that would allow that on Weiss yet), he wouldn't be able to take advantage of it.

FFG continues to interpret rules literally, which is good. (Makes rules predictable.)

But ruling rules as written doesn't bind them to not errata things when needed. It has happened before and will continue to happen. (Although I don't expect that in this case.)

FFG continues to interpret rules literally, which is good. (Makes rules predictable.)

But ruling rules as written doesn't bind them to not errata things when needed. It has happened before and will continue to happen. (Although I don't expect that in this case.)

Demonstrably false: there's still no errata on ranged cleave indicating that it needs enough accuracy.

Demonstrably false: there's still no errata on ranged cleave indicating that it needs enough accuracy.

There is... Grand Inquisitor Pack has the updated cleave rule for ranged attacks. Though it does need to be added to the FAQ under their new Updated Rules section.

Edit: This technically means that, if and when something lets you add a black die to your defense pool (can't remember if anything exists that would allow that on Weiss yet), he wouldn't be able to take advantage of it.[/size]

Hmm, maybe we need to ask if the Epic Arsenal condition of 2 dice applies to defense dice? It implies attack, I think. But even so, is there a way to add a black defense die to General Weis, in skirmish or campaign?

Demonstrably false: there's still no errata on ranged cleave indicating that it needs enough accuracy.

There is... Grand Inquisitor Pack has the updated cleave rule for ranged attacks. Though it does need to be added to the FAQ under their new Updated Rules section.

Okay, haven't gotten that yet (of course that came quite some time after the ruling was made so my point is still valid).

A literal reading doesn't leave room for implication, that's kind of the point.

EDIT:

New Revelation: This interpretation of Weiss's ability doesn't tie the rolling restriction to the selection of the attack pool. That means that if Verena Talos uses Weiss's attack pool he could select for her to roll RRR since she doesn't have the epic arsenal ability.

Sorry, I'm having fun now.

Shouldn't the restriction apply for Verena? If she doesn't have the "epic arsenal" then she has no attack pool at all? Is it Weiss' player that selects the pool?

Well Epic Arsenal literally says "Your attack pool consists of any combination of 3 attack dice. You may not roll more than 2 dice of a single color."

I would expect that also applies to Verena since her attack says "Perform an attack targeting an adjacent hostile figure using that figure's attack type and attack pool."

In this case Weiss's attack pool "consists of any combination of 3 attack dice". So that's what she would use (with the 2 dice restriction). The focus of the word "you" and "your" is whoever is currently active and performing an action.

Epic Arsenal would carry over to Verena.

Otherwise, you could just say that Weiss doesn't have an attack pool until he attacks, so Verena would just have to use her own. But I think that would have to be FAQed. I would rule it the first option.

There's no way Weiss picking Verena's attack makes sense.

Also Epic Arsenal doesn't affect black dice at all. It's only for attack and "attack pool".

Epic arsenal is an ability and i doubt it transfers to verena. She uses the bottom part of card for dice pool (which you can choose freely in this case) and attack type

Well Epic Arsenal literally says "Your attack pool consists of any combination of 3 attack dice. You may not roll more than 2 dice of a single color."

I would expect that also applies to Verena since her attack says "Perform an attack targeting an adjacent hostile figure using that figure's attack type and attack pool."

In this case Weiss's attack pool "consists of any combination of 3 attack dice". So that's what she would use (with the 2 dice restriction). The focus of the word "you" and "your" is whoever is currently active and performing an action.

Epic Arsenal would carry over to Verena.

Otherwise, you could just say that Weiss doesn't have an attack pool until he attacks, so Verena would just have to use her own. But I think that would have to be FAQed. I would rule it the first option.

There's no way Weiss picking Verena's attack makes sense.

Also Epic Arsenal doesn't affect black dice at all. It's only for attack and "attack pool".

It specifically says that someone who picks their dice gets to pick when Verena attacks with their pool (rth pg 8).

Nothing else you say here has any support from the literal ruling of epic arsenal as has just been made. It separates the two dice restriction from the selection of the attack pool which means it should apply to Weiss's defense and shouldn't apply to people who don't have the ability.

Just to make it clear I don't think what I'm saying is the way the game should be played; I'm just drawing rational conclusions from the ruling already made so as to support my claim that it's a terrible ruling.

There's no way Weiss picking Verena's attack makes sense.

Sense or not, that would be the literal interpretation.

Verena does not take control of the figure and its abilities unlike Murne Rin would (if she could do that to General Weiss), Verena only uses the attack pool and attack type of the figure. The attack pool of General Weiss is controlled by him during Verana's Close Quarters.

I think I have discussed this elsewhere. It seems the technical editor of IA agrees about my interpretation. https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1469900/return-hoth-heroes-preview

Edit: Yeah, and the Return to Hoth rulebook says it, thanks Norgrath.

When ' Close Quarters ' is used in relation to a figure without a specific dice pool, such as a figure with ' Arsenal ' or Epic Arsenal , the dice pool is determined by that figure's controlling player by the same method as if the figure were attacking. For example, if this occurred in relation to a figure with Arsenal , the player controlling the targeted figure determines which two dice Verena will use during Close Quarters .

There's no way Weiss picking Verena's attack makes sense.

I'm pretty sure Weiss was the one who decided what to load his AT-ST with before turning up for the battle...

It specifically says that someone who picks their dice gets to pick when Verena attacks with their pool (rth pg 8).

Right you are... it's clarifies that very clearly... why the hell are we discussing it for half a page???

Side Note:

I really wish they wouldn't hide clarifications like this on the mini expansion rule books. That stuff should be rolled into the FAQ or RRG as soon as it comes out.

I don't think I've ever read through one of them. They added the companion rules to the FAQ, why not these ones?

They added the "attacks" updates that use Biv as an example, but not Verena's Close Quarters.

Bizarre. Guess it's just an oversight and really only applies to Verena. but still. FAQ that.

The nice thing is though, that the same things keep getting added to each expansion so examples keep building as you buy newer ones.

So in the end of all of this.

General Weiss (if focused) can at best/max roll GG(and 2 other colors) right?

Thanks,

~D

It specifically says that someone who picks their dice gets to pick when Verena attacks with their pool (rth pg 8).

Right you are... it's clarifies that very clearly... why the hell are we discussing it for half a page???

Side Note:

I really wish they wouldn't hide clarifications like this on the mini expansion rule books. That stuff should be rolled into the FAQ or RRG as soon as it comes out.

I don't think I've ever read through one of them. They added the companion rules to the FAQ, why not these ones?

They added the "attacks" updates that use Biv as an example, but not Verena's Close Quarters.

Bizarre. Guess it's just an oversight and really only applies to Verena. but still. FAQ that.

I only have ONE rule book... 50 pages long... but only one. I sliced the spines off all the pages and stuck them into a 50 page plastic sleeve folder, so that I have it all in one place, and also the pages themselves are protected from wear and tear by the sleeves. For an extra lifehack, I used transparency paper (those clear plastic A4 sheets for overhead projectors) for the mini rule books. That particular one is safe for any player to read, no campaign spoilers.

All the maps I've got in an extra 3 x 50 page plastic sleeve folders - one for the main campaigns, one for the mini campaigns, and the final one for the figure packs. That one is almost full though, so will need another one soon.