I know some of you just blow up at anything that could be considered "premeasuring" or measuring just because you can although it may provide added information. The previous king of this was using Target Lock even if the "target" may be out of range but now we've got the Seismic Torpedo which only cares about R1-R2 and having things in arc.

Looking at Seismic Torpedo it appears that we get to range out obstacles to see if they are at R2 or closer and also to see if they are in-arc. If the obstacle does NOT meet both of those requirements one gets to back up.

The only thing that has me questioning if this is a great rangefinder that would allow you to shoot range and firing arc to every obstacle is the way it is worded. When you attempt to pop this upgrade you "choose an obstacle" which you would then need to range/arc check to see if it is legal; my question is simply if the obstacle you choose fails do you get to back all the way of spending the upgrade or must you check to see if there is an obstacle that does not fail the checks.

If there are no obstacles at R1 or R2 and in arc then Seismic Torpedoes will allow you to range/arc check before backing out to perform a different Action. The only thing that would stop it from being reusable in that task is if you MUST choose an obstacle that meets those conditions if you can.

It'd surprise me if the sequence wasn't Declare Seismic Torpedo Declare Obstacle Measure Range.

I think it will be just like Target Lock. You declare your target and measure range. If it's out of range, you're free to choose a different action. You're not stuck target locking somebody else.

just like any other action, specifically TL, you declare it, measure, if in range you HAVE to do it, elsewise just pick something else.

Huh, neat-o!

Another reason to hate this stupid card.

If you want to spend two points and potentially waste an action just to be able to measure to a rock, be my guest. Using Target Lock for the same thing is free and will often still be a good use of the action.

I am so glad I play casually. I'd rather play wrong and have lots of great friendly games than have to debate the syntax of a ruling with a 'rules lawyer gamer'.

I still remember my first encounter with one. How disappointing.

Been there, don't want the tee-shirt.

I foresee a number of heated discussions between players when it becomes apparent that one is taking liberties with their range ruler in measuring to ships along the way to the rock, or perhaps even a little off course

So what is an appropriate points cost for a card that lets you, as a Free Action, Measure distances (with potential price differences for an In-Arc and -anywhere subtypes)...

I mean, 2 points to do it is apparently "too cheap", so what is that ability actually worth ?

If you want to spend two points and potentially waste an action just to be able to measure to a rock, be my guest. Using Target Lock for the same thing is free and will often still be a good use of the action.

As the requirements are R1 or R2 AND inside your arc I suspect "accidentally" picking an obstacle that you don't actually want to target would be a little harder than grabbing a TL you didn't really want to have.

If you want to use the Seismic as a legal rangefinder it should be pretty easy to avoid accidentally picking an obstacle that would really need to be right in front of you.

Seriously, the only reason there isn't free measuring (and there is kind of) is because every time someone moved some dip-**** would be measuring and getting in the way,slowing down game play.

Seriously, the only reason there isn't free measuring (and there is kind of) is because every time someone moved some dip-**** would be measuring and getting in the way,slowing down game play.

[sarcasm] NO IT'S NOT!!! The reason there is no measuring of any kind outside of an extremely narrow window with a highly specific purpose is to discriminate against anyone who has less than perfect spacial recognition. In fact, they should make everyone wear special glasses that distort things so there is a completely even playing field when it comes to judging distances and angles. [/sarcasm]

I certainly agree that the only real reason for the draconian restrictions against measuring are because of potential time wasting if someone could freely measure anything at any time. I mean all of that stuff is public information and I certainly think there are situation when allowing someone to "premeasure" would actually save time instead of requiring someone to go to extreme non-measure measures before deciding on some course of action.

Seriously, the only reason there isn't free measuring (and there is kind of) is because every time someone moved some dip-**** would be measuring and getting in the way,slowing down game play.

[sarcasm] NO IT'S NOT!!! The reason there is no measuring of any kind outside of an extremely narrow window with a highly specific purpose is to discriminate against anyone who has less than perfect spacial recognition. In fact, they should make everyone wear special glasses that distort things so there is a completely even playing field when it comes to judging distances and angles. [/sarcasm]

I certainly agree that the only real reason for the draconian restrictions against measuring are because of potential time wasting if someone could freely measure anything at any time. I mean all of that stuff is public information and I certainly think there are situation when allowing someone to "premeasure" would actually save time instead of requiring someone to go to extreme non-measure measures before deciding on some course of action.

I played a WWII naval game where you had to guess the range when firing. Some guys were very good at determining the range and no matter how experiences the strategy game might be, if they couldn't accurately just the correct feet and inches between models they nearly always lost.

One guy actually argued this made it more historically accurate? We can justify anything no matter how lame and this is a good example.

Seriously, the only reason there isn't free measuring (and there is kind of) is because every time someone moved some dip-**** would be measuring and getting in the way,slowing down game play.

[sarcasm] NO IT'S NOT!!! The reason there is no measuring of any kind outside of an extremely narrow window with a highly specific purpose is to discriminate against anyone who has less than perfect spacial recognition. In fact, they should make everyone wear special glasses that distort things so there is a completely even playing field when it comes to judging distances and angles. [/sarcasm]

I certainly agree that the only real reason for the draconian restrictions against measuring are because of potential time wasting if someone could freely measure anything at any time. I mean all of that stuff is public information and I certainly think there are situation when allowing someone to "premeasure" would actually save time instead of requiring someone to go to extreme non-measure measures before deciding on some course of action.

I disagree. The bits of uncertainty are what makes this game exciting.

If Soontir could check all the arcs and ranges and lay his templates down to see where he'd end up you'd never end up in those situations where he just didn't dodge the arcs quite enough and you've caught him with only a single focus token to hide behind.

It's not like X-Wing punishes you by making you lose attacks or actions because you estimated range or arc incorrectly.

This works the same as TL but costs 2 points and there's no ship that can take it that doesn't have a TL action already. Also TL can be used with PtL but this can't.

Also it doesn't let you check arc really. The only thing you could do is see if the target is in the arc or not, it's not like you can lay the ruler down on both arc lines and 'accidentally' check the arc on everything in your arc.

I kind of like this card. Seems like a good way to fill up those extra torpedo slots on Xwings.

Also, premeasuring... We got rules for that. For all instances where it applies, so... even if Seismic Torps does provide an opportunity for premeasuring, it will be a controlled window of opportunity and it's not like it will be that much of a boon anyways. So you get to see where R3 begins, so do I. Thanks! Haha! Rule of 13 just got easier to use now, so go ahead. Are you sure you don't wanna measure for a TL too?

But let's face it. Seismic Blorps is a hard counter to Collision Detectors. Since, you know, why reward those of us who can accurately guess movement and range so as to make use of CDs and skirting rocks for unexpected maneuvers? Clearly, if you can hard 2 around an asteroid, you deserve to have that asteroid blown up and have it damage you. It's not like you were going to do anything with those two hull points anyways, right Whisper?

edit: I'm actually so mad about Seismic Florbs that I'm just going to disrespect it by intentionally messing up it's name, every time. So, in closing I'd just like to say that Seismic Glops are a gimmicky and unnecessary counter to the promised glory of Collision Doodlers. Wave 10 can suck a plorb out of a plorbhole. I'm fleebed.

Huh. Currently, I would imagine you technically could try and measure seimsic to every rock on the table, even ones that are totally not R1-2 nor arc'ed.

Huh. Currently, I would imagine you technically could try and measure seimsic to every rock on the table, even ones that are totally not R1-2 nor arc'ed.

That's kind of how I see it as well as long as you've got the upgrade available.

Sure Target Lock could provide much of the same functionality BUT you're far less likely to "accidentally" blow up an obstacle you don't want too as opposed to accidently getting stuck with a TL on a ship you didn't really want to lock. There is also that bit about being in arc which may or may not be "measuring" but it's one more thing to keep you from using the upgrade when you're just using it to ping a stationary object.

I see PtL mentioned and while you couldn't pretend to use Seismic Torp after you've taken some other action like you could with a TL you can easily do it before taking another action and potentially using PtL. It wouldn't stop a ship from "trying to blow up that obstacle out there that's right behind that ship of yours" and upon seeing it's out of range then deciding to boost in closer. While PtL couldn't trigger it Experimental Interface could.

I disagree. The bits of uncertainty are what makes this game exciting.

If Soontir could check all the arcs and ranges and lay his templates down to see where he'd end up you'd never end up in those situations where he just didn't dodge the arcs quite enough and you've caught him with only a single focus token to hide behind.

It's not like X-Wing punishes you by making you lose attacks or actions because you estimated range or arc incorrectly.

Bits of uncertainly perhaps.

When it comes to premeasuring I am not a fan of the "let me take the time to check EVERY possible thing" and when it comes to maneuvers and such you certainly shouldn't move the ship before committing but I don't see the harm in holding the ruler or template over the board before committing provided it is done quickly.

I see sarcasm in that last statement hiding a lie because X-Wing certainly DOES punish you when you estimate ranges and arcs incorrectly.

Seriously, the only reason there isn't free measuring (and there is kind of) is because every time someone moved some dip-**** would be measuring and getting in the way,slowing down game play.

[sarcasm] NO IT'S NOT!!! The reason there is no measuring of any kind outside of an extremely narrow window with a highly specific purpose is to discriminate against anyone who has less than perfect spacial recognition. In fact, they should make everyone wear special glasses that distort things so there is a completely even playing field when it comes to judging distances and angles. [/sarcasm]

I certainly agree that the only real reason for the draconian restrictions against measuring are because of potential time wasting if someone could freely measure anything at any time. I mean all of that stuff is public information and I certainly think there are situation when allowing someone to "premeasure" would actually save time instead of requiring someone to go to extreme non-measure measures before deciding on some course of action.

The reason there is no pre-measuring is because judging distances is supposed to be a skill in this game.

IMO when declaring a boost, BR, Target Lock, Seismic Torpedo, etc. that you cannot perform, you should just lose out on your action. None of this BS where you check for TL, don't get it, and then boost into range and get the TL. You shouldn't be able to do that, you should just have to be good at the game.

Nothing was more frustrating than blocking all but one of a pre-nerf Phantom's decloak positions, only for them to try each and every single one until they found the one that barely worked. I predicted your maneuver and blocked the corresponding decloak, you misjudged and thought you could decloak there and you couldn't, you should actually be punished for this.

Casual player here, so forgive me.

What's the rule about when you can pre-measure and when you can't?

Seriously, the only reason there isn't free measuring (and there is kind of) is because every time someone moved some dip-**** would be measuring and getting in the way,slowing down game play.

[sarcasm] NO IT'S NOT!!! The reason there is no measuring of any kind outside of an extremely narrow window with a highly specific purpose is to discriminate against anyone who has less than perfect spacial recognition. In fact, they should make everyone wear special glasses that distort things so there is a completely even playing field when it comes to judging distances and angles. [/sarcasm]

I certainly agree that the only real reason for the draconian restrictions against measuring are because of potential time wasting if someone could freely measure anything at any time. I mean all of that stuff is public information and I certainly think there are situation when allowing someone to "premeasure" would actually save time instead of requiring someone to go to extreme non-measure measures before deciding on some course of action.

I disagree. The bits of uncertainty are what makes this game exciting.

If Soontir could check all the arcs and ranges and lay his templates down to see where he'd end up you'd never end up in those situations where he just didn't dodge the arcs quite enough and you've caught him with only a single focus token to hide behind.

It's not like X-Wing punishes you by making you lose attacks or actions because you estimated range or arc incorrectly.

...

The reason there is no pre-measuring is because judging distances is supposed to be a skill in this game.

IMO when declaring a boost, BR, Target Lock, Seismic Torpedo, etc. that you cannot perform, you should just lose out on your action. None of this BS where you check for TL, don't get it, and then boost into range and get the TL. You shouldn't be able to do that, you should just have to be good at the game.

Nothing was more frustrating than blocking all but one of a pre-nerf Phantom's decloak positions, only for them to try each and every single one until they found the one that barely worked. I predicted your maneuver and blocked the corresponding decloak, you misjudged and thought you could decloak there and you couldn't, you should actually be punished for this.

If judging distances is such a skill then why measure anything at all? Here I thought planning is the skill that is supposed to be used with a touch of luck thrown in as well.

Not much to say about your opinion except that it is even more wrong than the idea that measure should be allowed without restrictions. There are many ways to legally measure in the game and sometime doing them could bite you.

There are many skills needed to play this or any other game. I guess you just want to make the emphasis weigh heavier on less relevant skills like being able to mentally measure within a fraction of an inch instead of using a tool for that job. I sure hope you never use spellcheck or a calculator of any kind because being able to spell and do math are two very important skills to know and since it seems you are against using tools to aid your skills....

If you want to spend two points and potentially waste an action just to be able to measure to a rock, be my guest. Using Target Lock for the same thing is free and will often still be a good use of the action.

As the requirements are R1 or R2 AND inside your arc I suspect "accidentally" picking an obstacle that you don't actually want to target would be a little harder than grabbing a TL you didn't really want to have.

Is it really different from figuring out if you have range 2 or 3 of a ship in front of you by measuring TL to a ship that's range 4 behind the target?

If you want to spend two points and potentially waste an action just to be able to measure to a rock, be my guest. Using Target Lock for the same thing is free and will often still be a good use of the action.

As the requirements are R1 or R2 AND inside your arc I suspect "accidentally" picking an obstacle that you don't actually want to target would be a little harder than grabbing a TL you didn't really want to have.

Is it really different from figuring out if you have range 2 or 3 of a ship in front of you by measuring TL to a ship that's range 4 behind the target?

Yes and no. If it's "clearly" at R4+ then there may not be much difference but it's my belief that the further away you get the harder it may be to judge distance.

The TL still gets stuck if the target is OoA at R3 while an obstacle that is OoA and only right next to you could show you that fighter hanging out at R2 as the stick goes beyond the obstacle.