Personally my combo of Tractor Dash and Jan Ors is an unbeatable duo that Palpatine cannot stand up to.

Dash Rendar (36)
Opportunist (4)
Tractor Beam (1)
R2-D2 (Crew) (4)
Engine Upgrade (4)
Outrider (5)

Jan Ors (25)
Predator (3)
Twin Laser Turret (6)
Kyle Katarn (3)
Shield Upgrade (4)
Moldy Crow (3)

Total: 98

I'm disappointed PGS. You're repeating yourself, and not even particularly well.

I'm getting the impression you don't really understand how my list actually works. I will admit it is not perfect and it has its limitations, as you so aptly like to point out.

I also get the impression however you don't really understand what you're facing. You see the pieces but fail to comprehend how they all work in tandem with each other. That you're not used to a list that runs right at you at top speed. I don't play the 2-4 turns of maneuvering game that so many people like too. The only one of your ships that likes that is the shuttle. The Inquisitors range one shenanigans don't mean crap against my list.

I'm also noticing that you keep focusing on my shuttle, like killing it will stop my ships from shooting you. It really doesn't. Oh, it's nice to have, but not actually essential past the initial joust. If it lives, which it often does, it spends its time wandering aimlessly around the back of the board trying to turn around while Rexlar destroys what remains of my opponents list.

I'm probably dodging it.

I'm counting on it. Seriously. The TB is a distraction, albeit one that will almost certainly herald the death of one of your aces if it hits. It's there to eat up modifiers. I get an evade token or Palpatine out of it (or both, as it sometimes happens)? I'm already ahead. You get that I'm throwing another 9-14 red dice at that same ship, right?

I also have the shuttle, possibly with double mods in the fight because of FCS.

I know how FCS shuttles work. I took one to second in a SC last season. They can be quite powerful, but they're also fairly ungainly. They're certainly no baffle shuttle, but I get what you're doing with Vessery.

Mauler is still only Range 1.

Scourge is only better than an Academy pilot when damage cards are applied.

Yes, that is what my pilot cards say. Thank you for reminding me. Did it perhaps cross your mind that I'm aware of my own lists limitations? That I do in fact plan around those limitations and try to use them to the best of my ability? That those pilot abilities are not actually the downside you try and make them out to be?

Also, Scourge isn't an Academy. He's PS9. That does quite a bit more than you'd think, especially against a list like yours that caps out at 8.

There may be that turn where you finally force a damage through on Vessery and it will mean little.

Killing him first. /D wrecks /x7. I've done this in game way too often for it to be a fluke. Like I said before, your ships are not as invincible as you think they are, and I've already one-shotted an /x7 defender with my list. Didn't even need the shuttles attack for it.

Your list may be able to occasionally beat Palp Aces

It's always beaten Palp Aces, but hey, what are tournament records for? I will admit I have only played it about a dozen times.

At least my variant does, which I'd argue is the best Palp Aces variant.

Out of curiosity, have you taken it to a 60+ player tournament? I'm actually curious how well it would do/did. My guess of course is that you'd run into one of several lists that hard counter high agility aces and you'd get taken to pasture and not make the cut. But maybe not.

Also, ever actually fought a competent Vader/Soontir? Also curious, I think it would have a field day with arc dodging.

Anyway if you have something interesting to add to the conversation, beyond just repeating ad nauseum that Mauler only works at range 1 (no ****, Sherlock), I'll probably reply.

What I'm trying to get at is that your list requires you to set up multiple pieces and that requires skill to do. If player skill is equal, the Palp Aces player will win if he just plays conservatively.

I have played against competently flown Soontir/Vader Palp Aces before, but not with my squad.

Most of my games aren't 60+ person tournaments.

I have options with my list. I understand that you would try to mass fire on one of my Acewings, and that the TB is mostly there to strip tokens. I get what you're trying to do and it's a decent list, I just think Palp Aces still has the advantage. I can block with my shuttle, I can focus down the Bomber easily.

I'm sorry that I repeated myself, I don't know what else to say about what would happen in our hypothetical list head to head.

I've played awful players at 60+ person events before. Maybe they're just bad at Palp Aces? I know that's going to infuriate you but we haven't actually had this play out on the table so all we have is this theorycraft fight.

Sorry, it's hard for me not to think of my ships as invincible when I tanked a 5 hit Advanced Proton Torpedo after Zuckuss rerolls and only took 1 damage on Vessery.

Sorry, it's hard for me not to think of my ships as invincible when I tanked a 5 hit Advanced Proton Torpedo after Zuckuss rerolls and only took 1 damage on Vessery.

So can Corran Horn, and any other card with 3 agility and access to evade/focus.

Soontir can do it without taking any damage.

Sorry, it's hard for me not to think of my ships as invincible when I tanked a 5 hit Advanced Proton Torpedo after Zuckuss rerolls and only took 1 damage on Vessery.

So can Corran Horn, and any other card with 3 agility and access to evade/focus.

Soontir can do it without taking any damage.

Stop using reason; he has developed a high degree of immunity to it.

Sorry, it's hard for me not to think of my ships as invincible when I tanked a 5 hit Advanced Proton Torpedo after Zuckuss rerolls and only took 1 damage on Vessery.

So can Corran Horn, and any other card with 3 agility and access to evade/focus.

Soontir can do it without taking any damage.

Stop using reason; he has developed a high degree of immunity to it.

Yep.

You forgot Palpatine.

Sorry, it's hard for me not to think of my ships as invincible when I tanked a 5 hit Advanced Proton Torpedo after Zuckuss rerolls and only took 1 damage on Vessery.

So can Corran Horn, and any other card with 3 agility and access to evade/focus.

Soontir can do it without taking any damage.

Stop using reason; he has developed a high degree of immunity to it.

Yep.

You forgot Palpatine.

You can do it without palpatine. My Corran can, and does. He can also explode. No ship in invincible, but palp helps out. But you lob five hits at a 3ag ship, its going to take damage.

/D wrecks /x7.

I totally agree. I like x7, it's a great card and has a lot of nice combos. Tie/D though, so so good. I may have to steal your list friend, it looks awesome.

By the the way I've been running 2 Deltas with Tie/D, Tractor Beam and TIE Mk II + Ryad with PTL, TIE Mk II and x7. 6-0 so far thanks to /D mostly. That includes games against Super Dash, Poe variants and Dengar & chums.

Sorry, it's hard for me not to think of my ships as invincible when I tanked a 5 hit Advanced Proton Torpedo after Zuckuss rerolls and only took 1 damage on Vessery.

So can Corran Horn, and any other card with 3 agility and access to evade/focus.

Soontir can do it without taking any damage.

Stop using reason; he has developed a high degree of immunity to it.

Yep.

You forgot Palpatine.

That whistling sound you heard ? It was the point sailing serenely over your head...

It what would happen in our hypothetical list head to head.

I've played awful players at 60+ person events before. Maybe they're just bad at Palp Aces? I know that's going to infuriate you but we haven't actually had this play out on the table so all we have is this theorycraft fight.

Sorry, it's hard for me not to think of my ships as invincible when I tanked a 5 hit Advanced Proton Torpedo after Zuckuss rerolls and only took 1 damage on Vessery.

A good test is to take challengers, from here, and play them on Vassal.

Have a single thread with a post for the results, and commentary if necessary, for each match-up and include who the match was against as well as squad lists and final score/remaining ships.

This way both you and challenger, from here, can comment as to their success, failure, strategy and of course luck of the dice.

I would be nice to see how well Palpatine with Soontir plays against other builds. Enough games and rematches should give some good data and playing those commenting here gives both weight and validity to the data.

Just a thought.

It what would happen in our hypothetical list head to head.

I've played awful players at 60+ person events before. Maybe they're just bad at Palp Aces? I know that's going to infuriate you but we haven't actually had this play out on the table so all we have is this theorycraft fight.

Sorry, it's hard for me not to think of my ships as invincible when I tanked a 5 hit Advanced Proton Torpedo after Zuckuss rerolls and only took 1 damage on Vessery.

A good test is to take challengers, from here, and play them on Vassal.

Have a single thread with a post for the results, and commentary if necessary, for each match-up and include who the match was against as well as squad lists and final score/remaining ships.

This way both you and challenger, from here, can comment as to their success, failure, strategy and of course luck of the dice.

I would be nice to see how well Palpatine with Soontir plays against other builds. Enough games and rematches should give some good data and playing those commenting here gives both weight and validity to the data.

Just a thought.

This is an excellent idea. I'll have to sit down and figure out vassal sometime. I also have tabletop simulator which seems more visually appealing and user friendly, but I haven't figured that out yet either.

It what would happen in our hypothetical list head to head.

I've played awful players at 60+ person events before. Maybe they're just bad at Palp Aces? I know that's going to infuriate you but we haven't actually had this play out on the table so all we have is this theorycraft fight.

Sorry, it's hard for me not to think of my ships as invincible when I tanked a 5 hit Advanced Proton Torpedo after Zuckuss rerolls and only took 1 damage on Vessery.

A good test is to take challengers, from here, and play them on Vassal.

Have a single thread with a post for the results, and commentary if necessary, for each match-up and include who the match was against as well as squad lists and final score/remaining ships.

This way both you and challenger, from here, can comment as to their success, failure, strategy and of course luck of the dice.

I would be nice to see how well Palpatine with Soontir plays against other builds. Enough games and rematches should give some good data and playing those commenting here gives both weight and validity to the data.

Just a thought.

This is an excellent idea. I'll have to sit down and figure out vassal sometime. I also have tabletop simulator which seems more visually appealing and user friendly, but I haven't figured that out yet either.

I'm glad to hear that and hope to see the results. Who knows? Someone will, hopefully, be surprised.

I beat palp aces everytime I play against it. I am a total pro. I play 5 points down so i always have initiative. Here's the answer PGS, good luck.

Squadron details 95 points

Cartel Spacer [“Heavy Scyk” Interceptor, Targeting Computer, Tractor beam] (19) x 5

what an excellent way to waste 10 points

Honestly I thought it was an excellent way to waste 95 points.

[silliness and whining.]

Look, normally "git gud" is a stupid, useless thing to say.

In this case, it's not. You clearly suuuuuuuuuuuuu ...

(deep breath)

... uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck at X-Wing, as do your opponents. (Which makes sense, as it would explain how you can be unaware how bad you are.)

The Lambda should be dead in the second round of shooting. The third if you're really terrible or unlucky. Yes, the longer Palpatine lives, the more valuable he is. The answer, which really -- no, seriously, really -- ought to be obvious, is "Kill Palpatine first. And kill him a lot."

Your opponents are not doing that. They are allowing you to reap tremendous rewards from a card that should be usable twice, maybe three times. Their terrible play is confusing you into thinking Palpatine is broken.

I mean, you're not alone. Everybody I've ever heard whine about Palpatine doesn't kill him first. (Most recently, that was Jeff Berling on a podcast or two. And -- surprise! -- if you go watch the finals from Origins, he didn't kill the Lambda first.)

Kill the f***ing Lambda. It's not that hard. I'm 19-1 against Palp Aces. (The loss was my first game against it.)

Git gud, scrub. Seriously.

This is an example of what can happen when you go after the shuttle first:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=share&v=uNX13n0lAbY

You end up having to put yourself in bad spots in order to kill the thing, and 10 health behind an agility die is still pretty tough to deal with. The player in the video got at least 29 points of value from the shuttle just by drawing that much aggro.

I agree that often the shuttle is your only option and that's it's stupid not to go for it. But that doesn't mean it's a good option, just that it's your only one. You're ****** either way, just slightly less so if you manage to kill the shuttle "early". I put "early" into scare quotes because you can get a lot of value from Palpatine even if he only triggers 2-3-4 times.

[silliness and whining.]

Look, normally "git gud" is a stupid, useless thing to say.

In this case, it's not. You clearly suuuuuuuuuuuuu ...

(deep breath)

... uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck at X-Wing, as do your opponents. (Which makes sense, as it would explain how you can be unaware how bad you are.)

The Lambda should be dead in the second round of shooting. The third if you're really terrible or unlucky. Yes, the longer Palpatine lives, the more valuable he is. The answer, which really -- no, seriously, really -- ought to be obvious, is "Kill Palpatine first. And kill him a lot."

Your opponents are not doing that. They are allowing you to reap tremendous rewards from a card that should be usable twice, maybe three times. Their terrible play is confusing you into thinking Palpatine is broken.

I mean, you're not alone. Everybody I've ever heard whine about Palpatine doesn't kill him first. (Most recently, that was Jeff Berling on a podcast or two. And -- surprise! -- if you go watch the finals from Origins, he didn't kill the Lambda first.)

Kill the f***ing Lambda. It's not that hard. I'm 19-1 against Palp Aces. (The loss was my first game against it.)

Git gud, scrub. Seriously.

This is an example of what can happen when you go after the shuttle first: https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=share&v=uNX13n0lAbY

You end up having to put yourself in bad spots in order to kill the thing, and 10 health behind an agility die is still pretty tough to deal with. The player in the video got at least 29 points of value from the shuttle just by drawing that much aggro.

I agree that often the shuttle is your only option and that's it's stupid not to go for it. But that doesn't mean it's a good option, just that it's your only one. You're ****** either way, just slightly less so if you manage to kill the shuttle "early". I put "early" into scare quotes because you can get a lot of value from Palpatine even if he only triggers 2-3-4 times.

While I understand your concerns with that tactic, you're giving an example that contains a horrible initial approach from a 5 tie swarm.

Eli's approach was not ideal, but it wasn't terrible, and he more than made up for it with later flying. He significantly outflew the Palp player.

If you want to know why Eli lost, throw all the rolls into Lady Luck. That game was very one-sided.

I very much doubt Eli regrets going after the Lambda, and he shouldn't. He did the right thing, and with even dice, he would have had a better than 50/50 chance to win.

Eli's approach was not ideal, but it wasn't terrible, and he more than made up for it with later flying. He significantly outflew the Palp player.

If you want to know why Eli lost, throw all the rolls into Lady Luck. That game was very one-sided.

I very much doubt Eli regrets going after the Lambda, and he shouldn't. He did the right thing, and with even dice, he would have had a better than 50/50 chance to win.

I admit I stopped watching after his straight approach gave him no real shots on anything when banking in would have given him much better arcs.

It what would happen in our hypothetical list head to head.

I've played awful players at 60+ person events before. Maybe they're just bad at Palp Aces? I know that's going to infuriate you but we haven't actually had this play out on the table so all we have is this theorycraft fight.

Sorry, it's hard for me not to think of my ships as invincible when I tanked a 5 hit Advanced Proton Torpedo after Zuckuss rerolls and only took 1 damage on Vessery.

A good test is to take challengers, from here, and play them on Vassal.

Have a single thread with a post for the results, and commentary if necessary, for each match-up and include who the match was against as well as squad lists and final score/remaining ships.

This way both you and challenger, from here, can comment as to their success, failure, strategy and of course luck of the dice.

I would be nice to see how well Palpatine with Soontir plays against other builds. Enough games and rematches should give some good data and playing those commenting here gives both weight and validity to the data.

Just a thought.

This is an excellent idea. I'll have to sit down and figure out vassal sometime. I also have tabletop simulator which seems more visually appealing and user friendly, but I haven't figured that out yet either.

I'm glad to hear that and hope to see the results. Who knows? Someone will, hopefully, be surprised.

Hey, so it turns out that I never actually bought Tabletop Simulator. So I bought it and figured it out today, beat a Kallus Whisper, and adaptability inquisitor squad.

Any challengers?

It what would happen in our hypothetical list head to head.

I've played awful players at 60+ person events before. Maybe they're just bad at Palp Aces? I know that's going to infuriate you but we haven't actually had this play out on the table so all we have is this theorycraft fight.

Sorry, it's hard for me not to think of my ships as invincible when I tanked a 5 hit Advanced Proton Torpedo after Zuckuss rerolls and only took 1 damage on Vessery.

A good test is to take challengers, from here, and play them on Vassal.

Have a single thread with a post for the results, and commentary if necessary, for each match-up and include who the match was against as well as squad lists and final score/remaining ships.

This way both you and challenger, from here, can comment as to their success, failure, strategy and of course luck of the dice.

I would be nice to see how well Palpatine with Soontir plays against other builds. Enough games and rematches should give some good data and playing those commenting here gives both weight and validity to the data.

Just a thought.

This is an excellent idea. I'll have to sit down and figure out vassal sometime. I also have tabletop simulator which seems more visually appealing and user friendly, but I haven't figured that out yet either.

I'm glad to hear that and hope to see the results. Who knows? Someone will, hopefully, be surprised.

Hey, so it turns out that I never actually bought Tabletop Simulator. So I bought it and figured it out today, beat a Kallus Whisper, and adaptability inquisitor squad.

Any challengers?

It's too bad but I think you'd have a larger variety and better pool of challengers on Vassal.

It what would happen in our hypothetical list head to head.

I've played awful players at 60+ person events before. Maybe they're just bad at Palp Aces? I know that's going to infuriate you but we haven't actually had this play out on the table so all we have is this theorycraft fight.

Sorry, it's hard for me not to think of my ships as invincible when I tanked a 5 hit Advanced Proton Torpedo after Zuckuss rerolls and only took 1 damage on Vessery.

A good test is to take challengers, from here, and play them on Vassal.

Have a single thread with a post for the results, and commentary if necessary, for each match-up and include who the match was against as well as squad lists and final score/remaining ships.

This way both you and challenger, from here, can comment as to their success, failure, strategy and of course luck of the dice.

I would be nice to see how well Palpatine with Soontir plays against other builds. Enough games and rematches should give some good data and playing those commenting here gives both weight and validity to the data.

Just a thought.

This is an excellent idea. I'll have to sit down and figure out vassal sometime. I also have tabletop simulator which seems more visually appealing and user friendly, but I haven't figured that out yet either.

I'm glad to hear that and hope to see the results. Who knows? Someone will, hopefully, be surprised.

Hey, so it turns out that I never actually bought Tabletop Simulator. So I bought it and figured it out today, beat a Kallus Whisper, and adaptability inquisitor squad.

Any challengers?