My list would literally eat this one alive. I've killed a three /x7 Defender list while only losing the shuttle. TB /D is a force multiplier the likes of which the game hasn't seen yet, it's goddamn unfair against one and two agility ships, and I think most people haven't quite figured that out yet.

I felt like defending my list, it did very well against the sorts of lists you peddle as being unbeatable.

Well defended. And I'm pleased to hear someone using the TIE/D title to good affect.

Can you share that list again?

Rexler Brath (39)
TIE Defender (37), Tractor beam (1), Veteran Instincts (1), TIE/D (0)

“Mauler Mithel” (18)
TIE Fighter (17), Veteran Instincts (1)

“Scourge” (18)
TIE Fighter (17), Veteran Instincts (1)

Gamma Squadron Pilot (24)
TIE Bomber (18), TIE Shuttle (0), Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1), Systems Officer (2), Fleet Officer (3)

It was listed earlier in the thread. It has done quite well for me.

[silliness and whining.]

Look, normally "git gud" is a stupid, useless thing to say.

In this case, it's not. You clearly suuuuuuuuuuuuu ...

(deep breath)

... uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck at X-Wing, as do your opponents. (Which makes sense, as it would explain how you can be unaware how bad you are.)

The Lambda should be dead in the second round of shooting. The third if you're really terrible or unlucky. Yes, the longer Palpatine lives, the more valuable he is. The answer, which really -- no, seriously, really -- ought to be obvious, is "Kill Palpatine first. And kill him a lot."

Your opponents are not doing that. They are allowing you to reap tremendous rewards from a card that should be usable twice, maybe three times. Their terrible play is confusing you into thinking Palpatine is broken.

I mean, you're not alone. Everybody I've ever heard whine about Palpatine doesn't kill him first. (Most recently, that was Jeff Berling on a podcast or two. And -- surprise! -- if you go watch the finals from Origins, he didn't kill the Lambda first.)

Kill the f***ing Lambda. It's not that hard. I'm 19-1 against Palp Aces. (The loss was my first game against it.)

Git gud, scrub. Seriously.

Preach it, Jeff!

Git gud is always valid.

I don't mind playing palp aces, but I do tire of people saying 'just kill the shuttle'. For me at least, where our local club level is quite high, I find it very difficult.

I still play rebel regen, so I do OK against aces (3-1 at our regional) but I think it's the best build out there.

I don't mind playing palp aces, but I do tire of people saying 'just kill the shuttle'. For me at least, where our local club level is quite high, I find it very difficult.

Out of sincere curiosity, why (and how) do you find it difficult? You need to do 13 damage or so to a 1-AGI target. For a modern list, that is two rounds of shooting.

The only times -- and I mean only times -- I ever see people struggle to kill the Lambda is when they don't actually try to kill the Lambda.

"But Soontir will get behind me!" "But Vader will get a TL and add a [crit]!" "But Omega Leader is too hard to kill in the endgame!"

Kill. The. F***ing. Shuttle. It's 10 HP behind 1 green die. Kill it.

I get the impression that Palpatine has a limit: he'll make an okay player good but he demands a 29 point shuttle: he gets progressively less useful at higher levels where the shuttle is more proficiently countered and its lesser combat power bites more. At the very top I don't know if he'll cut it as well.

AFAIK Palp Aces is still the most popular archetype that makes the cut on tournaments this season. That, coupled with numerousvregional and System Open wins is proof that Palp 'cuts it' even at the very top.

I rarely if ever go for the shuttle first

but I also rarely if ever play a list that doesn't have at least two ships capable of killing aces through green dice and, therefore, through palpatine. Conners and feedbacks aplenty!

so mileage may vary.

I don't mind playing palp aces, but I do tire of people saying 'just kill the shuttle'. For me at least, where our local club level is quite high, I find it very difficult.

Out of sincere curiosity, why (and how) do you find it difficult? You need to do 13 damage or so to a 1-AGI target. For a modern list, that is two rounds of shooting.

The only times -- and I mean only times -- I ever see people struggle to kill the Lambda is when they don't actually try to kill the Lambda.

"But Soontir will get behind me!" "But Vader will get a TL and add a [crit]!" "But Omega Leader is too hard to kill in the endgame!"

Kill. The. F***ing. Shuttle. It's 10 HP behind 1 green die. Kill it.

it's because it's not known as the Lamba, but as the Lorry Shuttle in the UK

no it's not

it's because it's not known as the Lamba, but as the Lorry Shuttle in the UK

no it's not

... but it should be.

I don't mind playing palp aces, but I do tire of people saying 'just kill the shuttle'. For me at least, where our local club level is quite high, I find it very difficult.

Out of sincere curiosity, why (and how) do you find it difficult? You need to do 13 damage or so to a 1-AGI target. For a modern list, that is two rounds of shooting.

The only times -- and I mean only times -- I ever see people struggle to kill the Lambda is when they don't actually try to kill the Lambda.

"But Soontir will get behind me!" "But Vader will get a TL and add a [crit]!" "But Omega Leader is too hard to kill in the endgame!"

Kill. The. F***ing. Shuttle. It's 10 HP behind 1 green die. Kill it.

The main problem is that I fly Corran/Poe/A-wing.

In the time I've chased the shuttle down - probably 3 turns and begun shooting it, I'm getting whittled down by the aces. And soontir/whisper/Inq behind is a problem because I can't get turned around to catch them again. I find it better to try and limit the dog fighting to one on one and take the shuttle as a target of opportunity as it prsents itself.

I'm of the opinion the those that find killing the shuttle easily are playing mediocre opponents.

I'm sure you'll disagree.

Kill. The. F***ing. Shuttle. It's 10 HP behind 1 green die. Kill it.

As a general rule this is solid, but there are match ups that are exceptions. If I'm taking glitter Crack bots against the my nock special, I kill the threats first everytime; without thrusters and a token stack, neither omega nor whisper can withstand the incoming fire.

Against fel? Kill the shuttle or else. It might be worth downing the inquisition first just because he puts out so much damage, but palp must die before soontir.

Also: pgs is a poorly designed Turing test

In the time I've chased the shuttle down - probably 3 turns and begun shooting it, I'm getting whittled down by the aces. And soontir/whisper/Inq behind is a problem because I can't get turned around to catch them again. I find it better to try and limit the dog fighting to one on one and take the shuttle as a target of opportunity as it prsents itself.

In other words, you don't try to kill the Lambda, because you are afraid of the other ships. Which is exactly why people lose to Palp Aces.

Hint: the other ships are far scarier while the Lambda is on the board. Kill the f***ing Lambda.

I'm of the opinion the those that find killing the shuttle easily are playing mediocre opponents.

I'll let my opponents defend themselves, if they care to. All I can say is that since I'm a mediocre player myself, if I am playing mediocre opponents, we're evenly matched, and the mantra still holds. Kill the f***ing Lambda.

It is amazing to me how people can know that Palpatine is strong, and know that the longer he is on the board the more valuable he becomes, and yet not put the pieces together for the most effective anti-Palp Aces strategy. Kill the f***ing Lambda.

If you think you can win without killing the Lambda, that's fine. Go for it. But if you decide to do that, and you lose, you completely forfeit your right to be taken seriously when whining about how strong Palpatine is, as far as I'm considered. (And if you can do that and win, well why the f*** are you whining about Palpatine at all?) I will never taking whining about Palpatine seriously from people who insist that they don't need to kill the Lambda ... "but Palpatine is just soooo broken!"

Kill. The. F***ing. Lambda.

In the time I've chased the shuttle down - probably 3 turns and begun shooting it, I'm getting whittled down by the aces. And soontir/whisper/Inq behind is a problem because I can't get turned around to catch them again. I find it better to try and limit the dog fighting to one on one and take the shuttle as a target of opportunity as it prsents itself.

In other words, you don't try to kill the Lambda, because you are afraid of the other ships. Which is exactly why people lose to Palp Aces.

Hint: the other ships are far scarier while the Lambda is on the board. Kill the f***ing Lambda.

No, I am trying to kill the Lambda. The point I'm making is that it's not as straight forward as you're making it out to be.

When you go after the Lambda, you get shot to pieces by the aces. A good shuttle player doesn't let if get blown to pieces that easily. If it was that easy, everyone would do it and Palp aces wouldn't be a thing.

But you seem to think that failing to kill the shuttle and ignoring everything else until that's done constitutes poor play and tactics.

Again, I'm not necessarily in the palp is overpowered camp, but the synergy and ease of user work aces is very good. My bigger gripe is the cheapness of the likes of soontir, Inq and OL for what they bring to the table.

In the time I've chased the shuttle down - probably 3 turns and begun shooting it, I'm getting whittled down by the aces. And soontir/whisper/Inq behind is a problem because I can't get turned around to catch them again. I find it better to try and limit the dog fighting to one on one and take the shuttle as a target of opportunity as it prsents itself.

In other words, you don't try to kill the Lambda, because you are afraid of the other ships. Which is exactly why people lose to Palp Aces.

Hint: the other ships are far scarier while the Lambda is on the board. Kill the f***ing Lambda.

I'm of the opinion the those that find killing the shuttle easily are playing mediocre opponents.

I'll let my opponents defend themselves, if they care to. All I can say is that since I'm a mediocre player myself, if I am playing mediocre opponents, we're evenly matched, and the mantra still holds. Kill the f***ing Lambda.

It is amazing to me how people can know that Palpatine is strong, and know that the longer he is on the board the more valuable he becomes, and yet not put the pieces together for the most effective anti-Palp Aces strategy. Kill the f***ing Lambda.

If you think you can win without killing the Lambda, that's fine. Go for it. But if you decide to do that, and you lose, you completely forfeit your right to be taken seriously when whining about how strong Palpatine is, as far as I'm considered. (And if you can do that and win, well why the f*** are you whining about Palpatine at all?) I will never taking whining about Palpatine seriously from people who insist that they don't need to kill the Lambda ... "but Palpatine is just soooo broken!"

Kill. The. F***ing. Lambda.

You just declared the Lambda to a global range 10 HP Biggs for 29 points. That is quite the efficient Biggs. Not that I disagree that killing the Lambda is a solid way to deal with Palpatine, but just blocking one of the two aces and burning it down is just as effective. It all really depends on turn-0 and the first approach.

And you as well completely ignore that you ain't killing Palpatine first, if his Whisper is one-shotting your Corran Horn, etc … so you do need to consider his two aces in your approach.

Still I agree kill Palpatine first, switch targets of opportunities, all Palp aces can die in a single turn if you get a good attack angle.

I fly imperial aces a lot and almost never use the emperor. If the emperor is all that where was he in this year's tournaments

Generally buzzing around the top 8.

Which is why people take umbrage with palp aces - they can reliably get you into a top 8 slot so lots of players play with them, but against a better player with a less common list, you won't get far.

That's the thing with Palp-aces - they're strong, but anyone who tips up at a tournament with the intention to win has a plan for them.

I remember having a walk around the hall at the UK games expo and just thinking "**** me that's a lot of Palp Aces and Jumpmasters".

I can't remember what won, but I don't think it was either (iirc it was a Crackswarm?)

I don't mind playing palp aces, but I do tire of people saying 'just kill the shuttle'. For me at least, where our local club level is quite high, I find it very difficult.

Out of sincere curiosity, why (and how) do you find it difficult? You need to do 13 damage or so to a 1-AGI target. For a modern list, that is two rounds of shooting.

The only times -- and I mean only times -- I ever see people struggle to kill the Lambda is when they don't actually try to kill the Lambda.

"But Soontir will get behind me!" "But Vader will get a TL and add a [crit]!" "But Omega Leader is too hard to kill in the endgame!"

Kill. The. F***ing. Shuttle. It's 10 HP behind 1 green die. Kill it.

Hmmm...

Yes and No.

Generally speaking I WILL try and kill the shuttle first, if my opponent brings it anywhere to bear.

However, you will often encounter players who will just park their shuttle on the back board, and 1/0/1/0/1 their way along. Depending on what list I have and how I'm approaching the game, this makes him a difficult target to engage without seriously putting myself in a bad position - you brush off people complaining about getting aces in behind them as if it's nothing, but that is a very serious problem to a lot of lists.

If my opponent is happy for his shuttle to fly around the board edge like an AWACs, achieving nothing with it's 3 red dice and blocking potential, then I'm happy to let my opponent have a free evade a turn until I can reasonably bring my guns to bear on the shuttle (usually after one of the aces is dead).

Simply sending everything you have headlong at a conservatively played shuttle is asking for your list to be incapable of defeating the 2 untouched aces you'll be facing after you've got him.

Resistance to the power of the dark side shrouded in jealousy will be met and destroyed....let your anger flow....

I'll just take your hypothetical matchup against Inquisitor and /x7 Vessery. I've killed both with my list, so I have a fair amount of experience dealing with them, though never in that exact combo.

I imagine I could just focus down the TIE Shuttle fairly easily, then treat the rest of the ships in the list as targets of opportunity.

Bombers, perhaps surprisingly to you, do not actually go down that easily. Two attacks will almost certainly not be enough, especially if you only have TLs (more on that below). Further I tend to run the shuttle behind my other ships and so it is not that easy to get to. You'll have to come through my list to get at the bomber. I've never had an opponent try and do what you just said you would do. They always go after my TIEs. Really smart players go after Rexlar, but that can be intimidating when he has two focus tokens, and often times doesn't do anything. "Go after the bomber first" sounds nice in theory, which is what you are going on, but hasn't actually worked for my opponents in practice.

that my Palpatine (if used offensively) can just autocrot them because it has no shields.

Here's where I know you've never run into a /D list before, particularly four ship /D lists that I've currently taken a liking too. You will not have either Palpatine or your focus/evade tokens for attacking. My list can and has one-shotted /x7 Defenders. You will spend everything to dodge the tractor beam. Or I'll just TB one of your ships onto an asteroid, or out of arc, or into range one of Mauler. But then that's why you're not going to have modifiers later, you will dodge it. Which will then be followed up by 3-4 more attacks. I will burn through all of your modifiers early and then get damage through with my TIEs.

An easy way of dealing with Palpaces is overwhelming firepower. It's something I've noticed a lot of players miss; they spend so much time trying to stay alive they miss the fact they're only putting out three three-dice attacks. My list puts out five attacks. It's also why I'm not a huge fan of /x7.

two remaining Acewings

I know you like to use that word, but just by using it doesn't in fact make your ships invincible. You will not be able to control range as much as you would like. I have PS on you with all of my ships that matter. You won't be able to arch dodge much either. I can and have taken out PS8 aces with a PS9 Mauler.

Mauler's ability only triggers at range 1.

It is trivial to get Mauler and Scourge into range 1. I do it literally all the time. They're TIEs, they're fast with barrel roll, and I abuse the 5-forward with wild abandon. Further you won't know where he is going, and so getting out of range 1 will be difficult for you. The Inquisitor hates getting into a brawl in the middle of the board, but that's exactly what my list does.

Scourge's ability only triggers if you have damage cards on one of my Acewings.

Or your shuttle. Why assume I go after your aces? Assuming my TIEs are at range one of the shuttle, I can put 14 red dice downrange at it, and you won't have agility because TB. That's actually overkill to a fair degree, I don't need them at range one to kill it. If we end up trading shuttle for shuttle (which assumes I blank on four evade dice, possible but I wouldn't bet on it), that's a trade I'm willing to make.

I don't think your list is bad per se, but your ships are a lot less invincible than you think they are, and they don't hurt as much as you think they will. If I kill one of your ships before you get to fire (which is quite possible), you will be in some serious trouble.

OGP with Palp, 2x x7 Defender, Wampa.

My list would literally eat this one alive. I've killed a three /x7 Defender list while only losing the shuttle. TB /D is a force multiplier the likes of which the game hasn't seen yet, it's goddamn unfair against one and two agility ships, and I think most people haven't quite figured that out yet.

I felt like defending my list, it did very well against the sorts of lists you peddle as being unbeatable.

*PGS-shaped crickets chirping*

Can we not turn personally directed comments into attacks?

I'll just take your hypothetical matchup against Inquisitor and /x7 Vessery. I've killed both with my list, so I have a fair amount of experience dealing with them, though never in that exact combo.

I imagine I could just focus down the TIE Shuttle fairly easily, then treat the rest of the ships in the list as targets of opportunity.

Bombers, perhaps surprisingly to you, do not actually go down that easily. Two attacks will almost certainly not be enough, especially if you only have TLs (more on that below). Further I tend to run the shuttle behind my other ships and so it is not that easy to get to. You'll have to come through my list to get at the bomber. I've never had an opponent try and do what you just said you would do. They always go after my TIEs. Really smart players go after Rexlar, but that can be intimidating when he has two focus tokens, and often times doesn't do anything. "Go after the bomber first" sounds nice in theory, which is what you are going on, but hasn't actually worked for my opponents in practice.

that my Palpatine (if used offensively) can just autocrot them because it has no shields.

Here's where I know you've never run into a /D list before, particularly four ship /D lists that I've currently taken a liking too. You will not have either Palpatine or your focus/evade tokens for attacking. My list can and has one-shotted /x7 Defenders. You will spend everything to dodge the tractor beam. Or I'll just TB one of your ships onto an asteroid, or out of arc, or into range one of Mauler. But then that's why you're not going to have modifiers later, you will dodge it. Which will then be followed up by 3-4 more attacks. I will burn through all of your modifiers early and then get damage through with my TIEs.

An easy way of dealing with Palpaces is overwhelming firepower. It's something I've noticed a lot of players miss; they spend so much time trying to stay alive they miss the fact they're only putting out three three-dice attacks. My list puts out five attacks. It's also why I'm not a huge fan of /x7.

two remaining Acewings

I know you like to use that word, but just by using it doesn't in fact make your ships invincible. You will not be able to control range as much as you would like. I have PS on you with all of my ships that matter. You won't be able to arch dodge much either. I can and have taken out PS8 aces with a PS9 Mauler.

Mauler's ability only triggers at range 1.

It is trivial to get Mauler and Scourge into range 1. I do it literally all the time. They're TIEs, they're fast with barrel roll, and I abuse the 5-forward with wild abandon. Further you won't know where he is going, and so getting out of range 1 will be difficult for you. The Inquisitor hates getting into a brawl in the middle of the board, but that's exactly what my list does.

Scourge's ability only triggers if you have damage cards on one of my Acewings.

Or your shuttle. Why assume I go after your aces? Assuming my TIEs are at range one of the shuttle, I can put 14 red dice downrange at it, and you won't have agility because TB. That's actually overkill to a fair degree, I don't need them at range one to kill it. If we end up trading shuttle for shuttle (which assumes I blank on four evade dice, possible but I wouldn't bet on it), that's a trade I'm willing to make.

I don't think your list is bad per se, but your ships are a lot less invincible than you think they are, and they don't hurt as much as you think they will. If I kill one of your ships before you get to fire (which is quite possible), you will be in some serious trouble.

OGP with Palp, 2x x7 Defender, Wampa.

My list would literally eat this one alive. I've killed a three /x7 Defender list while only losing the shuttle. TB /D is a force multiplier the likes of which the game hasn't seen yet, it's goddamn unfair against one and two agility ships, and I think most people haven't quite figured that out yet.

I felt like defending my list, it did very well against the sorts of lists you peddle as being unbeatable.

*PGS-shaped crickets chirping*

Okay.

I also have the shuttle, possibly with double mods in the fight because of FCS. I've killed Bombers fairly easily before with my list.

That Tractor Beam is only a 3 dice attack. Even if it's always 3 hits because of your neat TIE Shuttle I'm probably dodging it.

Mauler is still only Range 1.

Scourge is only better than an Academy pilot when damage cards are applied.

Your list may be able to occasionally beat Palp Aces, but assuming equal skill Palp Aces has the advantage. At least my variant does, which I'd argue is the best Palp Aces variant.

With Vessery I can simply consent to lose my Stealth Device and take a single plink damage eventually. There may be that turn where you finally force a damage through on Vessery and it will mean little.

I'm disappointed PGS. You're repeating yourself, and not even particularly well.

I'm getting the impression you don't really understand how my list actually works. I will admit it is not perfect and it has its limitations, as you so aptly like to point out.

I also get the impression however you don't really understand what you're facing. You see the pieces but fail to comprehend how they all work in tandem with each other. That you're not used to a list that runs right at you at top speed. I don't play the 2-4 turns of maneuvering game that so many people like too. The only one of your ships that likes that is the shuttle. The Inquisitors range one shenanigans don't mean crap against my list.

I'm also noticing that you keep focusing on my shuttle, like killing it will stop my ships from shooting you. It really doesn't. Oh, it's nice to have, but not actually essential past the initial joust. If it lives, which it often does, it spends its time wandering aimlessly around the back of the board trying to turn around while Rexlar destroys what remains of my opponents list.

I'm probably dodging it.

I'm counting on it. Seriously. The TB is a distraction, albeit one that will almost certainly herald the death of one of your aces if it hits. It's there to eat up modifiers. I get an evade token or Palpatine out of it (or both, as it sometimes happens)? I'm already ahead. You get that I'm throwing another 9-14 red dice at that same ship, right?

I also have the shuttle, possibly with double mods in the fight because of FCS.

I know how FCS shuttles work. I took one to second in a SC last season. They can be quite powerful, but they're also fairly ungainly. They're certainly no baffle shuttle, but I get what you're doing with Vessery.

Mauler is still only Range 1.

Scourge is only better than an Academy pilot when damage cards are applied.

Yes, that is what my pilot cards say. Thank you for reminding me. Did it perhaps cross your mind that I'm aware of my own lists limitations? That I do in fact plan around those limitations and try to use them to the best of my ability? That those pilot abilities are not actually the downside you try and make them out to be?

Also, Scourge isn't an Academy. He's PS9. That does quite a bit more than you'd think, especially against a list like yours that caps out at 8.

There may be that turn where you finally force a damage through on Vessery and it will mean little.

Killing him first. /D wrecks /x7. I've done this in game way too often for it to be a fluke. Like I said before, your ships are not as invincible as you think they are, and I've already one-shotted an /x7 defender with my list. Didn't even need the shuttles attack for it.

Your list may be able to occasionally beat Palp Aces

It's always beaten Palp Aces, but hey, what are tournament records for? I will admit I have only played it about a dozen times.

At least my variant does, which I'd argue is the best Palp Aces variant.

Out of curiosity, have you taken it to a 60+ player tournament? I'm actually curious how well it would do/did. My guess of course is that you'd run into one of several lists that hard counter high agility aces and you'd get taken to pasture and not make the cut. But maybe not.

Also, ever actually fought a competent Vader/Soontir? Also curious, I think it would have a field day with arc dodging.

Anyway if you have something interesting to add to the conversation, beyond just repeating ad nauseum that Mauler only works at range 1 (no ****, Sherlock), I'll probably reply.

I beat palp aces everytime I play against it. I am a total pro. I play 5 points down so i always have initiative. Here's the answer PGS, good luck.

Stuff

DarkArk, let me give you some advice. You'll never get anywhere with an argument with PGS, and not just because he's a troll.

You see, people who launch on a massive crusade about something being THE MOST OP THING IN THE UNIVERSE generally have most of their discussions in the wonderful world of theorywing where everything goes perfect for the OP LIST THAT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO BEAT.

I beat palp aces everytime I play against it. I am a total pro. I play 5 points down so i always have initiative. Here's the answer PGS, good luck.

Squadron details 95 points

Cartel Spacer [“Heavy Scyk” Interceptor, Targeting Computer, Tractor beam] (19) x 5

what an excellent way to waste 10 points