All the other cards you compare Palp to in the OP practically never see competitive play. If Palp was as good as them, he'd be played as often as them (as in never).

That being said, in hindsight of both Palp and Manaroo, I'm not sure no range restriction abilities are such a good idea, as they create scenarios where the optimal strategy is have 1/3 of your list just run away the whole game.

To be fair, he's not 8 points, he's 29+ points. The two-crew-slot stipulation means he's limited to just a pair of ship options in the game (excluding epic), and they're often not ships you'd otherwise take. A Doomshuttle saw rare play, but beyond that the Lambda was all but forgotten until Palp rocked in with a fancy swivel chair. He sometimes appears on a Decimator, but doing so means you're often reduced to a two ship list as a result.

Those 29+ points preclude other ships from being taken to a degree that you're building a list around fitting him in, rather than adding a crew to a ship you'd have taken anyway. Yes, he's powerful but you seriously pay for that power.

That Lambda is not a waste of 21 points. You're not seriously paying for that power, you're only paying 8 points. So when he triggers a bunch of times and you get 38 points of value from him, you've flown a 130 point list.

Honestly, the OGP Lambda by itself is one of the worst ships in the game. It objectively has the worst dial in the game. It has a front only firing arc, and if you get behind it, it takes the Lambda at least 3 turns to turn around. It's only purpose is to carry crew that can help your team. And with a single defense die, you can burn down those 10 HP really fast.

So Palp actually costs 8 plus the cost of the stupid shuttle to carry him. I mean, show me a SINGLE competitive list that uses the Lambda other than as a vehicle for Palpatine? No. No one uses that space cow to do anything other than hold Palp.

I have a friend in my meta who loves the design of the Lambda, so he keeps trying to use it successfully. Literally every non-Palp usage has been an unmitigated failure. So any argument that Palp doesn't cost 29 points is foolish. The added benefit of the actual ship that Palp sits on is almost nothing.

So since FFG is literally never, EVER going to errata a card that people paid $100 for, just stop. There are plenty of ways to beat a Palp Aces list, most of which involve blowing up the shuttle which you can accomplish in a 2 turns at most. Stop whining about Palp, there are LOTS of other builds/card that are overpowered when you look at all the cards in the game.

If the shuttle is so awful (it's actually not btw), isn't that proof that Palpatine is overpowered since he can carry the list so hard that you can waste 21 points on a shuttle and still have a list that dominates?

Because the shuttle is a useless waste of 21 points, right? Remember 86 double phantom, when people could drop 14 points from their list and still have an overpowered list that autowon games? If the shuttle is a waste of 21 points like you want me to believe, that means Palp Aces players are flying 79 double Acewing.

I beat a palp aces in the final round of Swiss at the Atlanta regional, against the guy that went on to win it. Made the cut, finished top 16.

I did it with 4 pilot skill 4 ships, and a single ps 8 without any repositioning ability. I'm sorry that you aren't very good at this game.

Too bad that you haven't figured out how to defeat Palp Aces...

You actually can't. Only way to beat it is to beat it in the list building phase and pretend that you beat it with skill instead of just matchup luck.

How would I beat my own Palp Aces squad that I consider to be the best one? Juke x7 Stealth Device Vessery, 31 point Inquisitor, and OGP Palp shuttle with FCS. I legitimately don't know how you'd beat it. The one time I've lost with it was to another Palp Aces squad, except it had prockets. Oh, and another time to a ~50 point Bossk party bus.

Pre-nerf Phantom had hard counters too and it still wrecked the game for a while.

Palp Shuttle vs. TIE Shuttle with Fleet Officer and Systems Officer. Palp Shuttle, no contest.

I normally don't like to drag myself into these discussion, but....

I went 4-2 at the Vancouver regional with a officer shuttle, making 16th out of 80-some players. My list:

Rexler Brath (39)

TIE Defender (37), Tractor beam (1), Veteran Instincts (1), TIE/D (0)

“Mauler Mithel” (18)

TIE Fighter (17), Veteran Instincts (1)

“Scourge” (18)

TIE Fighter (17), Veteran Instincts (1)

Gamma Squadron Pilot (24)

TIE Bomber (18), TIE Shuttle (0), Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1), Systems Officer (2), Fleet Officer (3)

In fact, not only did I beat every Imperial aces list I came up against, I beat a Palp aces list with it as well. Turns out having 5 attacks does a pretty good job of wearing down modifiers, especially when every one of my ships has at least two. I even ended up using Rexlar's ability multiple times.

After having used it fairly extensively since it came out, I think I like it more than Palpatine. It's also cheaper, which means I can take more ships. It gives way more in the way of modifiers, and I have found that the range restriction is not nearly the handicap people make it out to be.

PGS, your credibility would be better in these arguments if you didn't ignore posts that disproved your theories. The reason you believe your arguments are unbeaten is because you only address the counters that you can beat with repetition rather then with well reasoned debates. I've seen you do this all over the forum. In fact, you'll probably ignore this post, which only proves what I'm saying.

Got whipped by them pretty handily again recently, eh PGS?

I'm one of the only Palp Aces players in my area. I play it specifically because it's broken, and to keep track of how much value I get from Palpatine each game in order to prove just how broken he is.

Of course, when presented with this data, the response was that flying a 9 health Vessery or 6 health Inquisitor wasn't worth anything.

You are the problem then. If you are the only person playing it and you don't like it then STOP PLAYING IT. Imagine that you got your way and that Palpatine costs one epic point and go on with your life. There is no need to constantly flood the forums with your opinion that the card is broken. Be the change that you want to see in the world.

Go ahead, continue to point out that I'm negative and that I'm negative often and put me on your ignore lists.

I see people post they've got you on ignore and I don't get it. Reading your posts (and the reactions to them) are a guilty pleasure of mine. I imagine its the same thing that hooks people on watching Jerry Springer, Judge Judy, or Real Housewives.

Palpatine sure is fun to play WITH though!

Can you just make this post your signature?

I feel like that's a much simpler way to spam your rhetoric.

What an excellent argument, point out how often I make these points instead of actually addressing them. That won't make PGS feel vindicated or anything.

I should sit down and compile a list of times I was told this crap when I was (correctly) pointing out how much the phantom and fat turrets were ruining the game. How many times I was told to, "Stop using hyperbole because turrets take skill and don't ruin the game". Or classic meaningless semantics in order to avoid appearing to agree with me such as, "Is the Phantom super powerful? Yes. Is it game breaking? No".

Go ahead, continue to point out that I'm negative and that I'm negative often and put me on your ignore lists. That doesn't mean I'm wrong, hug boxers.

I've provided rebuttals many times, but you're unfortunately one of those people that just refuses to give ground and won't accept any evidence other than your own anecdotal experience.

Remind me - what was the 2015 Worlds Finals matchup again?

And how many Palp Aces were in the top 16? The answer is 2.

Make sure you properly document this instance where I clearly demonstrated how Palp Aces is not unbeatable.

Thanks.

Stop the winning, I don't have any trouble beating it.

Stop the winning...

I think your 'h' is masquerading as an 'n' and moved closer to its adopted relatives.

You're not forced to build a list full of creative, interesting puzzle piece upgrades and pilot abilities that rewards good flying. Nope, just stack hyper C-3PO on top of a pair of aces that can do 3 actions a turn. No range restriction, no funky upgrades you have to use.

Is it that time of the month already? Take the whine elsewhere please, we are over it kiddo.

Posting in a PGS thread is like participating in the speciale olympics

If the shuttle is a waste of 21 points like you want me to believe, that means Palp Aces players are flying 79 double Acewing.

Nah, they fly a 8 point Palpatine. Everything else is apparently irrelevant. Though I admit, having Palp using is ability not only global on the table, but multi-dimensional out from my cardbox under the bed, now that would be awesome. In thta case you would have a point about that double ace-wing as well. Unfortunately is Palpatine forced to be on the table, usually hiding behind 1 agility and 10 hp. Which means that the whole package is not as good as a Palp-Drawer list. Instead it cost me at least 29 points, which forces me to bring weaker aces than I would like too. Still a good deal for frickle green dice on fragile imperial aces? Hell, yeah.

Without Palp you end up losing games on a Whisper rolling 5 blanks against a unmodified defender shot with 2 hits and a crit.

Seismic Torps are a thing now and PGS thinks Palpatine is the dumbest card ever...

ba-dum-tiss!

PGS is probably only seeking for attention at this point but I will post in his thread anyways:

I remember KineticOperator called me out once about how wave 3 Joustwing wasn't as varied as wave 7 Acewing. That was pretty effective, almost admitted I was wrong, then I played a game against a Soontir Palp Deci where I scored 4 hits and my opponent converted blank blank focus into 4 evade results with his one health Soontir and I realized that I was in fact correct and that the game was better off with less variety but more core gameplay instead of Boostwing with invincible ships.

This is short list of things that counter Aces HARD:

1) Autoblaster Turrets,

2)R5-P8,

3)Feedback Array,

4) Zuckuss,

5) 4-Lom,

6) Vader,

7) Regenaration,

8) Omega Leader,

9) bumping,

10) higher PS,

11) equal PS with initiative bid,

12) Tactician,

13) Rebel captive,

14) R3-A2

15) Proximity Mines,

16) Conner Net,

17) Bombs with Sabine Wren

Most of the aforementioned things completely ignore if there is Palpatine or not - so if you are telling me that Soontir is invincible I can only laugh at your whining, ignorance and lack of skill.

The problem is Jumpmasters made a lot of aforementioned things a lot weaker - but it is not a fault of Palpatine but sheer stupidity of Jumpmasters.

P.S. Also don't tell me this old argument that you have to tailor list against Aces - yes you have to tailor your list, it is necessary element of skill in this game, last thing I want is being able to win with ragtag team of everything I randomly put in 100 pts list - game like this wouldn't be funny, nor it would require skill.

Have you seen the faces of palp players threatened to activate palp in fear of crackshot? Never have you seen an expression so beautiful. It's a golden ratio of grief, anger and disgust. And it doesn't even require you to spend a crackshot - it's free!

8 points wasted for a problem that never was..or was there?

Pressure is free, Palp is not.

If I understand what you're saying correctly...you think Palpatine should be usable in a TIE Shuttle?

Can you just make this post your signature?

I feel like that's a much simpler way to spam your rhetoric.

What an excellent argument, point out how often I make these points instead of actually addressing them. That won't make PGS feel vindicated or anything.

I should sit down and compile a list of times I was told this crap when I was (correctly) pointing out how much the phantom and fat turrets were ruining the game. How many times I was told to, "Stop using hyperbole because turrets take skill and don't ruin the game". Or classic meaningless semantics in order to avoid appearing to agree with me such as, "Is the Phantom super powerful? Yes. Is it game breaking? No".

Go ahead, continue to point out that I'm negative and that I'm negative often and put me on your ignore lists. That doesn't mean I'm wrong, hug boxers.

You're just a ray of sunshine (the preceding statement may contain trace quantities of sarcasm).

Really, I think that's the primary reason you get such a negative response here. You seem constitutionally unable to do anything but complain, make scornful comments. and demonstrate considerable arrogance. That you are treated as a ball and chain in this forum is hardly surprising given the response your conduct invites.

I'm honestly considering using you as a barometer for the end times. The moment you have a good humored and positive response to something or someone, I'm going to consider it a sign of doom and seek shelter underground.

Perhaps, just perhaps, if you couched your observations in anything other than disdain, negativity, and conceit, you might develop a more positive presence.

Palpatine sure is fun to play WITH though!

It's fun as well to fly against. It tastes like america when you blow up that darn shuttle and know that those two aces are not going to cut it against your list on their own. But as mentioned, I am all for a Rebel Yoda who prevents once per turn any dice modification on a target. And on a timing which prevents palpatine from being used, but after the defensive roll has been made.

Goomba always hates whatever is on top of the meta. Used to be PWTs for "design reasons."

Now that PalpAces is on top PWTs seem to be fine again given his lack of issue with a double PWT list.

I get hating Sand-Wing but at least be honest about your reasons here.

You saying that Goark sucks? Well not in epic. Goark with squads equiped with Swarm Tactics is evil. Blunt, Cracken and other rebel ships will have pilot skill 12 if Goark is still in play and all ships with swarm tactics in range 1. You will have a lot of ships with pilotskill 12 in the begining of combatphase. 12?! On more then 3 ships?!

Too bad that you haven't figured out how to defeat Palp Aces...

You actually can't. Only way to beat it is to beat it in the list building phase and pretend that you beat it with skill instead of just matchup luck.

How would I beat my own Palp Aces squad that I consider to be the best one? Juke x7 Stealth Device Vessery, 31 point Inquisitor, and OGP Palp shuttle with FCS. I legitimately don't know how you'd beat it. The one time I've lost with it was to another Palp Aces squad, except it had prockets. Oh, and another time to a ~50 point Bossk party bus.

Pre-nerf Phantom had hard counters too and it still wrecked the game for a while.

Wrong. Address this.

Palp Shuttle vs. TIE Shuttle with Fleet Officer and Systems Officer. Palp Shuttle, no contest.

I normally don't like to drag myself into these discussion, but....

I went 4-2 at the Vancouver regional with a officer shuttle, making 16th out of 80-some players. My list:

Rexler Brath (39)

TIE Defender (37), Tractor beam (1), Veteran Instincts (1), TIE/D (0) “Mauler Mithel” (18)

TIE Fighter (17), Veteran Instincts (1) “Scourge” (18)

TIE Fighter (17), Veteran Instincts (1) Gamma Squadron Pilot (24)

TIE Bomber (18), TIE Shuttle (0), Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1), Systems Officer (2), Fleet Officer (3)

In fact, not only did I beat every Imperial aces list I came up against, I beat a Palp aces list with it as well. Turns out having 5 attacks does a pretty good job of wearing down modifiers, especially when every one of my ships has at least two. I even ended up using Rexlar's ability multiple times.

After having used it fairly extensively since it came out, I think I like it more than Palpatine. It's also cheaper, which means I can take more ships. It gives way more in the way of modifiers, and I have found that the range restriction is not nearly the handicap people make it out to be.

PGS, your credibility would be better in these arguments if you didn't ignore posts that disproved your theories. The reason you believe your arguments are unbeaten is because you only address the counters that you can beat with repetition rather then with well reasoned debates. I've seen you do this all over the forum. In fact, you'll probably ignore this post, which only proves what I'm saying.

Sometimes I create a thread or a post that gets a bunch of responses to it and I don't have time to respond to them all. Sorry.

That list is composed of TIE Fighters and a Bomber, and a non-x7 Defender. I imagine I could just focus down the TIE Shuttle fairly easily, then treat the rest of the ships in the list as targets of opportunity.

Remember, I'm flying 31 point Inquisitor, Vessery with x7 Juke STealth Device, and OGP with Palp and FCS. I should be able to volley fire the shuttle down in one turn, then the rest of that list can be handled by my two remaining Acewings even if you focus down the shuttle. Bombers are actually fairly fragile especially considering that it might not have a defensive focus to cancel Juke, and that my Palpatine (if used offensively) can just autocrot them because it has no shields.

Mauler's ability only triggers at range 1.

Scourge's ability only triggers if you have damage cards on one of my Acewings. That's kind of hard to do.

It has some decent tricks in it, like being able to K-Turn your TIE Fighters and hand them focuses and perhaps a TL, but I don't see why you'd play that instead of my list, or OGP with Palp, 2x x7 Defender, Wampa.

The TIE Shuttle Fleet Officer Systems Officer combo is actually good unlike Esege, but Palp is so much better that I don't see much point in it.

You saying that Goark sucks? Well not in epic. Goark with squads equiped with Swarm Tactics is evil. Blunt, Cracken and other rebel ships will have pilot skill 12 if Goark is still in play and all ships with swarm tactics in range 1. You will have a lot of ships with pilotskill 12 in the begining of combatphase. 12?! On more then 3 ships?!

Would that be Goark Rarnet?

Sometimes I create a thread or a post that gets a bunch of responses to it and I don't have time to respond to them all. Sorry.

That list is composed of TIE Fighters and a Bomber, and a non-x7 Defender. I imagine I could just focus down the TIE Shuttle fairly easily, then treat the rest of the ships in the list as targets of opportunity.

I'd wager the PalpAces he obliterated thought the same thing.

As mentioned upthread, crackshot is the hard counter to palp. You see palp players so used to just getting their evade, and then you wipe it from existence.

Feels good man. At that Atlanta regional match I mentioned, that you've ignore for 2 pages, I was able to alpha the shuttle off the table, and he only got to palp once, which I cracked away. Tell me that was worth 8 points. Tell me it was worth close to 30.

Too bad that you haven't figured out how to defeat Palp Aces...

You actually can't. Only way to beat it is to beat it in the list building phase and pretend that you beat it with skill instead of just matchup luck.

How would I beat my own Palp Aces squad that I consider to be the best one? Juke x7 Stealth Device Vessery, 31 point Inquisitor, and OGP Palp shuttle with FCS. I legitimately don't know how you'd beat it. The one time I've lost with it was to another Palp Aces squad, except it had prockets. Oh, and another time to a ~50 point Bossk party bus.

Pre-nerf Phantom had hard counters too and it still wrecked the game for a while.

Wrong. Address this.

Palp Shuttle vs. TIE Shuttle with Fleet Officer and Systems Officer. Palp Shuttle, no contest.

I normally don't like to drag myself into these discussion, but....

I went 4-2 at the Vancouver regional with a officer shuttle, making 16th out of 80-some players. My list:

Rexler Brath (39)

TIE Defender (37), Tractor beam (1), Veteran Instincts (1), TIE/D (0) “Mauler Mithel” (18)

TIE Fighter (17), Veteran Instincts (1) “Scourge” (18)

TIE Fighter (17), Veteran Instincts (1) Gamma Squadron Pilot (24)

TIE Bomber (18), TIE Shuttle (0), Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1), Systems Officer (2), Fleet Officer (3)

In fact, not only did I beat every Imperial aces list I came up against, I beat a Palp aces list with it as well. Turns out having 5 attacks does a pretty good job of wearing down modifiers, especially when every one of my ships has at least two. I even ended up using Rexlar's ability multiple times.

After having used it fairly extensively since it came out, I think I like it more than Palpatine. It's also cheaper, which means I can take more ships. It gives way more in the way of modifiers, and I have found that the range restriction is not nearly the handicap people make it out to be.

PGS, your credibility would be better in these arguments if you didn't ignore posts that disproved your theories. The reason you believe your arguments are unbeaten is because you only address the counters that you can beat with repetition rather then with well reasoned debates. I've seen you do this all over the forum. In fact, you'll probably ignore this post, which only proves what I'm saying.

Sometimes I create a thread or a post that gets a bunch of responses to it and I don't have time to respond to them all. Sorry.

That list is composed of TIE Fighters and a Bomber, and a non-x7 Defender. I imagine I could just focus down the TIE Shuttle fairly easily, then treat the rest of the ships in the list as targets of opportunity.

Remember, I'm flying 31 point Inquisitor, Vessery with x7 Juke STealth Device, and OGP with Palp and FCS. I should be able to volley fire the shuttle down in one turn, then the rest of that list can be handled by my two remaining Acewings even if you focus down the shuttle. Bombers are actually fairly fragile especially considering that it might not have a defensive focus to cancel Juke, and that my Palpatine (if used offensively) can just autocrot them because it has no shields.

Mauler's ability only triggers at range 1.

Scourge's ability only triggers if you have damage cards on one of my Acewings. That's kind of hard to do.

It has some decent tricks in it, like being able to K-Turn your TIE Fighters and hand them focuses and perhaps a TL, but I don't see why you'd play that instead of my list, or OGP with Palp, 2x x7 Defender, Wampa.

The TIE Shuttle Fleet Officer Systems Officer combo is actually good unlike Esege, but Palp is so much better that I don't see much point in it.

Now, your argument is actually pretty good and contains points I agree with. Tie Shuttles can be pretty fragile. There is limitations to using some of the pilot abilities.

But there are some points that are ify, like with Rexler. A non-x7 defender is a bit of a risk, but TIE/D's are high risk/high reward ships. The double tap from a Tie/D on an ace is nerve racking. No matter what, the cannon shot cannot go through. That means the player will spend anything to prevent that hit. And after it's done, you still have a primary with Rexler. And possibly some of the other ties as well, if you've anticipated your opponent correctly.

The final thing I'd like to answer is why play DarkArk's list over a Palpaces list. Because it's different. Following meta might get you more consistent wins, but when a team you designed or decided would be fun to fly wins, you've actively change how other people view the ships you used. I won a store championship with a Rebel Aces list, and everyone one was taking a look at the Sabine w/PTL & Chewie I had, because she was a key ship in my team. I won because my team, strategy, and luck came together. Not because I went with what everyone else is flying. I don't mean to say that following the meta is bad, but if that's all we do, we won't find other builds that are good and fun to fly.

Yes, Palpaces is really strong. But it can be beaten with the right tools and tactics.

*sigh* You bring up a discussion worth having, but in a way that only discredits your point of view. If you have new, well reasoned arguments against my points, I welcome having a friendly debate with you. If not, then just ignore this. Your time is better spent looking at more solid facts, like the list Embir82 put up, than my impassioned arguments.

Shalom.