Hi

GreenKnight has made some spectacular updates to Armada Vassal, propelling it into the elite club of the best modules ever made for Vassal. I am speaking as someone who's made one for another game here and has played hundreds of hours of xwing vassal, so believe me when I say his work is genuinely exceptional.

The next thing that may need upgrading is us, the playerbase.

The vast majority of Armada opponents I have played have been courteous, good-sports and extremely challenging (thanks, ladies and gentlemen). However if there's room for improvement, it is in playing in a timely fashion and keeping your opponents informed of what's going on.

We're all slow while learning new game systems (and I would like to thank my opponents for their patience when I've got muddled too) but there have been a few reports of games that have gone unnecessarily long recently, with players taking over an hour for a turn. That probably wouldn't happen in real life with someone standing there prompting their opponent.

If you'd like to be the opponent you'd want to play, please

• Plan and execute your moves in reasonable time. Don't get rushed or flustered, but do get the job done.
• Don't spend too long measuring and remeasuring and remeasuring - sometimes there is no perfect move; sometimes your ship is going to hit that rock. Take reasonable time to assess, then get it done.
• ALWAYS tell your opponent if you are going to be away from keyboard. Don't leave them guessing!
• If you need a break, tell your opponent. They might want one too. Estimate your return time and try stick to it.
• Try to have minimal distractions when it's game time. If it's a scheduled game, don't put it in the middle of Game of Thrones, and certainly don't play any other games at the same time.
• Allow a little leeway; we're playing a simulation with no text on cards etc, so give the benefit of the doubt and play casual if you can manage. Most people will reciprocate.

If you think some of these ideas may not have occurred to your opponent, you can always give them the link to this thread. It might help them realise there are advantages to playing at a decent pace even in a game that is effectively always paused and has no time limit.

And by the way, this isn't unique to Armada - In xwing vassal, I once had dinner in the time it took for someone set Soontir's dial. They still hit the asteroid though, so the story has a happy ending.


Thanks, enjoy your games!

I'd like to second this!

First, let me point out that I'm guilty as charged - on occasion.

I sometimes fiddle too long with the man tool when moving a small, bendy guy. Or move a squad three times before finally putting it down. Or, more typically, get distracted by a kid, a crazy dog, the doorbell or whatnot.

That said, I make every effort to NOT be tardy, especially when playing tournament matches.

A little less so if playing a Sunday morning game or playing a little on the side at work (but if I am in slow-mode, I'll make sure my opponent knows it). But by and large I try to be fast, and I politely try to urge my proponent to be as quick as can be too.

Why? Because slow play is a real killer. I can get in a 2-3 hour game easily, but if it takes much longer than that...I probably can't finish the game.

Oh, one more thing:

Slow begets slow...

...if my opponent is slow, I will get distracted by other things - and feel no obligation to rush my moves. And he'll probably start feeling the same way in return...which slows down things even more. A bad circle if you will.

I sometimes fiddle too long with the man tool when moving a small, bendy guy.

Well ok then. I don't quite know how to respond to that post.

For skilled+ vassal players it's entirely possible to SET UP AND PLAY in less than THREE HOURS.

I once had a tourney game vs JJ, where I had this incredibly frail Neb-B squadron list and he had some weird Imperial **** he'd cooked up. But we still managed to do the whole thing in three hours, despite many small units that had to maneuver just right and lots of squadrons. So it can definitely be done.

So speed-up tips:

0. Use Skype or Teamspeak: the chat is nice, and the autor-reports really make it much simpler and faster, but nothing beats voice for speed.

1. Come prepared: have your list ready, objectives included. Provide your opponent with a link to a builder view, so he can verify points.

2. Deploy by vlog: always try to have a vlog ready!

3. Know thy shortcuts: you don't need to know ALL of them, but learn the key ones (hull, speed, shields, maneuver tool, range/distance bands etc)

4. Pay attention: watch the screen, watch the chat, it's a simple as that.

5. Use the SET button: if not on voice, signal you're done with the SET (CTRL+ENTER)

6. Don't over-measure: this is a BIG ONE! One of the curses of vassal is that it so f***ing accurate. You can know, don to a pixel, where you can move and how far gunnery ranges extend. You can't do that on the table. So don't try to do it on vassal!!!

7. Squads: turn on the distance band, drag to squad to where you want it, then turn off the band. Simple, fast. Taking back your move and adjusting is really measuring with more than one tool, since you first measure distance, then put down a marker (the squadron), then measure once more.

8. Don't fret too long, decide: accuracy use...defense token use...where to redirect to...these things can really drag out. Don't go there. Just decide and move on.

So basically all this comes down to: avoid slow play!

My pet peeve is no. 6 above: endless fiddling with the maneuver tool, checking and rechecking fire arcs and ranges, again and again.

I sometimes fiddle too long with the man tool when moving a small, bendy guy.

My pet peeve is no. 6 above: endless fiddling with the maneuver tool, checking and rechecking fire arcs and ranges, again and again.

I'm a serial fiddler (phrasing be damned), but I reckon I do okay time-wise. Typing sound effects is quicker than you think.

Next Vassal game I do, I will do absolutely the opposite of every point listed above !

One thing to look for are the disconnects too. It happened several times, and opponents should be courteous to understand that a delay might occur through a D/C rather than distractions

Having recently played a 6+ hours game, I think vassal slowplay is only part of the issue: my fleet has 5 ships and 10 squadrons, and it's a LOT of models to push around, many more than wave 2 allowed me to field. If 2 such fleets clash against each other, 3 hours limit will just not cut it IMO, even when making no mistakes at all.

Having recently played a 6+ hours game, I think vassal slowplay is only part of the issue: my fleet has 5 ships and 10 squadrons, and it's a LOT of models to push around, many more than wave 2 allowed me to field. If 2 such fleets clash against each other, 3 hours limit will just not cut it IMO, even when making no mistakes at all.

See I dont buy that. The issue is usually that people are trying new fleet ideas and that takes longer as the order of activations isnt obvious in these situations.

However.

Lets put this into context, you are testing a new fleet idea, so test. Testing doesnt mean getting everything perfect, it means trying things out and seeing what happens!

When Clon came up with his 8 CR90B with engine techs idea he played a game against my Rieekan squads list. We finished that game in an hour and a half, and that wasnt because he tabled me quickly. The game went all the way to turn 6. The key to fast play was that we both knew our fleets and so activation order was second nature. Sure we slowed a little for a couple of crucial maneuvers, but the rest were very quick.

We both came with a plan, and the game was quick as a result.

Recently I have been browsing forums etc whilst playing. I apologise for this and endeavour to go back to super quick activations.

I am certainly one of the slower players, but I am improving with shortcuts, etc.

People react differently, but what I definitly experience is that they underestimate how long they themselves take. Might be that Green Knights "bad circle" plays a part in that, but I also have seen moves with endless trying where there was no real alternative (natural that this is only ever evident for the opponent, never for oneself who desperately tries to save ones ship) while being reminded by those same players that I am slow.

I think a main part of the difference is that I never tell that the other guy (cause I genuinely dont mind), oc he then thinks he isnt slow.

GK and the other programmer are doing a hell of a great job, but still, albeit improving, fiddling with mouse, commands, cloning a token, remember which token on the ship is Nr 1 and which Nr 3 etc takes more time for me then just flipping a token on a real table. It accumulates. And there are players who play every day, using the interface is second nature to them.

In any case, apologies for the trying times I might and will have given some players. A bit more self criticism, as GK has shown, would be appreciated though from players who keep up the pressure. Due to the unpersonal nature of playing via internet, I feel much more rushed and obliged to move then I would ever on a real table. And its a strategy game after all, some moves simply take time, especially when you have 5 ships interplaying. Why would I play such a game if thinking about the best course is such a problem (although I realize that the very best players have a kind of innate skill that lets them decide quick and still be right much more often than not...I salute and envy them).

I feel caught red handed (considering the measuring of squad movement). And I think, you are right. Normally it takes me 3 hours for a Vassal game. My last two tourney games were a lot longer. And I couldn't say that the games benefit from it. I'll try to eat more dark side carrots in order to be less clumsy and slow.

Thanks to the programmers also from my side. You have done a great job!

Having recently played a 6+ hours game, I think vassal slowplay is only part of the issue: my fleet has 5 ships and 10 squadrons, and it's a LOT of models to push around, many more than wave 2 allowed me to field. If 2 such fleets clash against each other, 3 hours limit will just not cut it IMO, even when making no mistakes at all.

See I dont buy that. The issue is usually that people are trying new fleet ideas and that takes longer as the order of activations isnt obvious in these situations.

However.

Lets put this into context, you are testing a new fleet idea, so test. Testing doesnt mean getting everything perfect, it means trying things out and seeing what happens!

This is even another perspective to look at things: with new toys to play with, one needs to get used to the new movement chart and upgrades, the ruling is not clear as it used to be in wave 2 which we've been using for 7+ months, and a result it takes much more time to get things done.

Sure this is an issue, but it's another point in my favor: as a player who used to get his games done mostly in a couple hours, I feel that with wave 3 and 4 the time it takes to finish a game sky rocketed and I expect to see a progressive decrease within the next couple of months, as soon as people try the new stuff on tabletop and get used to it.

I would also like to say that Vassal programmers have done a hell of a job. I feel it has helped move Armada forward light years more than just table top could have.

I have to agree with Miedomeda. I think with new ships and rules updates, we "slow players" are just adjusting to changes.

I Kinda disagree with Ginkapo though

Having recently played a 6+ hours game, I think vassal slowplay is only part of the issue: my fleet has 5 ships and 10 squadrons, and it's a LOT of models to push around, many more than wave 2 allowed me to field. If 2 such fleets clash against each other, 3 hours limit will just not cut it IMO, even when making no mistakes at all.

See I dont buy that. The issue is usually that people are trying new fleet ideas and that takes longer as the order of activations isnt obvious in these situations.

However.

Lets put this into context, you are testing a new fleet idea, so test. Testing doesnt mean getting everything perfect, it means trying things out and seeing what happens!

When Clon came up with his 8 CR90B with engine techs idea he played a game against my Rieekan squads list. We finished that game in an hour and a half, and that wasnt because he tabled me quickly. The game went all the way to turn 6. The key to fast play was that we both knew our fleets and so activation order was second nature. Sure we slowed a little for a couple of crucial maneuvers, but the rest were very quick.

We both came with a plan, and the game was quick as a result.

Recently I have been browsing forums etc whilst playing. I apologise for this and endeavour to go back to super quick activations.

I've played the fleet I'm playing in this latest tourney exactly once. I don't know how many times it takes playing a fleet to "Know" it, but I think it's more than that. And I may be doing it wrong. Maybe I should be playing my fleets 5-10 times prior to attempting to vassal them in tourneys, but I don't have that kind of time. I'm a casual player. I play the online tourneys AS my practice for RL events, because I feel that this community is the best competition out there, and I'm only going to get better if I play better folks. Don't get me wrong, I completely agree that slow play due to trying all the options is killing these vassal games, but I also believe in assessing your options for a few seconds before just "run and gun try something".

But as a person who considers himself as a slower player, I apologize and will take the tips to heart. It is good advice. Thanks again GK, for all you do for this community.

An on call ref.

Overall I think people do a really good job to call out to whomever is watching their game for opinions. Dunno, maybe we get to the point where Vassal is so active that a "ref" attribute of sorts might make sense......

On the slow play, it happens. It is pretty easy to start up a game and multitask (in which case I always say to the other player, are you ok with gaming this out fairly slow because I'll be whatever whatever in the background.)

I could see a few changes to the UI to speed things up. Take a speed 4 ship, having to move through all 4 spots on the movement tool isn't exactly fast... click click click :-)

Yeah, I'm already a somewhat slower player, and Vassal makes it take way longer for me two areas: 1) I like to check the real cards before doing stuff; 2) it takes longer to do basic actions.

For #1, I still haven't internalized things like what anti-squad dice does Rhymer get, or which dice does an ISD1 get out of the rear arc, because I haven't played those a lot. In live games, I can glance at my cards and ship tokens, or my opponent's cards and ship tokens, and make a relatively quick decision about things like: is it safe to move into medium range on a ship's side arc, or should I stay at long? Yesterday in my game with Miedomeda, I was unfamiliar with just about every aspect of both of our fleets! It usually means before I make a move, I have to check my ship's card, check my opponent's cards on one or two ships, and switching back and forth between Vassal and the ship builder and scrolling to the right cards takes time.

For #2, sometimes just exhausting a command token takes time, because I invariably flip a defense token, then undo, then exhaust the wrong command token, then undo, and then exhaust the right token on the 3rd try. And during that time, I'm having to zoom in and out to see what tokens I have. Another example is exhausting an upgrade card: Zoom out, scroll up to my fleet, right click, click, then scroll back, takes longer than just turning the card that's right next to your hand in real life. All these things really do add up.

So sometimes I might take a while to make a maneuver on a key move, but that is a VERY small percentage of where my time goes compared to the above. I only play a Vassal game maybe once every 3 weeks, but I really want to get better at it. I LOVE that I can play with people outside my area and in other countries, and see strategies I wouldn't normally see. So please don't take the above in any way as complaining about Vassal. I just hope people can be a little understanding of my slowness and lack of practice. I do think in cases where Teamspeak is an option, that helps a lot: I can ask a quick question and get a response without us having to type back and forth.

And Miedomeda and I played a long time but I think we both had fun, so at least we had fun for over 6 hours. Hopefully that counts for something!

I have to say that my slow play is due to not. The shortcuts as well. I am getting use to using shortcuts on the man tool which is useful.

Knowing your list helps a lot or at least have a plan.

This is the reason why I have yet to play a game of Vassal. I am so unbelievably terrified of playing slow and inconveniencing another player because even though I have spent hours trying to set up a game , learn the tools, learn the shortcuts, etc on my own so I might become a speedy player there is just so much there to take in.

I don't know if I will ever actually play a game, because I would rather not participate than frustrate my opponent.

I could see a few changes to the UI to speed things up. Take a speed 4 ship, having to move through all 4 spots on the movement tool isn't exactly fast... click click click :-)

It's on my list of things to look at, but all I can guarantee is I'll look at it, eventually.

This is the reason why I have yet to play a game of Vassal. I am so unbelievably terrified of playing slow and inconveniencing another player because even though I have spent hours trying to set up a game , learn the tools, learn the shortcuts, etc on my own so I might become a speedy player there is just so much there to take in.

I don't know if I will ever actually play a game, because I would rather not participate than frustrate my opponent.

Don't be. Very are terribly accommodating vs new players.

Me, on the other hand, I have no excuses for how I fiddle the tool.

This is the reason why I have yet to play a game of Vassal. I am so unbelievably terrified of playing slow and inconveniencing another player because even though I have spent hours trying to set up a game , learn the tools, learn the shortcuts, etc on my own so I might become a speedy player there is just so much there to take in.

I don't know if I will ever actually play a game, because I would rather not participate than frustrate my opponent.

As long as at the very start of the game you tell your opponent that it is your first time they have no reason to be fustrated. We've all been there, we've all played really slow for our first couple of games.

If its my evening and I dont want a slow game I might not want to play you for your first game, but if its an afternoon game then sure, happy for it to take a while.

> Make private room.

> Put models on fake table.

> Learn most used shortcuts.

> Visualize.

This is the reason why I have yet to play a game of Vassal. I am so unbelievably terrified of playing slow and inconveniencing another player because even though I have spent hours trying to set up a game , learn the tools, learn the shortcuts, etc on my own so I might become a speedy player there is just so much there to take in.

I don't know if I will ever actually play a game, because I would rather not participate than frustrate my opponent.

As long as at the very start of the game you tell your opponent that it is your first time they have no reason to be fustrated. We've all been there, we've all played really slow for our first couple of games.

If its my evening and I dont want a slow game I might not want to play you for your first game, but if its an afternoon game then sure, happy for it to take a while.

Yeah although I was just mentioning how slow I am at it, I still really enjoy it. Just jump in! I bet someone on this thread would be happy to help walk you through it. Or try it with someone you know. That's what I did when starting out; then we were both learning together. It's actually quite easy to learn, it's just that some things are quicker in real life games.

And I also want to note some big advantages to playing in Vassal than on real life:

1) You can play at times you wouldn't normally be able to, with people you wouldn't normally be able to.

2) You can undo! Bumping ships happens in Vassal just like in real life, but you can easily undo and get the ship exactly where it was.

3) You can save a game and pick it up later. No need to leave your ships on your dining room table undisturbed for a week!

4) You can play with ships/upgrades before they are officially released! (Note to Green Knight: don't worry the UI stuff if it means you won't have time to add expansions )

#3 is a HUGE benefit. If you know you are a slow player, you can let your opponent know, and maybe you can arrange to play over multiple sessions. Even with my regular local crew, we will sometimes play over Vassal because it's just more convenient.

I could see a few changes to the UI to speed things up. Take a speed 4 ship, having to move through all 4 spots on the movement tool isn't exactly fast... click click click :-)

It's on my list of things to look at, but all I can guarantee is I'll look at it, eventually.

It's all awesome GK. Not only do you have to invest free time but live within the confines of a framework which limits which is possible.

Thanks again for all you do!