Sorry. You say that you think cooperative is lame. But you don't explain why cooperative is necessarily lame.

No, I exactly said why particular game, X-WIng, is lame as a cooperative activity. Here I quote it for you:

Instead of reading your oponent, trying to figure out where he moves and outsmart him, it pushes some boring cooperative play without greatest X-Wing asset - hidden movement mechanic.

You call "hidden movement" the greatest X-Wing asset. However, a great part of the competitive meta focuses on squads where hidden movement is irrelevant : high PS ships with repositioning don't care what you select in your dials. They will dial a safe standard move, then reposition as needed.

It is completely false. Of course squads with higher PS got a lot more room for error but I have yet to see or participate in game where guessing moves of my oponent was irrelevant.

In any case, my opinion is that competitive players already have plenty with the current X-Wing, both in the standard torunament format, and in the missions included with every core set and bigger expansion pack.

It is the group of cooperative players that is lacking any official content, and what HotAC has proved is that cooperative play can be and actually is awesome in X-Wing. It's a different game format using the same game components.

X-Wing never was and is not a game designed with cooperative play in mind. In my opinion possible campaign should be designed as two player direct confrontation conflict. Only this way you can make use of the greatest strenght of this game - hidden movement mechanics.

It is matter of opinion and in my opinion cooperative play is not awesome in X-Wing, nor it will ever be.

Well, You're right that this is *your* opinion about co-op in general and HotAC in specific. It is undeniable that HotAC has a strong following here, and one that ranges from the most casual type of player to the most competitive (Mynock squadron, for example). It's not your cup of tea, fine.

That said, I have to say that the AI mechanics in HotAC are really quite well-made, and are only moderately predictable, while their baked-in action economy advantages make them a credible threat that is fun for me and many others to play against. And while it is not true that maneuver selection is irrelevant in the current metagame, it is less relevant, or perhaps more forgiving, than it used to be, owing to proliferation of repositioning abilities and turreted ships.

After all that, though, I do absolutely agree that there is an unmet demand for a PvP campaign, and that a well made PvP campaign would have the capacity to foster intensely competitive, dynamic, fresh, and dramatic games of X-wing.

I'm guessing FFG would make a competitive campaign....at least as a first one. Why remake HotAC when there is HotAC? Well, at least until the alternative is done.

I can see HotAC to be done like Descent or campaign Imperial Assault. That's where there is a GM who controls the bad guys. That would eliminate the whole issues anyone had with the AI. It might also help those that want to fly Imperials, as well.

I think when (WHEN not if) FFG releases a campaign, it will be similar to IA, with a Imperial player. You can play HotAC this way as well, you have to use more house rules but you can do it.

I don't think there is any demand for a PvP campaign.
That is what the GR-75, CR-90, Raider, and Gozanti already bring to the table, and even when now and then you hear praises for them, most of the competitive scene in X-Wing basically ignore all kind of premade missions and focus 99% on the tournament format, that is competitiveness at its purest form.

Mission Control was there from almost the beginning, to make possible the creation of user made competitive missions and campaigns. How much you hear of it? Basically nothing. It never left beta, and it has not been updated since wave 6 or 7.
However HotAC is discussed at least once every week in these forums and has a huge traction. There is movement about making a Villains of the Aturi Cluster and Mercenaries of the Aturi Cluster spin-offs. There is continous talks about integrating the new ships into the campaign, etc.

And you know why? Because cooperative players and competitive players prefer totally different style of gameplay pacing.
A competitive player likes one thing above anything else: to compete. And to compete more is better than to compete less. So in the time that it takes to play 1 campaign mission or 1 mission in the competitive epic campaigns, they could instead play 3 or 4 tournament format games. And that is what they do. And that is why Mission Control and the epic campaigns pale in attention compared to the tournament format. It does now, and it ever will.

I don't think there is any demand for a PvP campaign.

That is what the GR-75, CR-90, Raider, and Gozanti already bring to the table, and even when now and then you hear praises for them, most of the competitive scene in X-Wing basically ignore all kind of premade missions and focus 99% on the tournament format, that is competitiveness at its purest form.

Mission Control was there from almost the beginning, to make possible the creation of user made competitive missions and campaigns. How much you hear of it? Basically nothing. It never left beta, and it has not been updated since wave 6 or 7.

However HotAC is discussed at least once every week in these forums and has a huge traction. There is movement about making a Villains of the Aturi Cluster and Mercenaries of the Aturi Cluster spin-offs. There is continous talks about integrating the new ships into the campaign, etc.

And you know why? Because cooperative players and competitive players prefer totally different style of gameplay pacing.

A competitive player likes one thing above anything else: to compete. And to compete more is better than to compete less. So in the time that it takes to play 1 campaign mission or 1 mission in the competitive epic campaigns, they could instead play 3 or 4 tournament format games. And that is what they do. And that is why Mission Control and the epic campaigns pale in attention compared to the tournament format. It does now, and it ever will.

• If there were no demand for a PVP campaign, then we wouldn't see the subject come up every 3 months. Is there enough for FFG to make a product about it? That's another question.
• Mission Control has not been around since the beginning as I've been playing since Wave 1 and I wished it was around a lot sooner. Also, they pretty much left it half built. It's pretty impossible to use and there are no search/tagging functions worth a darn. it's kind of like half building a play ground and then thinking that no kids want to play on playgrounds as you don't see anyone on the half built one.
• It's absurd to lump all players into those that love tournament games or those that love co-op play. Most gamers like all sorts of ways to play. There are some that only like a specific type of game, but most prefer numerous types. I've known hard core tournament types that would like to play in a campaign in the off season. It's not a binary system.

I don't think there is any demand for a PvP campaign.

There clearly is a demand, the mere fact that we're talking about is proof there's a demand. How well such a thing would sell... That's harder to say but the Armada campaign could give some idea.

Mission Control was there from almost the beginning

You know, 30 seconds showed me that Mission Control was released in Aug 2014 and the first core set was released in sept 2012, about two years before Mission Control. And as Heychadwick points out it's never really worked very well or gotten any updates since it was released.

A competitive player likes one thing above anything else: to compete.

No, what a competitive player wants to do most is play competitively. A simple DM isn't the only way to play competitively.

So in the time that it takes to play 1 campaign mission or 1 mission in the competitive epic campaigns, they could instead play 3 or 4 tournament format games.

That is again simply untrue. Sure some missions could take 3-4 hours but a number of games have missions that can be played in an hour or so. Missions don't inherently take longer. In fact some missions can be over much faster than a standard DM will be.

And that is why Mission Control and the epic campaigns pale in attention compared to the tournament format.

Well since you're wrong about both those above points you're clearly wrong here as well. The reason why the DM gets all the attention is because that's what they use in tournaments, and because it's fun.

But as was pointed out above, or in another thread perhaps... Most other tabletop games, in fact nearly every other table top game uses some sort of objective system for casual or tournament play.

Infinity does, malifaux does, 40k does, Sigmar does, Flames of War does, Warmahordes does, Armada does... X-Wing is actually fairly unique in the lack of objective tournament games.

This would be a fantastic opportunity to bring in missing titles and pilots, like Rogue and Wraith squadron without needing a dedicated expansion.

While I love playing DM games with my friends, I have several who have no interest in a miniatures game that is only about head to head battles. I've talk to them about Playing HotAC when I have the money to print all the items needed to play them. They are far more positive toward a co op campaign then a DM. If Fantasy Flight come out with an official campaign it would be far easier to get them interested in our plastic crack addiction and just maybe get them to play DM games with the rest of us. One of them spent a fortune on 40K and the local group who got into it stop playing it a short time after he got in, I think he got to play maybe 3 games. This has made him incredibly shy towards any miniatures games.

For those of you who think a campaign is a horrible way to play this game, please remember this could be a great way to introduce the game to others and would increase the longevity of this game. If this game suddenly ended right now It would probably be played for a couple more years as everyone debated on keeping there collections or selling them while they were still worth something. Or a campaign set could come out with a couple of minis and a lot of cardboard ships the same size as the stands would take for ships. (so you could use your minis or the card board) And keep this game alive for ten or twenty years down the road. A co-op campaign wouldn't take anything form the current game, it would add to it and make an even larger group of people have a reason to keep this game around as long as possible.

For all of us on every topic please remember even you don't like the idea doesn't mean it's a bad one. And just because some gives an opinion you don't agree with doesn't always make them wrong. They could be right in the end.

Maybe the box set includes, say, a Pelta-class frigate (Rebel Campaign!) a Arquitens-class Imperial light cruiser (Imperial Campaign) or a Mandalorian corvette? (Scum campaign!)

I'm juuuuuuuuuuuuuuat sayin'.

a Arquitens-class Imperial light cruiser (Imperial Campaign)

I'd buy that.

JimCanuck

Maybe the box set includes, say, a Pelta-class frigate (Rebel Campaign!) a Arquitens-class Imperial light cruiser (Imperial Campaign) or a Mandalorian corvette? (Scum campaign!)

I'm juuuuuuuuuuuuuuat sayin'.

I had the pleasure of chatting with Alex Davy at Celebration recently. I mentioned this exact thing to him, in light of the Armada reveal and HOTAC. While he obviously couldn't comment on anything specific, he did say that they were aware of the interest in such an expansion.

Who knows? But with the seemingly growing interest in mission-based play and podcasts like Shuttle Tyderium, I wouldn't be surprised to see a campaign box at some point.

Well since you're wrong about both those above points you're clearly wrong here as well. The reason why the DM gets all the attention is because that's what they use in tournaments, and because it's fun.

I usually talk in hyperbole and so, I am usually wrong if my words are taken to the letter.

Of course there must be at least some demand on a competitive campaign, even if it is testimonial.

And Mission control came out about 1 year and a half after the game was released (the game is now almost 4 years old, so for me that was the beginning, even before I started playing the game).

What I am talking about is not about my particular tastes here. Neither that I think people shouldn't get a longer, official competitive campaign.

I would love to get an official competitive campaign from FFG. I am just saying that it will either not happen, or if it does, it will be a flop. I trust FFG has competent market prospectors to know the right answer.

I am talking about what I see in these forums and in my local environments (actually 2 different countries I travel between quite often).

I have tried, many times, to play the epic campaigns with people here. Or even the most praised normal missions from the large ship expacks like the Agressor one, or the one that comes with the Imperial Veterans. O the ones in the core sets.

I always get the same attitude: sure, it could be cool. But instead we could play another tournament format game, to practice for the next tournament that always is in the coming two weeks.

There is always some tournament somewhere nearby, and everyone is always trying out new stuff to practice for whichever comes next. If they played anything other than deathmatch, then they would be "wasting" their little game time they have on "silly" missions.

Other than two or three people, most competitive people I know consider playing deathmatch as training, while missions are basically worthless passtimes.

I am not saying that I agree with that vision. I find that mentality crushingly discouraging for me to keep interest on the game. I am so sick of variations of Jumpmasters and Palpaces facing each other like in a sort of eternal Ragnarok.

If FFG releases a competitive campaign, I foresee two different scenarios:

- The campaign comes with stuff usable and good for standard format, like ships or cards. Then the forums will boil with complains about having to buy something they don't want to stay competitive in the meta. Soon after, the campaign books will go and give company to the Imperial Raider, while they gather dust.

- The campaign doesn't come with anything usable in standard format. In that case, only those totally bored with the tournament format, or those that just buy one of everything, will be the ones purchasing that campaign. The rest of the stock will stay on the shelves or be in clearance soon after.

HOTAC looks and sounds brilliant, but the hassle of printing the pieces and the uncertaintly over whether it's a final product likely lead to many not playing it. There's still ample market space for an official set and it's certainly gaining traction.

And an official campaign has the capacity to have a huge impact on the way that people can play the game, and I think that's why it's such a great idea. How often does an expansion have a chance to drastically expand on the mechanics of a game and open it up to wholly new way of playing? A campaign can turn this 2-player dogfight chess game into a story-based co-operative multiplayer experience. By contrast, the current Missions set seem like a side thing or distraction. Once it happens, I think we could see many people changing their entire attitude towards the game.

I usually talk in hyperbole and so, I am usually wrong if my words are taken to the letter.

Of course there must be at least some demand on a competitive campaign, even if it is testimonial.

And Mission control came out about 1 year and a half after the game was released (the game is now almost 4 years old, so for me that was the beginning, even before I started playing the game).

Well.....if you consider that it came out at Gencon in 2012....then it would be 2 years. So, half the time that X-wing has been out. I dither because I was there for those first 2 years without it.

I would love to get an official competitive campaign from FFG. I am just saying that it will either not happen, or if it does, it will be a flop.

I am talking about what I see in these forums and in my local environments (actually 2 different countries I travel between quite often).

I have tried, many times, to play the epic campaigns with people here. Or even the most praised normal missions from the large ship expacks like the Agressor one, or the one that comes with the Imperial Veterans. O the ones in the core sets.

I always get the same attitude: sure, it could be cool. But instead we could play another tournament format game, to practice for the next tournament that always is in the coming two weeks.

There is always some tournament somewhere nearby, and everyone is always trying out new stuff to practice for whichever comes next. If they played anything other than deathmatch, then they would be "wasting" their little game time they have on "silly" missions.

Other than two or three people, most competitive people I know consider playing deathmatch as training, while missions are basically worthless passtimes.

Now...I completely understand where you are coming from with these statements. Having been in the game for a while, I did get burnt out on the tournament scene probably quicker than others in my area. Still.....if you just go to the game store on weekly game night and do it during tournament season, I can easily see that you get frustrated. I've found that it takes a bit of prep to get those epic or mission games in. In fact, I have a podcast episode where I talk about advice to starting/finding players for non-tournament games. I can probably toss out a couple high points here:

• Post tournament season is a good time to ask. Depending on where you live, after Regionals, Nationals, etc people are done with the tournament scene. There isn't another tournament kit until December. If you live in the mid-west US and can actually go to all the events nearby, you might be screwed, but in my part of the country, it dies down after Regionals. People don't need to practice for a tournament. They are also burnt out a bit on X-wing tournament games. It's the perfect time to find someone to try something different.
• You need to spend a couple of weeks looking for people to play Epic. Post on whatever social media your local group uses. Put up posters or chat with people in your area. I've done so and found someone who lives an hour away be willing to drive to a game store on a specific night of my choosing just to play Epic as he was that excited about it. There are often people who linger in gaming groups that aren't regulars that are just dying to try out Epic. They just need to know about it and you need to advertise it. Make a stink about how you want to play Epic in a few weeks time x store and I bet you will find people.
• If you own enough minis, host a demo game. I bought the CR-90 and wanted to use it. There was a local board game and RPG convention at the local university. I found out it was free admission if I hosted 3 games. I brought 200 pts vs 200 pts of my own stuff and ran a game for people that had never played it before. Everyone got 50 pts (except CR-90). It was a hoot! People had a good time and I got to use my models. I also found a few recruits who were more than interested in it. So, set up a demo game with the store and have them put up posters and/or talk to potential customers.
• Host some crazy event, like the Hunger Games or Bounty Hunter Rodeo. If it's prizes that bring people out, then charge $5 and have prizes. Or just do it for fun.

I've found that it takes a bit of effort to find people willing to play variant types of X-wing. It sometimes takes a while, but I've found it worth it.

I think a lot of the death-match people would like an occasional change up, and playing a "different" game that is still X-Wing would get a lot of people to play. Many of our locals only play X-Wing, they have tried other games but they don't stick with them, a co-op X-wing with some PvP in the mix would get some of them for sure. I have several interested in HotAC, but I think a PvP version would get their interest more.

I am talking about what I see in these forums and in my local environments (actually 2 different countries I travel between quite often).

I have tried, many times, to play the epic campaigns with people here. Or even the most praised normal missions from the large ship expacks like the Agressor one, or the one that comes with the Imperial Veterans. O the ones in the core sets.

I always get the same attitude: sure, it could be cool. But instead we could play another tournament format game, to practice for the next tournament that always is in the coming two weeks.

There is always some tournament somewhere nearby, and everyone is always trying out new stuff to practice for whichever comes next. If they played anything other than deathmatch, then they would be "wasting" their little game time they have on "silly" missions.

Other than two or three people, most competitive people I know consider playing deathmatch as training, while missions are basically worthless passtimes.

I am not saying that I agree with that vision. I find that mentality crushingly discouraging for me to keep interest on the game. I am so sick of variations of Jumpmasters and Palpaces facing each other like in a sort of eternal Ragnarok.

If FFG releases a competitive campaign, I foresee two different scenarios:

- The campaign comes with stuff usable and good for standard format, like ships or cards. Then the forums will boil with complains about having to buy something they don't want to stay competitive in the meta. Soon after, the campaign books will go and give company to the Imperial Raider, while they gather dust.

- The campaign doesn't come with anything usable in standard format. In that case, only those totally bored with the tournament format, or those that just buy one of everything, will be the ones purchasing that campaign. The rest of the stock will stay on the shelves or be in clearance soon after.

I agree with heychadwick on his retort and understanding of this. Yes, some people are all about the standard format in prep for tournaments. That's just how many people in the X-Wing playing society are wired, and X-Wing caters very well to it.

But, there are a lot of people - yourself, myself, and others in this thread - who long for something more. The disconnect happens when people don't take the initiative and effort to really bring their community around to try something off the beaten path. I'm not saying that it's easy; I tried it when I had just started playing the game, but the problem was that I had just started playing the game. I didn't have street cred in my community yet. It takes a while for people to get to know you, and for them to come into a pattern of being a regular part of a playing group that you can count on.

We've been doing HotAC, and it's been great. I'd like to do something more campaign-wise after we conclude with it, though I'm still plugging away at the precise format. A published campaign system would help with that tremendously, because it would give my community of players confidence that the campaign would be well designed. Something that I homebrew will probably not be as balanced as professional game designers can do, even if (IMO) I might be able to do some more interesting and sophisticated things with online modeling.

I think it's pretty silly to assume that a product won't succeed based on anecdotal evidence when this thread and many other threads plus the success of HotAC pretty much stand as proof that the product would be successful. Would it be as successful as a pack of new ships? Maybe not. But isn't X-wing the top selling miniatures game at the moment? I'm pretty sure they would not lose money in releasing a campaign box and would actually grab a few people who have grown tired of the death match.

Also, this forum is largely made up of hard core tournament gamers. However, FFG has said before that actually the casual gamer is a large part of their X-wing sales. So, this kind of product targets those people who don't go out to tournaments but would enjoy some more meaningful games with their siblings, friends, etc

Maybe the box set includes, say, a Pelta-class frigate (Rebel Campaign!) a Arquitens-class Imperial light cruiser (Imperial Campaign) or a Mandalorian corvette? (Scum campaign!)

I'm juuuuuuuuuuuuuuat sayin'.

3 box sets one for each faction would be fun. Also it could come with books for each faction inside the box set. Then in the future they can release another campaign module and encompass all 3 factions.

I would like to see a head to head scenario starting with small engagements and working up to larger potentially epic ones (300 point games). A great immersive story line with each campaign. Conditions for winning would often not be simply total kills but missions and so the FULL spectrum of x wing ships can see play.

FFG...

Just give the HotAC guys a job. Thank you.

PS: And I don't mean in the mailroom! Just give those guys a license to print money for you and everyone will stop trying to blow up asteroids.

FFG...

Just give the HotAC guys a job. Thank you.

PS: And I don't mean in the mailroom! Just give those guys a license to print money for you and everyone will stop trying to blow up asteroids.

It was one guy and if I'm not mistaken, he recently started working for a small board game company.

I don't think there is any demand for a PvP campaign.

That is what the GR-75, CR-90, Raider, and Gozanti already bring to the table, and even when now and then you hear praises for them, most of the competitive scene in X-Wing basically ignore all kind of premade missions and focus 99% on the tournament format, that is competitiveness at its purest form.

This.

Sorry. You say that you think cooperative is lame. But you don't explain why cooperative is necessarily lame.

No, I exactly said why particular game, X-WIng, is lame as a cooperative activity. Here I quote it for you:

Instead of reading your oponent, trying to figure out where he moves and outsmart him, it pushes some boring cooperative play without greatest X-Wing asset - hidden movement mechanic.

You call "hidden movement" the greatest X-Wing asset. However, a great part of the competitive meta focuses on squads where hidden movement is irrelevant : high PS ships with repositioning don't care what you select in your dials. They will dial a safe standard move, then reposition as needed.

It is completely false. Of course squads with higher PS got a lot more room for error but I have yet to see or participate in game where guessing moves of my oponent was irrelevant.

In any case, my opinion is that competitive players already have plenty with the current X-Wing, both in the standard torunament format, and in the missions included with every core set and bigger expansion pack.

It is the group of cooperative players that is lacking any official content, and what HotAC has proved is that cooperative play can be and actually is awesome in X-Wing. It's a different game format using the same game components.

X-Wing never was and is not a game designed with cooperative play in mind. In my opinion possible campaign should be designed as two player direct confrontation conflict. Only this way you can make use of the greatest strenght of this game - hidden movement mechanics.

It is matter of opinion and in my opinion cooperative play is not awesome in X-Wing, nor it will ever be.

Well, You're right that this is *your* opinion about co-op in general and HotAC in specific. It is undeniable that HotAC has a strong following here, and one that ranges from the most casual type of player to the most competitive (Mynock squadron, for example). It's not your cup of tea, fine.

That said, I have to say that the AI mechanics in HotAC are really quite well-made, and are only moderately predictable, while their baked-in action economy advantages make them a credible threat that is fun for me and many others to play against. And while it is not true that maneuver selection is irrelevant in the current metagame, it is less relevant, or perhaps more forgiving, than it used to be, owing to proliferation of repositioning abilities and turreted ships.

After all that, though, I do absolutely agree that there is an unmet demand for a PvP campaign, and that a well made PvP campaign would have the capacity to foster intensely competitive, dynamic, fresh, and dramatic games of X-wing.

Agreed.

I play (and love) HoTAC but I would like to see a boxed campaign(s) that 1 person controlled the bad guys, just like Descent. In fact, I would really love if the official campaign took as many elements from the Descent's mechanics as possible.

I don't think there is any demand for a PvP campaign.

That is what the GR-75, CR-90, Raider, and Gozanti already bring to the table, and even when now and then you hear praises for them, most of the competitive scene in X-Wing basically ignore all kind of premade missions and focus 99% on the tournament format, that is competitiveness at its purest form.

This.

The campaign box set has NOTHING to do with competitive X wing. I would guess that 90% of x wing players are in fact casual players who seldom go to store championships. This board represents the most active and competitive players but does not really represent the overall player base.

Take the Armada campaign as an example. Even though armada is competitive and has tournaments there is a place for campaign mode in Armada. The same goes for x wing. Fantasy Flight is leaving money on the table if they do not make a campaign box set series for x wing.

Maybe the box set includes, say, a Pelta-class frigate (Rebel Campaign!) a Arquitens-class Imperial light cruiser (Imperial Campaign) or a Mandalorian corvette? (Scum campaign!)

I'm juuuuuuuuuuuuuuat sayin'.

3 box sets one for each faction would be fun. Also it could come with books for each faction inside the box set. Then in the future they can release another campaign module and encompass all 3 factions.

I would like to see a head to head scenario starting with small engagements and working up to larger potentially epic ones (300 point games). A great immersive story line with each campaign. Conditions for winning would often not be simply total kills but missions and so the FULL spectrum of x wing ships can see play.

Considering the defector Imperial "warlords" (see TIE Fighter PC Game), FFG could do a single campaign for all 3 factions against a rogue Imperial Admiral. Choose your faction and follow the history for that faction (there would be a different small text for each faction for debriefing).

FFG...

Just give the HotAC guys a job. Thank you.

PS: And I don't mean in the mailroom! Just give those guys a license to print money for you and everyone will stop trying to blow up asteroids.

But my seismic torpedoes..

I suspect, that if FFG did an x-wing campaign it would be adversarial, which is a shame, because a heroes of the Aturi Cluster that could be done for each faction, as a mini expansion with a couple of ships - a box set, as you were.

Though, Instead of the campaign, I suspect a ground based combat game that is either a stand alone game that is compatible, or a full up expansion.