Hi all!
We're starting a HotAC campaign soon at the FLGS and I was wondering if any of you fine internet strangers had used the FAQ suggestions for including the E-Wing, K-Wing or T-70 at all and how you found these to play? Personally; I like the idea of more choice but it seems some of these power creep the older ships a little, on paper at least. Not sure whether to offer these options to the pilots or not so any feedback would be appreciated. Thanks!
According to the gentleman that has run our previous campaigns and works closely with the creators, he's found the E-Wing is broken strong in HotAC. K-Wing from the last time I've checked hasn't been tested enough. We've run our campaign with T-70s and they have seemed pretty balanced. We have always allowed the Pilot Abilities from all of the ships varying certain combinations that end up being broken (Miranda Doni + Red Ace).
the T70 is definately power creep, and the Ewing/Kwing is even more so, with being able to stack mods, EPTs and Pilot abilities on top of their many native slots.
Working on an imperial campaign, I'm trying to avoid another "Awing/Ewing" situation, making sure the various imperial ships are in forms that are all similarly viable. The "Biophysical Defender" (no titles) is overcosted for normal games, but it offers a "raw stats" upgrade option that is differently powerful than an arcdodging Intercepter or Inquisitor Fighter, or a supporting Bomber or Shuttle.
I have also heard that the E-wing and T-70 is too much for the campaign. I don't know about the K-wing, but it might be. I'm going to bet that the ARC-170 will fit in fine, though.
the T70 is definately power creep, and the Ewing/Kwing is even more so, with being able to stack mods, EPTs and Pilot abilities on top of their many native slots.
Working on an imperial campaign, I'm trying to avoid another "Awing/Ewing" situation, making sure the various imperial ships are in forms that are all similarly viable. The "Biophysical Defender" (no titles) is overcosted for normal games, but it offers a "raw stats" upgrade option that is differently powerful than an arcdodging Intercepter or Inquisitor Fighter, or a supporting Bomber or Shuttle.
I could see a TIE advanced or TAP and a TIE bomber being the first Imperial choices for...VOTAC...?
For our most recent game, my group has started a new variant for starting ships. You get 30 points to buy a lowest pilot skill version of any non Imperial ship the game has. You use whatever is left to buy whatever upgrades you want, only EPTs use any alternate cost from the HOTAC rule book. At PS 4 you can change ships 5 points for a small, 10 for a large (which count as 2 players for determining mission difficulty). And finally, once the Tie Defender MIssion arc is completed, you can upgrade to it, same for the Tie Phantom.
We just cleared the Defender arc and hot **** that Tie/D.
I guess the main reason I wanted to include these ships is due to the 3 ships you can unlock not having any use for the Astomech slot, making it kind of redundant unless you stick with a T-65 or y-wing. I can, however, see how these could be a little silly with all the unlocked upgrade slots.
True, but you get so many other options to pick. Just....don't buy a very expensive astromech!
True, but you get so many other options to pick. Just....don't buy a very expensive astromech!
R2A looks a worthy spend of 1 point as a filler until you unlock the other ships for either starting ship.
I think I'm going to run with whats in the core rules and not bother with e,k,t-70 and try to encourage people to get those t-65's popping
The reason there's trepidation about the E-Wing and T-70 is that the game's difficulty level was based on the Wave 1-3 Rebel ships which are all fairly equivalent in their distribution of modifications, maneuver dial, and raw stats.
The E-Wing is hard to balance because it's just objectively better than every other Rebel ship in the game. The reason few people use the E-Wing in tournament play is that aside from Corran it's too expensive. In HotAC, point cost isn't an issue, and the E-Wing just ends up as a shop-wrecker because it has a really good dial, a potent primary weapon attack, and a good assortment of upgrade options. From just a purely statistical standpoint, there's almost no reason to play an X, B or A Wing in HotAC if you have E-Wing as an option.
That's not to say you can't use the E-Wing, or even that you shouldn't. Just understand that it creates a significant advantage for the player using it, and it might be worth scaling up the difficulty if you do that. Increasing average group Pilot Skill by 2 (since only even levels count) and/or playing at +1 player total when determining what and how many ships show up in a wave. If you don't you're going to be dramatically lowering the game's difficulty level.
I think the T-70 isn't quite as big of an issue, but there's been a lot of discussion about how to balance it as well, because it is also just objectively better than everything else. Having it lose 2 modification slots (base, and PS4 or 6) seems to be the best way to do it, because then it is "paying" for the Shield Upgrade and Engine Upgrade stats it has over a base T-65. At that point, then it's just a T-65 with a slightly better dial and the tech slot, which is probably worth the 5 points without being game-breaking. gain though, like the E-Wing, the T-70 represents a clear upgrade, instead of a more lateral move like with the A-Wing and B-Wing.
the T70 is definately power creep, and the Ewing/Kwing is even more so, with being able to stack mods, EPTs and Pilot abilities on top of their many native slots.
Working on an imperial campaign, I'm trying to avoid another "Awing/Ewing" situation, making sure the various imperial ships are in forms that are all similarly viable. The "Biophysical Defender" (no titles) is overcosted for normal games, but it offers a "raw stats" upgrade option that is differently powerful than an arcdodging Intercepter or Inquisitor Fighter, or a supporting Bomber or Shuttle.
I could see a TIE advanced or TAP and a TIE bomber being the first Imperial choices for...VOTAC...?
I went for the hyperdriveless Tie Intercepters over the TAP- only experieced pilots get the slower, lighter gunned but with a (pair of) missile, hyperdrive and PTL-lite title Inquisitor.
I am worried about it being an Awing situation, though- all the other 2 attack ships have ways of ignoring it. Bomber has up to 8 ordinance shots, Advance has ATC, Tie Shuttle title can get potentially 3 assist XP a turn from fleet and system officers, and Tie Fighters manipulate enemy spawn to bring them down to their level.
The Inquisitor only has the TL+Evade title and up to 2 of a missile.
I think the issues with the T-70, E-Wing, and K-Wing are that they are superior ships to the base X-Wing & Y-Wing with little to no drawbacks.
B-Wing vs. X-Wing : B-Wing gains Barrel Roll, 3 Shields, a Cannon Slot, a Systems Slot, and a (sorta) Crew slot, but it loses 1 Agility and get a dial that (other than the K-Turn) is worse than the Y-Wing.
T-70 X-Wing vs. X-Wing : The T-70 gains Boost, 1 Shield, and a limited, reusable Lightning Reflexes (i.e. T-Roll) with no drawbacks.
E-Wing vs. X-Wing : E-Wing gets +1 AGI, exchanges 1 Hull for 1 Shield, gains a Systems Slot, and has a better dial... all with no drawbacks.
K-Wing vs. Y-Wing : The K-Wing has 3 extra Ordnance slots, a Crew Slot, +1 Shield, a Primary Weapon Turret, and a SLAM. All it gives up are the Red maneuvers on the Y-Wing dial and its Astromech slot.
The HotAC FAQ * suggests that you could take these ships at a higher PS level for 10 XP.
I also wish that there were more options for ships with an Astromech slot. I also agree that the ARC-170 w/Title would be a good PS 4 upgrade ship.
I am tempted to make a Title card for the Z-95 so it could be used as a starting ship. I was thinking of something like the Z-95 Heavy that gives +1 Attack, +1 Hull, and an Astromech slot. Although it just becomes an X-Wing with a slightly different dial and Missiles instead of Torpedoes, I'm okay with that. One more ship for the game. Yay!
*The HotAC FAQ is the new dance craze in the Middle Rim.
I am also tempted to include "Mercenaries of the Aturi Cluster" for starting pilots. These would be Scum pilots that follow the same pilot rules for HotAC with the following exceptions:
I don't see any glaring balance issues. If it works, this gives a lot of additional options for players.
True, but you get so many other options to pick. Just....don't buy a very expensive astromech!
The humble R2 astromech is good enough that I don't ever want to leave my T-65 (well, for a T-70 or E-Wing, sure). Because Engine Upgrade + R2 + PTL + Blue Ace's pilot ability is so much fun . 180 degree maneuvering, every turn.
We don't allow anything beyond Wave 7, with the exception of Integrated Astromech (with the caveat that if you eject your mech, you have to re-purchase it). The campaign was clearly playtested extensively, and is very finely balanced. The power-creep noticeably ramps up beyond Wave 7, so we draw the line there.
The campaign was simply not designed with E-wings and K-wings in mind, and will never scale acceptably for it to remain balanced on all missions. Adding 2 to the average pilot skill level is nice, but an E-wing upgrade makes short work of imperial aces. I will never use it in the current campaign, but might end up creating an alternate one somewhere down the line with a much harder difficulty level and scaling according to what ships the players are running.
For the Z-95, I suggest a doubled up pilot card. You get 2 rather limited pilot sheets, each with their own pilot skill for you to level up (at the usual cost for each one), and perhaps 2 modifications, 3 EPTs and a missile slot each. That gives you 2 quite fragile ships with lower attack power, but super high durability and interesting maneuver options. As en entry level craft, I would give them 2 points to upgrade with. The drawback is that its a lot harder to level up your pilot skill.
For the Z-95, I suggest a doubled up pilot card. You get 2 rather limited pilot sheets, each with their own pilot skill for you to level up (at the usual cost for each one), and perhaps 2 modifications, 3 EPTs and a missile slot each. That gives you 2 quite fragile ships with lower attack power, but super high durability and interesting maneuver options. As en entry level craft, I would give them 2 points to upgrade with. The drawback is that its a lot harder to level up your pilot skill.
Actually, I was going to suggest something similar which they are doing for the Imperial VotAC. The idea is that you get 2 Z-95's that are basically twins. They are treated like one pilot and all upgrades are done together. If one dies, it's OK and you just replace them next mission. If both are shot down, it's like a pilot down. That's what they are doing for Tie Fighters. Not sure if Z's are more powerful to do that with. It might be worth testing.
I have a ps 6 Y-wing, title, bombs, extra muntion, TLT, boost, Predator and Marksmanship, r2 astromach (soon with shield upgrade). But the ship is still in balance with the horrors and wave upon wave of Ties that come at us
I have been thinking here and think there is a way to make all ships playable and balanced.
You would need to go to the games point system for the cost of a basic ship and include a point value for pilot skill. You then add the teams points to create an overall value. This value can then determine the difficulty of each mission rather than the number of players, I would imagine that there would be 10-12 difficulty levels rather than the current 6. As for elite AI there are a couple ways they could work but I think a threshold with points based on ship value only to determine how many you get and the current avg pilot skill to determine what level each of them are.
The downside to this is that all the existing missions would need a rework, but it might be a simpler way to balance all new ships.
Has anyone considered the idea of paying for advanced/overpowered ships with EPT and/or Modification slots in addition to point cost? I would think that E-wings, for instance, would be fine if you gave up one EPT in addition to the point cost; perhaps even the YT freighters could be balanced if they cost 2 EPTs and a Mod slot or two.
Edited by NyarrThe other issue with E-Wings, K-Wings, and T-70s (and a big part of the reason why the creator didn't include them) is that they are anachronistic. HotAC is set during the height of the Galactic Civil War (or in other words, during the original trilogy), and those three ships all came sometime afterwards, so it's not very thematic to include them. It would be like adding TIE/fo's and TIE/sf's to the imperials. Some people don't care about that but some do.
Now, you could argue that the ARC-170 should be included once it comes out, since it WAS around during that time frame...
I agree with that. I also think that the ARC-170 will probably fit in well enough. Not positive, but I am guessing it will be fine. It's not so crazy with the variety of upgrades.
What about the Attack Shuttle? I never hear anyone wanting to put that ship in HotAC. It might be a really good ship to try. It's got a decent dial, but not crazy. It has Crew and Turret, but not much else. It's only 2 hull and 2 shield, but you can improve it. Lots of chances to be a decent support ship and also do some damage. The 3 main guns are pretty nice. I think this might be a decent ship you could migrate to at PS 4. Thoughts? Has anyone else brought this up before? It is even relevant time wise.
That kind of makes me think about something. What about a campaign based on the Star Wars Rebels tv show? You could make a mini campaign that fits into that storyline. Maybe use the Ghost in some missions as a "keep it alive" kind of thing. Have The Inquisitor or even Darth Vader show up at times? That might be pretty neat. You can use all the same AI and such, but just change missions out.
Ah yes I forgot about the attack shuttle. IIRC it has been discussed, and even tried before, though I couldn't point you to the right thread. You'd have to go digging.
I don't think the attack shuttle would be unbalanced- it's basically a slightly more fragile and more attack-oriented (funny enough) version of the HWK.
Yeah the Attack Shuttle should be fine. Same with the Arc-170, which I can not wait to try out in the campaign!!!
I like the idea of a hero version of Z-95s that players are in. In fact, I really want the campaign to start everyone in a Z-95 or ARC-170, because I'm thematic that way.
The Bandit Squadron pilot is the most points efficient ship in the game, narrowly edging out the Academy Pilot. HotAC doesn't actually model what the Bandit Squadron pilot brings (extra PS), so it would have to make up for it somehow.
I think a Z-95 only title that let you flip one blank to an eyeball for each friendly ship in range 1 would do the trick. It would make the ship a bit more sturdy, or punch a bit harder. It would also make folks a bit more eager to upgrade to X-Wings, which I like.
As far as squad dynamics, is there a way for players to hand equipment to one another between missions? If someoneis going from- say- an X-Wing to a B-Wing, and someone else is trading their Z-95 for a, it seems like a waste for one person to lose the mech and someone else to have to rebuy it.