Ok, I was just playing around with the starship combat rules and differing tech and stuff and I have a scenario I want to run past everyone.

I'm aware that I probably don't know the starship rules as completely as I should, so please correct me where appropriate.

This is JUST ABOUT THE MECHANICS. Please skip this if you're just going to tell me the scenario is impossible or that I should never allow specific mods on a starship of that size or whatever, that's not what I'm looking for.

Ok, heres the scenario:

I have a Battlecruiser (We'll shorten this to BC for now) with the mod Nightshadow Coating which reduces the range other ships can detect it.

Battleship: Sil 8, Armor 6, Spd 1, Sensor Range: Long

Primary Weapons: A few Heavy Turbolasers, Range: Long, Damage Base 11

-- These are the only pertinent stats for this experiment.

Now, the BC wants to attack a Victory Class Star Destroyer (SD)

Star Destroyer: Sil 8, Armor 9, Sensor Range: Long

Primary Weapons: A lot of Medium Turbolasers, Range: Long, Damage Base 10

Now, the BC pulls into Long Range of the SD. Because of the Nightshadow Coating, The SD doesn't even know it's there unless it moves into Medium Range.

The BC opens up on the SD. Average Damage of about 10 per hit.

The SD knows it's been hit, probably has a good idea where the fire is coming from, and starts moving in that direction with 2 move maneuvers.

The BC sees the SD moving, and starts moving as well to maintain range. Using 2 move maneuvers (and suffering 2 strain for the extra maneuver), the BC moves away from the SD, maintaining distance, but keeps firing.

This continues until the SD is destroyed by a ship it can't see.

Question #1

Now, assuming the SD doesn't jump to hyperspace to get away, is this plausible? I was thinking the SD could make blind attacks suffering several Setback dice (3 I think, perhaps adding in +1per range band or something) to try to hit the BC, but is this (basically) a sound idea?

Question #2

If the BC pulls an extra maneuver per round, does the ship itself take the Strain for the extra maneuver, or would it be whoever's piloting? It makes more sense to me that the ship takes the strain in this instance.

Question #3

Is there any way to extend Sensor range in the rules beyond the one mod that does it?

Question #4

This is a more general question, but can weapons of any sort fire past their listed range limit without special talents or mods?

Questions #5

Am I making any sense at all? Or do I have the whole idea skewed?

I actually ran this experiment and managed to get a crit on the SD on the first strike that took out it's engines. It took several rounds for the SD to get into firing position. I didn't move the BC away in the test run ( i guess I was overconfident in the damage I was inflicting ) and the damage to the BC skyrocketed as the SD closed in. The BC pulled a narrow win, but it was very close as the BC I used in the test didn't have nearly as many weapons as the SD.

Just to clarify, for the attack rolls, the BC had a base attack of 4 green. This was upgraded eight times to represent the eight heavy turbo lasers.

The Victory SD has two banks of ten medium turbo lasers. I guesstimated (didn't bother to look it up) a base attack of 2 green upgraded ten times with one attack roll per bank. As the ship closed in it's other weapons also came to bear.

On page 245 of Age of Rebellion CRB (The one closes to me at the moment), it says that ships of silhouette 5 or higher can only benefit from one Pilot Only maneuver in a round. The Fly/Drive maneuver - which allows a vehicle to to move closer or further way from something at its current speed - is a pilot only maneuver.

#1

I'm not sure how plausible it is off the top of my head. Alot of it depends on the current speeds of the ships. I'm not sure if there is a RAW answer for the difficulty. but 3 setback sounds like a good start.

#2

A vehicle suffers system strain when taking a second pilot only maneuver. However, a silhouette 5+ cannot perform a second pilot-only maneuver. But in a light freighter or a star-fighter, the vehicle would take strain. The pilot would also suffer strain if it did not sacrifice its action to perform the second maneuver.

#3

You can focus your sensor in a specific direction. If I recall correctly, this will increase its range by 1 band.

#4

Not without talents or mods. Or special circumstances not currently listed in RAW.

#5

Sounds like you have a good basic grasp on vehicular combat. Keep asking questions.

It's a neat idea, but there's some problems that make it rather impractical.

The BC sees the SD moving, and starts moving as well to maintain range. Using 2 move maneuvers (and suffering 2 strain for the extra maneuver), the BC moves away from the SD, maintaining distance, but keeps firing.

Cap ships can only take 1 pilot only maneuver per turn. Doesn't change a whole lot, but since you're learning, there's a point to remember.

Is there any way to extend Sensor range in the rules beyond the one mod that does it?

The sensor range listed is the 360 scan range. If you actively scan it changes to a single 90 degree arc and extends 1 range farther.

Now, assuming the SD doesn't jump to hyperspace to get away, is this plausible? I was thinking the SD could make blind attacks suffering several Setback dice (3 I think, perhaps adding in +1per range band or something) to try to hit the BC, but is this (basically) a sound idea?

Cloaked ships Required a daunting Vigilance check, which once passed, allow the cloaked ship to be fired on as if it were Sil 0.

In this case you could do something similar, requiring a Vigilance check before you can engage. Since Nightshadow coating is just really radar absorbing plating, and the ship in question is a big one, the check probably would be Average or maybe Hard. Once spotted, no Sil adjustment as at that point the ship is being visually targeted (Star Wars ships have systems for that, see ANH and the reference for visual scanning, for fighters that probably means "look around" bigger craft undoubtedly have cameras and telescopes, so back tracking long range laser fire is probably pretty easy) a setback or two might work though. I mean, you could take the Sil adjusting mod, but when talking Battle Cruiser sized craft I don't think it's worth it.

This is a more general question, but can weapons of any sort fire past their listed range limit without special talents or mods?

no

Am I making any sense at all? Or do I have the whole idea skewed?

It's an idea, but it's utility is kinda limited, and yeah, you've forgot some key points that do skew it in your favor.

For starters it's the kinda trick that only works a few times before someone catches on and it also makes some dangerous assumptions about enemy ship tactics and deployment. Against lone targets it's a method to get that initial alpha strike, and as your test showed an alpha strike can be good (Though did you remember the Massive rule?). But, it also makes certain assumptions, like that the target will be totally and completely alone, which is possible, but unlikely, especially after pulling this stunt.

Even a "lone" star destroyer isn't technically alone, as it carries an entire TIE fighter wing of 72 craft, plus gunboats, recons ships, utility tugs, assault transports and so on. Watching the films it appears to be Imperial Navy doctrine to deploy a fair number of TIEs (probably a Squadron [12]) on roving patrol whenever they're in an area for any length of time. So it'd be likely that as soon as the turbolasers impacted with the SD, even if the sensors didn't extend, they'd have a TIE flight group shoot over there to investigate, and then the jig would be up and you'd have incoming TIE bombers to worry about.

Also since most Cap Ships have a sensor range of long, it really wouldn't work that well, and once the Empire figures it out, they'll just have their battlegroups run in flotillas and keep an active scan going. 4 Ships with a Long range (so like anything Sil 5 really) can cover all four arcs out to extreme.

Stealth coatings really aren't that great a mod if you're looking at a combat ship. It just doesn't provide enough bang for your buck. It's usually better for craft that are intentionally trying to avoid combat, like recon or smuggling ships.

Even then, once the other guy knows you're in the neighborhood there's ways to defeat you. Full Stop for example could really bork you up if you're stalking another ship and you don't also have Full Stop.... Crazy Ivan and all that..

Ok, thanks for the responses guys. That helps. I re-read some of the sections from the book. But I have a few more questions:

I was confused about those capital ship maneuvers because on page 244 it says that capital ships can make one maneuver and one attack per round just like smaller ships. I missed on the next page where it says they can only do one Pilot maneuver per round. Thanks for that.

I totally understand what you mean about the SD's traveling in packs and such. I'm not looking to create a SD hunter/killer, I'm just curious as to how it would play out if a stealth BC encountered a SD it wanted to attack. Like, say if both ships are in-system and the SD tractor's the Tantive IV and the BC tries to free it by taking out the SD. lol Just an example off the top of my head.

Questions #1

So after the first strike, the SD focuses it's sensors in the direction of the attack, this pushes the SD's sensors to extreme in that one arc, and with the Whisperthrust coating pushing a -1 to sensor range the SD can now see the BC at long range. I imagine that this would require a sensor check on the part of the SD to get a fix with active sensors. I know the default check is easy (1 Purple), but If the check is failed, that would mean the SD still can't see the BC right?

P.S. I was looking at the stats for Pseudo Cloaking Device and Whisperthrust Engine mods that would add +4 upgrades to a sensor check at low spd. That 1 Purple would become 1 Purple and 2 Red on the sensor check. Could be fun.

Question #2

If the SD knows it's being attacked, but can't see it due to a failed sensor check (I'm assuming that at long range - Several thousand Kilometers according the the ACRB pg 253 - Visual scanning would be out without a lot of luck and a REALLY powerful telescope) I would assume the SD can fire blind. The best idea for blind-firing mechanics for a cap ship I can find would be something like the Overwhelming Barrage Maneuver. You know, fill that arc with fire and hope to get a couple hits. That maneuver specifically is meant for attacking multiple ships though. How would you guys handle this?

Question #3

I was considering allowing the SD to route sensors through it's tie fighters, but if their engaged with fighters or otherwise occupied this won't work very well as a tie only has a range of Close. Could a tie even pick the BC up on scanners at all without focusing them? Even with focusing the sensors, the tie would have to be in Close range - practically on top of the BC - before getting a sensor hit.

which leads to:

Question #4

If you threw the Nightshadow Coating on a fighter, like an X-Wing, no fighters would be able to see it all all without making visual identification or focusing sensors, right?

Question #5

The A-Wing comes with a built in sensor jammer that blocks all sensors in range. Would an A-Wing have anything to fear from a SD if they maintained a moderate distance to prevent visual identification? Tie fighters can track and attack visually, but I think a SD would be hard pressed to do this.

Personally, aside from all that above, I don't think it's really plausible to be able to visually track something in space beyond close or short range. The distances are just too much to see anything. What do you guys think?

Thanks for the help guys.

I would rule that the stealth coating only works for the first attack. I don't care how fancy your ship is, or how crummy the local sensors are, those turbolasers put out a lot of juice, and I would rule that there's basically no way you can hide the point from which they originate.

I would rule that the stealth coating only works for the first attack. I don't care how fancy your ship is, or how crummy the local sensors are, those turbolasers put out a lot of juice, and I would rule that there's basically no way you can hide the point from which they originate.

You raise a valid point. The only issue I would have is that the SD would be firing on a spot in space (where they guesstimate the fire is coming from), not the actual BC. That should require some increased difficulty at minimum I would think.

The Blanket Barrage Action on page 246 of the AoR CRB could be used. It upgrades enemy combat checks(BC) against you (SD) but on a double Threat, the BC suffers an automatic hit at half the base damage, rounded up. On a Despair that damage goes to the full value. It's meant for use against smaller ships (Sil 4 and smaller) but I don't why you couldn't use it for blind firing when you've failed to locate a stealthy target (at an increased difficulty of course, the base is Average).

OK, I think we need to quit beating around the bush and cut to the chase.

WHY?

Is this some plan you've concocted for your character and party and are prepping to take it to the GM?

Is this some campaign concept you're prepping for your players?

Knowing why you're going bonkers on stealth gear and it's relation to what you're trying to do will allow us to better advise you.

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Questions #1
So after the first strike, the SD focuses it's sensors in the direction of the attack, this pushes the SD's sensors to extreme in that one arc, and with the Whisperthrust coating pushing a -1 to sensor range the SD can now see the BC at long range. I imagine that this would require a sensor check on the part of the SD to get a fix with active sensors. I know the default check is easy (1 Purple), but If the check is failed, that would mean the SD still can't see the BC right?

Possibly, it depends on the situation, and roll results. A Triumph on a fail might allow something else to happen you hadn't planned on.

Question #2
If the SD knows it's being attacked, but can't see it due to a failed sensor check (I'm assuming that at long range - Several thousand Kilometers according the the ACRB pg 253 - Visual scanning would be out without a lot of luck and a REALLY powerful telescope) I would assume the SD can fire blind. The best idea for blind-firing mechanics for a cap ship I can find would be something like the Overwhelming Barrage Maneuver. You know, fill that arc with fire and hope to get a couple hits. That maneuver specifically is meant for attacking multiple ships though. How would you guys handle this?

You assume too much.

One of my places of employment is a deep space telescope facility that tracks space debris for NASA and Air Force space mission planning. They can track a wrench in orbit by visual only, and that's 300 km through an atmo. A battleship at 1000 km through open vacuum would be a walk in the park. A Star Destoryer could mount dozens of such telescopes and you wouldn't even notice, it would just be little bumps and that's assuming Star Wars hasn't figured out a way to make them smaller (which they probably have).

That said, if you want to do this, I'd say just reduce the target's Sil like with an actual cloaking device. Something like a Star Destroyer trying to hit a Sil 5 target isn't going to have a ton of luck.

Question #3

I was considering allowing the SD to route sensors through it's tie fighters, but if their engaged with fighters or otherwise occupied this won't work very well as a tie only has a range of Close. Could a tie even pick the BC up on scanners at all without focusing them? Even with focusing the sensors, the tie would have to be in Close range - practically on top of the BC - before getting a sensor hit.

Yes, to reach out to Short Range the TIEs would have to focus. BUT the standard TIE flight group is 4, that's a fighter for every direction, so it's totally doable within the narrative.

Even not focusing on it, it's not a big deal, a Cruiser shooting at Sil 3 TIEs is gonna suck. So yeah, they'll have to fly to close, but it's not that hard, a cruiser going Speed 2 ain't gonna get away from a TIE going Speed 5, all they gotta do is follow the turbolaser fire to the source and, boom done. They report the position back to the cap ship and that's that.

Coordinating fire like this would actually be pretty common practice when you start talking war among the stars, you just get a position, speed, and vector (probably all done automatically by the TIE's fire control computer) and bounce it back to the capship. If you want to get fancy, deploy TIE/fcs and TIE/rcs and start allowing upgrades and reduced difficulty.

Question #4

If you threw the Nightshadow Coating on a fighter, like an X-Wing, no fighters would be able to see it all all without making visual identification or focusing sensors, right?

No. Nightshadow doesn't work at close range at all. Besides acquiring that much stealth coating is gonna be a nightmare. It's Rarity 8, even on a coreworld major trade planet that's not gonna be easy to find.

The A-Wing comes with a built in sensor jammer that blocks all sensors in range. Would an A-Wing have anything to fear from a SD if they maintained a moderate distance to prevent visual identification? Tie fighters can track and attack visually, but I think a SD would be hard pressed to do this.

The A-wing's jammer already says exactly what it does. When attacking it the A-wing counts as being one Sil smaller while announcing it's presence to the entire star system.

But it's really a moot point. Look at what it will take for a Sil 8 Star Destroyer to hit a Sil 3 (2 with jammer) A-wing. It's not happening.

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Really though all the mechanics are going to depend on the narrative, the encounter design, and the Adventure.As a GM, I'd let this sort of thing happen a few times within the sanity of a "stealth cruiser" adventure thread, but for the sake of sanity I couldn't let it carry on forever. The Campaign would have to go somewhere, and "invisible ship winning at everything all the time because it's invisible" isn't somewhere.

Sure, two or three times I'd let it work, because winning is fun and there's some neat stories to be told based on the concept. But by nature you gotta move on at some point, and that means sensor buoys, probe droids, convoy tactics, and sending some stealth ships of my own after you.

OK, I think we need to quit beating around the bush and cut to the chase.

WHY?

I thought I made this pretty clear.

Ok, I was just playing around with the starship combat rules and differing tech and stuff and I have a scenario I want to run past everyone.

I'm aware that I probably don't know the starship rules as completely as I should, so please correct me where appropriate.

This is JUST ABOUT THE MECHANICS . Please skip this if you're just going to tell me the scenario is impossible or that I should never allow specific mods on a starship of that size or whatever, that's not what I'm looking for.

I'm digging into the starship mechanics and mods and looking to understand how all of these things will work correctly. These examples and quick run combats seem to be the best way for me to understand them.

And yes, I'm also interested in creating some stealth starships in my game and I'd like to understand the limits of the tech in the system.

Question #2

If the SD knows it's being attacked, but can't see it due to a failed sensor check (I'm assuming that at long range - Several thousand Kilometers according the the ACRB pg 253 - Visual scanning would be out without a lot of luck and a REALLY powerful telescope) I would assume the SD can fire blind. The best idea for blind-firing mechanics for a cap ship I can find would be something like the Overwhelming Barrage Maneuver. You know, fill that arc with fire and hope to get a couple hits. That maneuver specifically is meant for attacking multiple ships though. How would you guys handle this?

You assume too much.

One of my places of employment is a deep space telescope facility that tracks space debris for NASA and Air Force space mission planning. They can track a wrench in orbit by visual only, and that's 300 km through an atmo. A battleship at 1000 km through open vacuum would be a walk in the park. A Star Destoryer could mount dozens of such telescopes and you wouldn't even notice, it would just be little bumps and that's assuming Star Wars hasn't figured out a way to make them smaller (which they probably have).

That said, if you want to do this, I'd say just reduce the target's Sil like with an actual cloaking device. Something like a Star Destroyer trying to hit a Sil 5 target isn't going to have a ton of luck.

You're telling me that they don't use ANY computer or sensor equipment to do this? Just a guy with a big, manual telescope? Because as an ex-computer programmer, I've seen some of the code they use in those tracking systems...

The Empire is so arrogant that they don't even equip their Tie fighters with shields, how reliable are their manually run telescope backups going to be? From everything I've seen about naval officers in Star Wars, they'd be insulted that anyone even thought manual telescopes would be a necessary backup. I'm not saying it isn't a viable backup system, I'm just saying it can't possibly be that reliable on a moving starship over thousands of kilometers in space. And remember, without a tracking system of some sort, this would be like trying to find a fly on a barn wall with a pair of binoculars at 20 ft.

Question #3

I was considering allowing the SD to route sensors through it's tie fighters, but if their engaged with fighters or otherwise occupied this won't work very well as a tie only has a range of Close. Could a tie even pick the BC up on scanners at all without focusing them? Even with focusing the sensors, the tie would have to be in Close range - practically on top of the BC - before getting a sensor hit.

Yes, to reach out to Short Range the TIEs would have to focus. BUT the standard TIE flight group is 4, that's a fighter for every direction, so it's totally doable within the narrative.

Even not focusing on it, it's not a big deal, a Cruiser shooting at Sil 3 TIEs is gonna suck. So yeah, they'll have to fly to close, but it's not that hard, a cruiser going Speed 2 ain't gonna get away from a TIE going Speed 5, all they gotta do is follow the turbolaser fire to the source and, boom done. They report the position back to the cap ship and that's that.

Coordinating fire like this would actually be pretty common practice when you start talking war among the stars, you just get a position, speed, and vector (probably all done automatically by the TIE's fire control computer) and bounce it back to the capship. If you want to get fancy, deploy TIE/fcs and TIE/rcs and start allowing upgrades and reduced difficulty.

You make some good points here. Military Artillery and Naval Ballistics use a form of mathematic vector tracking without computers. I don't know a lot about it, but I'm sure once the first Tie Fighter or two got a bearing, they could use that as a basis for their firing solutions. Should probably still add a couple of Setback die due to inaccuracies though. I think this is the most likely (and viable) backup to not being able to use scanners.

No. Nightshadow doesn't work at close range at all. Besides acquiring that much stealth coating is gonna be a nightmare. It's Rarity 8, even on a coreworld major trade planet that's not gonna be easy to find.

I'd really like a reference for this. Where does it say anywhere that Nightshadow Coating doesn't work at close range? If you're just talking about visual scanning making it a non-issue, I could easily see a scenario where a group of PC's are following another ship at close range by staying in their blind spot (i.e. behind them or something) and using the Nightshadow coating to stay off sensors. And as for the Rarity 8 thing, see above.

The A-wing's jammer already says exactly what it does. When attacking it the A-wing counts as being one Sil smaller while announcing it's presence to the entire star system.

lol, you're right, the A-Wing's jammer already says exactly what it does:

"Miradyne Ltd. 4X-Phantom Sensor Jammer. Blocks all sensors within range , counting its ship or vehicle's silhouette as one smaller when being fired at. Immediately notifies all ships in a star system, or within one hundred kilometers if planetoid, to the ship or vehicle's existence."

Now, Blocks all sensors in range seems pretty clear to me... The -1 to sil on attacks would be because of the inability or difficulty of using computer sensor based tracking systems.

.

Everything else you mentioned has already been addressed in above posts.

The Blanket Barrage Action on page 246 of the AoR CRB could be used. It upgrades enemy combat checks(BC) against you (SD) but on a double Threat, the BC suffers an automatic hit at half the base damage, rounded up. On a Despair that damage goes to the full value. It's meant for use against smaller ships (Sil 4 and smaller) but I don't why you couldn't use it for blind firing when you've failed to locate a stealthy target (at an increased difficulty of course, the base is Average).

You make an interesting argument for this. I suppose you could use Blanket Barrage this way against big ships. The only issue I could see is people complaining that the BC's attack rolls are what determine if it (the BC) takes a hit. It's a little counterintuitive, but workable. Cool

OK, I think we need to quit beating around the bush and cut to the chase.

WHY?

I thought I made this pretty clear.

Ok, I was just playing around with the starship combat rules and differing tech and stuff and I have a scenario I want to run past everyone.

I'm aware that I probably don't know the starship rules as completely as I should, so please correct me where appropriate.

This is JUST ABOUT THE MECHANICS . Please skip this if you're just going to tell me the scenario is impossible or that I should never allow specific mods on a starship of that size or whatever, that's not what I'm looking for.

I'm digging into the starship mechanics and mods and looking to understand how all of these things will work correctly. These examples and quick run combats seem to be the best way for me to understand them.

And yes, I'm also interested in creating some stealth starships in my game and I'd like to understand the limits of the tech in the system.

Right, but to what end?

The reason I ask is because of all the mechanics of vehicles sensors is the weakest with the devs seeming to assume the GM will iron out the details with narrative, and handwave the little stuff. Like how per RAW if you require sensors to be used for all vehicle tracking you also can't run a chase scene with fighters because one side will outrun the sensors of the other super fast.

So if you have a narrative that requires a stealth ship, but it doesn't need to see much actual dice rolling, then going over stealth gear and sensors in detail can be skipped because it can just happen most of the time.

You're telling me that they don't use ANY computer or sensor equipment to do this? Just a guy with a big, manual telescope? Because as an ex-computer programmer, I've seen some of the code they use in those tracking systems

It's computer controlled, but not computer interpreted.

You punch in a part of the sky and the scope whips around and you look at the screen. If you have orbital data you can even track and stare at it to really see how it's tumbling, or not. Great for looking at space debris or making sure a satellite is doing what it's supposed to.

On a starship you'd have a similar situation. The ship would have a scope you dial in a direction or pull it from another sensor source, and look at the screen. Mechanically this is why sensors can use Computers (for running analytical algorithms) or Perception (for looking at the feeds directly). A star destroyer would have prolly a dozen or so big scopes, where a fighter might have one or two smaller ones like you'd see on a predator drone. Point is "visual scanning" can extend beyond those two little cameras in your noggin.

It's not really that amazing if you think about it, the Enterprise does this exact thing in nearly every episode, and the tech level of trek and star wars is comparable.

The Empire is so arrogant that they don't even equip their Tie fighters with shields, how reliable are their manually run telescope backups going to be?

This is kinda a separate discussion, but within the game mechanics, TIEs not having shields actually makes some sense. It's not arrogance, it's extreme evaluation of the rules. Without shields a TIE is a little vulnerable, but in the grand scheme of the action/maneuver economy, there's a sound argument for stripping off anything that could reduce the pilots action load.

Ghostofman, on 28 Jul 2016 - 4:32 PM, said:

No. Nightshadow doesn't work at close range at all. Besides acquiring that much stealth coating is gonna be a nightmare. It's Rarity 8, even on a coreworld major trade planet that's not gonna be easy to find.

I'd really like a reference for this. Where does it say anywhere that Nightshadow Coating doesn't work at close range? If you're just talking about visual scanning making it a non-issue, I could easily see a scenario where a group of PC's are following another ship at close range by staying in their blind spot (i.e. behind them or something) and using the Nightshadow coating to stay off sensors. And as for the Rarity 8 thing, see above.

The nightshadow description in FC says it's only good to close range. This is probably a simple balance issue, if it worked at close range you'd essentially have a super cloak, able to dogfight while invisible.

That said, if you wanted to do a blind spot narrative, while not in the books, the devs have said that GtA works both ways. So stealth up, make a GtA check, and narrative the rest.

Ok, now we're talking.

You make a lot of good points there Ghostofman.

I totally missed that part of the description in the Nightshadow coating. Makes a couple of my questions mute.

As for "to what end?" I'm not sure yet. I'm playing with the system a bit to see what I might want to do. If the stealth tech is viable or more trouble than it's worth. Probably will cost more than it's worth, in cash and rarity effects... but alas...

The part about the telescopes being computer controlled but not computer interpreted is an interesting distinction. I like the concept, but the big question is does the telescope simply show what it's seeing, or is there a computer interpreting the data and relaying it to a screen for the officers to look at. If it's the former, then Nightshadow coating would have no effect at all on it. If it's the latter, it's likely it would. On a Star Destroyer, I'd assume the latter since seems like it would be more technologically sound, but I can see how it may defeat the purpose of having it installed in the first place... I dunno... The incoming fire from a stealth vessel may make that question mute as well. I think I'd still add a couple setback dice to attacks made this way using former, but I agree that type of system is viable on a large ship like an SD.

But I still think the officers would be insulted by the antiquated tech in a telescope that isn't high-end computer controlled and interpreted.

As for your reference to Star Trek, I think I have to disagree. Well, it depends on what specifically your talking about. In the NextGen stuff, The computer takes sensor information and creates a visual interpretation of what it can read on the view screen. There's almost no actual optics (as we would think of them) involved. I know this because of the episode where they're doing a mock battle against a weaker FedShip and Warf, on the weaker ship, hacks into the Enterprise sensors and fools them into believing there's a Roman Warbird incoming. The Enterprises computer interprets the data and creates a Warbird on the view screen that isn't actually there. I'm not as familiar with what they do in TOS and Enterprise.

Boy, this became a very technical discussion about telescopes and optics for what I had originally intended, lol.

You make a good point about the tie fighters, but I'm on the fence with that. Stripping shields like that does make some sense, but their pilots are nowhere near talented enough to justify it generally. BUT, as you said, this is kind of another discussion entirely.

I totally am not getting you're last sentence. What's "Blind spot narrative" and "GtA?" I might just be dense at the moment, but... huh?

Great post.

You make a good point about the tie fighters, but I'm on the fence with that. Stripping shields like that does make some sense, but their pilots are nowhere near talented enough to justify it generally. BUT, as you said, this is kind of another discussion entirely.

I totally am not getting you're last sentence. What's "Blind spot narrative" and "GtA?" I might just be dense at the moment, but... huh?

OK, so these kinda go together.

GtA = Gain the Advantage.

When talking small craft (sil 4 and below) the game applies a little story about what's going on as a way to avoid a lot of the nitty gritty detailed rules for vehicles other systems have that tend to do more harm than good.

So this game assumes that simply by being in combat small craft are flying around making some effort to line up a shot and/or avoid getting hit, much in the same way personal combat assumes the characters aren't just standing around like statues. In that vain the default combat method has shots target the arc of the defenders choosing (so he can use the one with the best shielding to max the difficulty), and the actual arc one fighter is in compared to another isn't really tracked in a physical position sense like it would be with Sil 5 craft and larger.

So since same sil vehicle combat like with starfighters is a lot like a knife fight with poisoned daggers (one or two hits and it's over) they added in all these little actions and maneuvers you can take to adjust things. One being GtA which allows the attacker to pick the arc he's attacking, among other things. Now, the rulebook doesn't clarify beyond that, but when one of my players sent in a query, he got the dev response that GtA's arc selection feature works both directions; not only does the attacker chose the arc he's targeting, but that also becomes the arc the defender can return fire from.

So this generates a narrative that describes the action within the game world. "The TIE screams in and [Piloting check vs. speed+ modifiers for GtA] swings around taking up a position right in your 6 o'clock!"

The defender now has to do something about that, like move out of range, counter GtA, opposed Piloting check, whatever. But the thing is, except for things like multi crewed craft and talented pilots, it's a good bet that the defender is at the very least not shooting back next turn.

In reference to your question about flying in another crafts blind spot all Miami vice smuggler style, GtA is essentially the same maneuver, so that gives you a framework for that narrative element.

Now, looking at the TIE and the numbers you end up with a flimsy, but very efficient starfighter. It's hull and armor are weak, but if you consider that light and medium laser cannons are the average for fighters, and the damage is 5 and 6 respectively, when you look at the hull and armor of a TIE, an attacker will need to get 2-3 successes, or be able to activate linked to exceed the TIEs HT. Doable of course, but not with guaranteed consistency. So from a doctrine perspective the TIE isn't that poorly armored because against many opponents it will be able to survive one hit, which is true for a lot of fighters really, TIEs just shave it closer to the threshold.

Furthermore, and the real deal with TIEs, is that speed and handling score. Going Speed 5, and with handling 3, the TIE is going to be in a good spot when trying to GtA (and maintain) when going against other fighters that will tend to have lower handling and/or speed. So a TIE group can swoop in and focus on GtAing and taking evasive action until you botch the counter, at which point they open fire. Yeah a TIE has no shield, but thats not a huge disadvantage really and it means the pilot will never blow a maneuver or action managing them.

So TIEs are not the flimsy kooks the video games show, but more like Japanese Zeroes. Yeah when you land a solid hit the TIE is out of the game, but the TIE is going to do everything it can to keep you from even lining up a shot at all.

Ahh, I gotcha. Yea, it was just me being dense. For some reason I wasn't getting the intention of the sentence and without that reference couldn't place the terminology. I understand now.

I think that little run through also helped me understand the fighter combat a little better, so thanks!

So TIEs are not the flimsy kooks the video games show, but more like Japanese Zeroes.

I really like that comparison. Seems very on the mark.

I get your point about the Tie fighters. I'm not entirely sure I agree, but I understand where you're coming from.

The Blanket Barrage Action on page 246 of the AoR CRB could be used. It upgrades enemy combat checks(BC) against you (SD) but on a double Threat, the BC suffers an automatic hit at half the base damage, rounded up. On a Despair that damage goes to the full value. It's meant for use against smaller ships (Sil 4 and smaller) but I don't why you couldn't use it for blind firing when you've failed to locate a stealthy target (at an increased difficulty of course, the base is Average).

You make an interesting argument for this. I suppose you could use Blanket Barrage this way against big ships. The only issue I could see is people complaining that the BC's attack rolls are what determine if it (the BC) takes a hit. It's a little counterintuitive, but workable. Cool

I guess using Blanket Barrage would be more situational rather than the norm, especially if it makes narrative sense. And since we're applying Blanket Barrage to a larger target, you could use a Piloting Check to avoid the incoming fire rather than a Combat Check and use the same Threat and Despair interpretations.

Also, to be fair, the Empire's arrogance has nothing to do with the whether the TIEs have shields or not. They are designed to be an attrition unit. As such, they are designed to as cheap to produce as possible so they can be replaced quicker. Also, they are stripped of all non-essential equipment for the same reason and to make them faster and more maneuverable.

Even not focusing on it, it's not a big deal, a Cruiser shooting at Sil 3 TIEs is gonna suck. So yeah, they'll have to fly to close, but it's not that hard, a cruiser going Speed 2 ain't gonna get away from a TIE going Speed 5, all they gotta do is follow the turbolaser fire to the source and, boom done. They report the position back to the cap ship and that's that.

That was the first thing I thought of. If I were a Star Destroyer commander and we started getting nailed from an invisible ship, the first order would be to scramble all fighters. Get 72 more eyes in the air to find the source and the stealth ship is in a world of trouble.

So, how would I handle a ISD returning fire against an Invisible Ship? I'd go look up the penalties for fighting while blind - a blaster or melee - and go with those. I'm away from book, but that seems a reasonable solution to me, the same conditions just on a much larger scale.

Got per accident into the topic. As it it has been just a month since the last reply:

Why is this even a discussion when Night Shadow Cloaking only reducing the passive sensors by one range band? The second you attack anything the direction of the attack is obvious and active sensors are not suffering from the range band reduction. Instead the active sensors of an VSD offer extreme range.

Mostly it's just an extension of the "If I'm invisible, they can't attack me" claim.

Generally it's a load of hooey of course, but the OP wanted to look at hard RAW mechanics so....