An argument to have against increasing point costs is barrier of entry for competitive events. We already know what the prices are like at 400, now take it up a notch to 500..

I dunno about you, but I was under the impression that most people bought their own copy of the box set., then they buy ships from both factions to get access to upgrade cards.

I mean I bought a box, my friend bought a box, another friend bought a box, and another bought 2 boxes, so just box sets alone we have 5 between 4 of us, then we all bought at least one of every ship each, and several copies of the squadrons.

But that is 4 people, lets just say there is two of you playing, you should still have more than enough stuff to make a fleet with for a tournament.

You do not need to buy "more" just to get to 500pts.

One of each Imperial ship (inc wave 3/4) comes in at 396pts (taking one of each, and the cheapest version of each.) Rebels comes in at around 425pts, and that is no admiral, an no squadrons, and zero upgrade cards.

So no I am not seeing increasing the points to 450/500pts being a barrier for new entry players, this game is prohibitively expensive for building a tournament build, but if you have bought enough to be able to play competitively at 400pts, you can make 450/500pts at no extra cost.

Sure for casual games. HERO is talking competitively though.

You are telling people that they need 10 packs of Rogues and Villains or can play with 10 packs, they can play with 9x TRC90's which mind you is $50 per ship since you need the TRC's. My DtO increases dramatically in price. It is exponential.

If you want to play 500 point casual games, absolutely no is going to stop you. Tournaments are fine at 400

Yup. Probably why I said this:

An argument to have against increasing point costs is barrier of entry for competitive events. We already know what the prices are like at 400, now take it up a notch to 500..

An argument to have against increasing point costs is barrier of entry for competitive events. We already know what the prices are like at 400, now take it up a notch to 500..

I dunno about you, but I was under the impression that most people bought their own copy of the box set., then they buy ships from both factions to get access to upgrade cards.

I mean I bought a box, my friend bought a box, another friend bought a box, and another bought 2 boxes, so just box sets alone we have 5 between 4 of us, then we all bought at least one of every ship each, and several copies of the squadrons.

But that is 4 people, lets just say there is two of you playing, you should still have more than enough stuff to make a fleet with for a tournament.

You do not need to buy "more" just to get to 500pts.

One of each Imperial ship (inc wave 3/4) comes in at 396pts (taking one of each, and the cheapest version of each.) Rebels comes in at around 425pts, and that is no admiral, an no squadrons, and zero upgrade cards.

So no I am not seeing increasing the points to 450/500pts being a barrier for new entry players, this game is prohibitively expensive for building a tournament build, but if you have bought enough to be able to play competitively at 400pts, you can make 450/500pts at no extra cost.

Sure for casual games. HERO is talking competitively though.

You are telling people that they need 10 packs of Rogues and Villains or can play with 10 packs, they can play with 9x TRC90's which mind you is $50 per ship since you need the TRC's. My DtO increases dramatically in price. It is exponential.

If you want to play 500 point casual games, absolutely no is going to stop you. Tournaments are fine at 400

I'm not sure Lyr, I mean I stated : this game is prohibitively expensive for building a tournament build, but if you have bought enough to be able to play competitively at 400pts, you can make 450/500pts at no extra cost.

I and my friends play casually and we play competitively, the point being made was we have a glut of stuff from wanting to play in tournaments.

And wtf is your point about 10 packs of R&V's? if you already bought EIGHT of them, 2 more is hardly going to break the bank, and 9 TRCS, vrs how many at 400pts at 50$$ per ship?? again, thanks for proving my point.

Ah right so your MC30 build, couldn't use another MC30 in it? and not be as effective right?

Hilariously wrong? in the fact that if you have bought enough to play in tournaments at 400pts, that you can make 450/500pt fleets without buying more stuff? OK show me how, and I'll accept I'm hilariously wrong.

You are right, my build could use another two mc30s with the extra points, why do you think I own 5 MC30s?

I dont, cause that would be crazy...

I think the line of argument on the cost of ships has some merit. I may have 8 MC30's, but there may be someone out there that has 2 and a third is a few weeks of his disposable income. As such the idea that a 400 point game is a balance in cost of components and scope of game, well there is some sense of reason there.

I would just like to add to this if I may and I do apologise if this is a little off topic. I have minimal experience with Armada and have never played in a tournament and probably never will. I live in Queensland, Australia and I doubt that there are any near me anyway, not that I would look because I am a bit of a social introvert. In fact this is the first time that I have ever posted anything online at all.

I see both sides of the argument and for me personally I like seeing more ships and squadrons on the table as it brings me back to the very first time I saw Return of the Jedi. Does this mean that the standard games point limit needs to be increased, I don't know. I would say yes, but then I haven't tried to play 3-4 games in a day with limited time. I also think it is more complicated than just the logistics of a tournament or the cost to new players, sure those are factors but there are also balancing issues with the point system for objectives and the power of certain commanders for example.

I have been fortunate enough over the last week to have my brother visit from California and while he was here we have gotten a few games in. Sure we are probably doing some things wrong and we are sure not keeping to points limit, but playing this game reminds me of when we were growing up, watching Star Wars at my Dad's house once a year when it was repleted (Until I got them on VHS one special Christmas).

Anyway, I digress. My point is we have played three games so far, two 600 point games and a 800 point game, but we had to stop there as I didn't have enough Imperial stuff. I have some more imperial ships coming this week and we are going to play one final 1000 point game before he goes back. They were a lot of fun and absolutely epic, it really gave me the feeling of a Star Wars game. I can't comment about tournaments, but I can about causal games. I know the rules allow for you to pick any size fleet as long as both players agree, but I feel that is not enough. I definitely see the potential for FFG to expand on the "custom" rules and provide a guide for casual users to play much larger games. This could come in the form of an expansion like The Corellian Conflict, say "Battle of Endor" and be something like 1200 - 1600 point games. Having objectives and any other rules slightly modified officially by FFG would make it feel just that bit more satisfying than using "house rules". So far at 800 points we just doubled the objective points and that worked ok. Also, even at the higher points you still have to make tough decisions (Sure it is not really the same), but there is still that element just not at the same level.

I know I am the odd one out, but I am sure there are more people like me that enjoy playing this casually and probably will never go in a tournament. I understand that the game is set up for tournament play and casual players are a minority. Just remember as a casual player I have one of every expansion and I have duplicates and I plan to continue to do so including the Corellian Conflict Expansion and wave 3 and 4. I am even planning on getting 3 Liberty Expansions because they are my favorite ship.

Armada is a fantastic product and brings a lot of nostalgia for me and I hope in the future there are more defined rules around much larger battles for casual players.

In terms of raising points I'd rather they just split off the cost of taking squadrons from ships and had two separate pools. The thing that hurts me the most is that you can never really get enough fun toys and have any meaningful fighter cover and swarms of fighters are the most Star Warsy thing. And I'd rather see it so everyone has a stake in the squadron game, than just rock/paper/scissoring like it currently is.

And I'd rather see it so everyone has a stake in the squadron game, than just rock/paper/scissoring like it currently is.

While I do like the squadron part of the game, not everyone else does. What you're system would do is force them to take squadrons even though they don't want to. They would quite simply have no option because otherwise they're looking at a fairly massive points disadvantage.

The game was designed so fighters were truly optional, you can take them or not and not be at a huge disadvantage for that decision.

Not everyone understands how squadrons work. Sometimes people want to build lists without them, and sometimes people just forget they exist. Adding points for squadrons only is like what WarMachine did for they robots. They game free points so that people would take them and so people were forced to take them.

I don't like being forced to take squadrons if I don't want to. I like flexibility in my list building. There are people on both sides of this and we will never agree but for now, enjoy the flexibility and punish who don't take squadrons.

Ah right so your MC30 build, couldn't use another MC30 in it? and not be as effective right?

Hilariously wrong? in the fact that if you have bought enough to play in tournaments at 400pts, that you can make 450/500pt fleets without buying more stuff? OK show me how, and I'll accept I'm hilariously wrong.

You are right, my build could use another two mc30s with the extra points, why do you think I own 5 MC30s?

I dont, cause that would be crazy...

The point was if you have 1 friend you play the game with, there are very very good chances you both have extra ships that have been bought just for upgrade cards. So i am not seeing this extra cost issue.

Also you're telling me an extra activation/deployment or two could not be of use?

I really don't buy into the cost to play issue. Sorry.

I mean, where is the line? You could just as easily argue the jump to 400 points from 300 was too much if cost is your primary limiter. Adding 20 or 50 points to the game would not cost almost anyone that was already playing at 400 points anything extra, anyone who has bought at least 1 R&V and 1 faction fighter pack (which is the standard advice as a minimum to "buy at least one of everything") is GUARANTEED leaving squadrons in the box. You add 50 points and all it will do on average is allow people to use more of the stuff they already have.

I do agree that cost is an entry barrier into the game, but once you are in it is an incremental creep and once you can do 400 points its quite likely you are benching a bunch of stuff you already spent money on anyways.

I actually played a game (using my stuff for both sides, it kinda speaks to how much Armada I own that both of us had complete and legal Imperial fleets all built out of my collection and I still had piles and piles of stuff in the box!) just this weekend with a brand new player who had taken the time to learn the rules on his own and play several games on Tabletop Simulator and this was his first physical game of Armada. He had a dual ISD list he wanted to try and he really enjoyed playing it and did quite well, but when he asked me roughly how much it would cost to build the fleet he used and my rough mental tally hit about $300 it was a bit of a gut-punch for him.

I have to say, where I see the cost problem I also see other issue with the current point total.

I have seen way to may games both friendly and competitive where the game consist on 1 or 2 rounds of fire (rebel pack fleets) followed by many turns of Imperials chasing C90's around the board for the last few turns.

The problem I see is board coverage, The current point value favors small fast ships that can swoop in destroy a ship then avoid the rest of the enemy fleet for the reminder of the game.

It also IMHO force the Imperial player to play again IMHO Fleets that lose the Imperial big ship feel. When FFG has to invent a new ship (Raider) to make Imperials competitive I see a problem.

That said 600 points seem a bit much where 450-500 would be a good number.

Part of the cost to play thing to me seems to be because this is compared to X-Wing due to the same company making both, when Armada is more fairly compared to games like Firestorm Armada, Warmachine, and Warhammer in terms of cost only, whereas X-Wing is more like Infinity, Mercs, and Guildball in terms of entry cost.

Please note these comparisons are more for how much it costs to play, not how the games are played.

I really don't buy into the cost to play issue. Sorry.

I mean, where is the line? You could just as easily argue the jump to 400 points from 300 was too much if cost is your primary limiter. Adding 20 or 50 points to the game would not cost almost anyone that was already playing at 400 points anything extra, anyone who has bought at least 1 R&V and 1 faction fighter pack (which is the standard advice as a minimum to "buy at least one of everything") is GUARANTEED leaving squadrons in the box

I agree 400pts is an arbitary line, but it is the one they chose.

If this is a casual game, then fine add 50-100pts and I will happily add whatever I have.

If this is a tournament game, then no it is not acceptable to just add some rogues because I have spare. Its a tourney game, I takd great care in my fleet building and that wont be good enough for me.

And no, EasternKing, my mate does not have spare rebel ships lying about, because they have spare imperial ships.

I really don't buy into the cost to play issue. Sorry.

I mean, where is the line? You could just as easily argue the jump to 400 points from 300 was too much if cost is your primary limiter. Adding 20 or 50 points to the game would not cost almost anyone that was already playing at 400 points anything extra, anyone who has bought at least 1 R&V and 1 faction fighter pack (which is the standard advice as a minimum to "buy at least one of everything") is GUARANTEED leaving squadrons in the box. You add 50 points and all it will do on average is allow people to use more of the stuff they already have.

I do agree that cost is an entry barrier into the game, but once you are in it is an incremental creep and once you can do 400 points its quite likely you are benching a bunch of stuff you already spent money on anyways.

I actually played a game (using my stuff for both sides, it kinda speaks to how much Armada I own that both of us had complete and legal Imperial fleets all built out of my collection and I still had piles and piles of stuff in the box!) just this weekend with a brand new player who had taken the time to learn the rules on his own and play several games on Tabletop Simulator and this was his first physical game of Armada. He had a dual ISD list he wanted to try and he really enjoyed playing it and did quite well, but when he asked me roughly how much it would cost to build the fleet he used and my rough mental tally hit about $300 it was a bit of a gut-punch for him.

Sure, except I played a guy in a tournament this last Sunday who only had the core set, a Neb and CR90 expansion, for squadrons he had a Rebel and Rogues and Villains expansion.

Should we force new players to drop $250 just to play in a tournament becuase that's all a point increase will affect. Not casual play, just tournaments

I really don't buy into the cost to play issue. Sorry.

I mean, where is the line? You could just as easily argue the jump to 400 points from 300 was too much if cost is your primary limiter. Adding 20 or 50 points to the game would not cost almost anyone that was already playing at 400 points anything extra, anyone who has bought at least 1 R&V and 1 faction fighter pack (which is the standard advice as a minimum to "buy at least one of everything") is GUARANTEED leaving squadrons in the box. You add 50 points and all it will do on average is allow people to use more of the stuff they already have.

I do agree that cost is an entry barrier into the game, but once you are in it is an incremental creep and once you can do 400 points its quite likely you are benching a bunch of stuff you already spent money on anyways.

I actually played a game (using my stuff for both sides, it kinda speaks to how much Armada I own that both of us had complete and legal Imperial fleets all built out of my collection and I still had piles and piles of stuff in the box!) just this weekend with a brand new player who had taken the time to learn the rules on his own and play several games on Tabletop Simulator and this was his first physical game of Armada. He had a dual ISD list he wanted to try and he really enjoyed playing it and did quite well, but when he asked me roughly how much it would cost to build the fleet he used and my rough mental tally hit about $300 it was a bit of a gut-punch for him.

Sure, except I played a guy in a tournament this last Sunday who only had the core set, a Neb and CR90 expansion, for squadrons he had a Rebel and Rogues and Villains expansion.

Should we force new players to drop $250 just to play in a tournament becuase that's all a point increase will affect. Not casual play, just tournaments

Sure, why not?

If it makes for a better game, the answer is definitively yes.

In trying to build my local community I am meeting newer players to the game and like I said before and I'll say again, if you plan to play competitively you WILL buy more stuff than you will use and since as you said (proving my point for me) the point increase you particularly affect competitive players.

As a casual, you can pick up a core set, a neb and a corvette and push them around your table at any point total you like!

In my experience once people decide they like the game and further, decide they like to play competitively, the game is deliberately set up to make you buy more than you need! (anyone that ever wanted to run more than a couple firesprays and is now sitting on a pile of YVs you will NEVER EVER field know what I mean)

My argument is that the question pivots around whether 20 or 50 more points *makes for a better competitive game* not whether the trivial potential addition cost is a barrier (because as I've argued before once you can hit 400 and are competitive, it's not a big deal)

Not sure if it does or not. In my experience people either play 400 or they go nuts and play 600-800-1000-1500. A relatively tiny increase that could mean squeezing in another squad another flotilla and/or a few more upgrade cards probably won't RUIN the balance of the game, my gut instinct is that it will allow for balanced lists to be more competitive (especially at the +20 point level over the +50) by allowing some more edge case upgrades that help handle specific min/max archetypes while not exactly allowing an entire extra activation or significantly more squadrons in certain archetypes.

Since I have run a local area game store and run tournaments in my area for multiple game I like to throw in my 2 cents about the cost issue.

I have seen a trend with most if not all miniature games.

contrary to most peoples belief casual gamers tend to buy larger numbers and more variety of minis then competitive gamer's.

where a casual player will fork out the $50+ tax for a ISD just to have one a competitive gamer will not bother if is not on the meta list of the time or in this games case if it does not have a card they need.

competitive gamers tend to only buy what they need to build the current winning deck/fleet.

where casual gamers are more likely to build collections or get a mini because it looks cool or is iconic.

That said from my experience in multiple areas in the U.S. there tends to be way more casual gamers then competitive gamers in most areas.

so I don't see an increase of 50-100 as prohibitive to playing, its not going to scare players away since most new player are going to play as casual gamers to start with point total at what ever they want.

and switch to buying just what they need if they go competitive.

If it makes for a better game, the answer is definitively yes.

You'd be hard pressed to prove objectively that 500 points is a better game than 400. If someone could do that then there may be something to discuss. But until then 450, 500, 750 is all arbitrary numbers and IMO none of them are inherently better.

So why stay with 400? Because unless someone can show that a change is going to improve things the status quo is always easier and almost always better then change for the sake of change.

Tenchi2a has the right of it I think. As a competitive player I don't buy things I won't use but as a non competitive player I buy multiples of everything so I can play some crazy fun things like 6 Nebulon-B's or 4 MC30's! I also buy multiples so that I have extras to teach people and to let people play with things they might not have.

Hastatior, I think you are just looking at it from the wrong perspective but there seems no way to show you that so I will just stop.

I don't want a points increase, I don't want "free" squadron points, I like where the points stands becuase it is a challenge.

If you want more play it so in casual.

Yeah we have a different perspective.

Maybe your problem is that if it isn't your perspsective you automatically label it as "wrong", discard it and automatically argue against it regardless of any points made?

Yes I can play casual at any point total, but thats a pointless argument, the whole point here is to discuss an official point cap increase as that is the *only point cap that matters*

I say that the question pivots around whether a point increase will make a better game (which I think we can all agree is the pivotal question) and I said very clearly, and I quote: "I DON'T KNOW IF IT DOES OR NOT"

In other words, I am not standing by a definitive and close-minded position and arguing down all comers like a keyboard hero.

I *suspect* a small point increase *might* allow for a little more elbow room and therefore more versatility in the competitive scene. I have not tested this. I have not heard of this being tested. Therefore, I can't and won't fall into the fallacy of making definitive statements about the result. I'll leave that to you!

Maybe FFG is/has tested this. I don't know. It's their game and if tomorrow they decide to update the tourney rules to say 420 is the new point cap will you stop playing? I won't.

I would challenge people of both opinions to try building theoretical wave 4 fleets with 400 points and then 420 points, I bet the difference is not earth shattering and I *suspect* you might get the opportunity to add an upgrade that otherwise would have been too situational or a little too expensive, I don't know. I will give it a shot and see!

I think the versatility you desire can just be the typical gamers desire for more things in a list.

So the argument is that the competative player will buy just the stuff needed to make a 400pts list they want to play, and then stop cold buying more stuff from there...

hmm...I don't really buy that.

Would a competative player not gradually buy more stuff to stay competative, as new waves is gradually realeased?

Would a competative player not gradually buy more stuff to be able to make some small or big changes to his Wunderwaffe list to stay competative?

Look guys yes Armada is an expensive game to begin with, but most of us who can afford buying into the first 400pts, can as a bare minimum save up some money, from the paychecks we receive once a month, to buy atleast one exspansion pack a year. Which would be atleast around 50-100pts extra to the existing 400pts fleet.

This whole "Oh this is to expensive" argument reminds me of the whining I once heard in the Modelrailway club, when some members complained about the transportation cost per head, when we need to transport the layout to a Modelrailway exhibition. Depending on distance the cost is 10$ to 30$ and was viewed by some as expensive, while they at the same time brought along their +500$ collection of modelrailway locomotives and wagons.

When it comes to the bottom line, all miniature hobbies are expensive to pursue and you seldom earn money on it, but where they money goes is hopefully on the entertainment value you get out of it.

Just as much when you pay money to go on vacation or go to see a Star Wars movie

In some regards what you finding here is the disposable income used to fund the hobby activities.

If it takes you 4 months to save for the $400 for the 400 point fleet then that extra $100 dollars may seem to be trivial to that person.

When you look at a player just starting, and we are getting new starts now, that $500 may just be the difference between staying or leaving.

So the argument is that the competative player will buy just the stuff needed to make a 400pts list they want to play, and then stop cold buying more stuff from there...

hmm...I don't really buy that.

Would a competative player not gradually buy more stuff to stay competative, as new waves is gradually realeased?

Would a competative player not gradually buy more stuff to be able to make some small or big changes to his Wunderwaffe list to stay competative?

Look guys yes Armada is an expensive game to begin with, but most of us who can afford buying into the first 400pts, can as a bare minimum save up some money, from the paychecks we receive once a month, to buy atleast one exspansion pack a year. Which would be atleast around 50-100pts extra to the existing 400pts fleet.

This whole "Oh this is to expensive" argument reminds me of the whining I once heard in the Modelrailway club, when some members complained about the transportation cost per head, when we need to transport the layout to a Modelrailway exhibition. Depending on distance the cost is 10$ to 30$ and was viewed by some as expensive, while they at the same time brought along their +500$ collection of modelrailway locomotives and wagons.

When it comes to the bottom line, all miniature hobbies are expensive to pursue and you seldom earn money on it, but where they money goes is hopefully on the entertainment value you get out of it.

Just as much when you pay money to go on vacation or go to see a Star Wars movie

You kind of made my point with out even knowing it.

I was not saying that competitive player will not buy minis.

I was saying that using cost detracting new players from playing was a bad argument.

In some regards what you finding here is the disposable income used to fund the hobby activities.

If it takes you 4 months to save for the $400 for the 400 point fleet then that extra $100 dollars may seem to be trivial to that person.

When you look at a player just starting, and we are getting new starts now, that $500 may just be the difference between staying or leaving.

The cost play is around $100 + tax.

That will never change till the box set cost increases, anything else is gravy.

Contrary to popular belief store do not make their money on tournaments.

More often then not they lose money, its called a loss leader. the idea is to bring in people who will buy new star wars produce and other produces

when I had was running a store I made more money during Warhammer tournaments on Magic and other produces then the tournament and Warhammer minis.

tournament packs from some companies can run around $50. at $5 a head you need at least 10 people to break even. not to counting the loss of revenue from normal foot traffic caused by the volume of players in the store.

most of my regular none-tournament customers would not come in while a tournament was going on.

let look at this from another way, I have a 1 ISD and 1 GSD (using the lest Imperial meta I looked at)

tournament players comes in and wants 3 GSD because that's what the Imperial players are playing now. that 2 more GSD I have to order. taking in to account that stores pay 48% of retail for an item (going to kick in up to 50% for ease of math)

I pay $30 for the items ordered and make $30 but still have $25 worth of produce on the self net gain $5. remember that stock = loss in the business world.

so whats the point of all of this.

its that increases in points and new models equal profit.

whether its all that good for the game tends to take a back seat.

if they don't come out with new produce how do they make money.

new players have a saturation level. a point where the players you gain/lose balance out.

this means that if the rate of mini release doesn't over come this number something else has to (point increase)

now that's just my 2 cents.

I really don't buy into the cost to play issue. Sorry.

I mean, where is the line? You could just as easily argue the jump to 400 points from 300 was too much if cost is your primary limiter. Adding 20 or 50 points to the game would not cost almost anyone that was already playing at 400 points anything extra, anyone who has bought at least 1 R&V and 1 faction fighter pack (which is the standard advice as a minimum to "buy at least one of everything") is GUARANTEED leaving squadrons in the box

I agree 400pts is an arbitary line, but it is the one they chose.

If this is a casual game, then fine add 50-100pts and I will happily add whatever I have.

If this is a tournament game, then no it is not acceptable to just add some rogues because I have spare. Its a tourney game, I takd great care in my fleet building and that wont be good enough for me.

And no, EasternKing, my mate does not have spare rebel ships lying about, because they have spare imperial ships.

That is fine, maybe you guys just buy your own "side" and share stuff as needed.

Others will end up with opposing faction ships they bought for access to upgrade cards.