Tenchi2a has the right of it I think. As a competitive player I don't buy things I won't use but as a non competitive player I buy multiples of everything so I can play some crazy fun things like 6 Nebulon-B's or 4 MC30's! I also buy multiples so that I have extras to teach people and to let people play with things they might not have.

I am struggling with this (bolded and underlined) as a competitive player, you don't buy things you won't use. But as a casual you buy multiples?

Casuals buy minimally

Competitive players buy multiples

Somehow you think it is in reverse?

Does a casual game need 1 of each specific card? does it need 1 of each specific squadron? (I've used proxy squadrons before now in casual games.)

Does a competitive game need 1 of each specific card? does it need 1 of each type of squadron you have in your fleet?

So Lyr, which playstyle requires minimal spending, and which needs comprehensive spending? hint hint, the opposite to your statement.

Claiming you bought 6 Nebs for a wacky casual game is disingenuous, you bought most of them for X-17's, then got the idea for a 6 Neb fleet and bought a few more, and if it works well in the casual games, you, like everyone else will try it at a tournament.

Because casual games are where competitive players hone fleet builds in preparation for playing in competitions.

Tenchi2a has the right of it I think. As a competitive player I don't buy things I won't use but as a non competitive player I buy multiples of everything so I can play some crazy fun things like 6 Nebulon-B's or 4 MC30's! I also buy multiples so that I have extras to teach people and to let people play with things they might not have.

I am struggling with this (bolded and underlined) as a competitive player, you don't buy things you won't use. But as a casual you buy multiples?

Casuals buy minimally

Competitive players buy multiples

Somehow you think it is in reverse?

Does a casual game need 1 of each specific card? does it need 1 of each specific squadron? (I've used proxy squadrons before now in casual games.)

Does a competitive game need 1 of each specific card? does it need 1 of each type of squadron you have in your fleet?

So Lyr, which playstyle requires minimal spending, and which needs comprehensive spending? hint hint, the opposite to your statement.

Claiming you bought 6 Nebs for a wacky casual game is disingenuous, you bought most of them for X-17's, then got the idea for a 6 Neb fleet and bought a few more, and if it works well in the casual games, you, like everyone else will try it at a tournament.

Because casual games are where competitive players hone fleet builds in preparation for playing in competitions.

you don't seem to understand what casual player means in this context.

All it means is that you don't play competitively.

where not talking about the guy who buys the starter and nothing else. at that point by gaming store terms that a one-time customer not a casual player.

I'm a casual player for Armada (have been competitive in other games) and have 2 ISD, 3 VSD, 1 GSD , 3 Raiders, 2 squadron packs, and 1 Rogues and Villains pack.

as for your assumption that Casual players become competitive players the truth is that is rarely the case.

most competitive players I've met in my 40 years of life are competitive players from the start they don't became it from Casual gaming.

Tenchi2a has the right of it I think. As a competitive player I don't buy things I won't use but as a non competitive player I buy multiples of everything so I can play some crazy fun things like 6 Nebulon-B's or 4 MC30's! I also buy multiples so that I have extras to teach people and to let people play with things they might not have.

I am struggling with this (bolded and underlined) as a competitive player, you don't buy things you won't use. But as a casual you buy multiples?

Casuals buy minimally

Competitive players buy multiples

Somehow you think it is in reverse?

Does a casual game need 1 of each specific card? does it need 1 of each specific squadron? (I've used proxy squadrons before now in casual games.)

Does a competitive game need 1 of each specific card? does it need 1 of each type of squadron you have in your fleet?

So Lyr, which playstyle requires minimal spending, and which needs comprehensive spending? hint hint, the opposite to your statement.

Claiming you bought 6 Nebs for a wacky casual game is disingenuous, you bought most of them for X-17's, then got the idea for a 6 Neb fleet and bought a few more, and if it works well in the casual games, you, like everyone else will try it at a tournament.

Because casual games are where competitive players hone fleet builds in preparation for playing in competitions.

you don't seem to understand what casual player means in this context.

All it means is that you don't play competitively.

where not talking about the guy who buys the starter and nothing else. at that point by gaming store terms that a one-time customer not a casual player.

I'm a casual player for Armada (have been competitive in other games) and have 2 ISD, 3 VSD, 1 GSD , 3 Raiders, 2 squadron packs, and 1 Rogues and Villains pack.

as for your assumption that Casual players become competitive players the truth is that is rarely the case.

most competitive players I've met in my 40 years of life are competitive players from the start they don't became it from Casual gaming.

I'm a casual gamer, in fact I had not played in competition "game" for over 15 years before I went to my first Armada tournament.

Armada competitively forces you to buy multiple ships for upgrade cards, I have made my peace with this, and I am not arguing about it. But you need 1 card per upgrade of that type, you do NOT need to do so when you play casually.

Are you following my point?

Casual does not mean some guy who bought the base game and not much else, because I have spent a fortune on this game, and I probably play 10xs the amount of casual games than I do "competitive" ones.

And competitive gamers just start out competitive gamers? did you really just say that? No one starts out "competitive", everyone starts some where as a casual, learning to play for the first time.

Tenchi2a has the right of it I think. As a competitive player I don't buy things I won't use but as a non competitive player I buy multiples of everything so I can play some crazy fun things like 6 Nebulon-B's or 4 MC30's! I also buy multiples so that I have extras to teach people and to let people play with things they might not have.

I am struggling with this (bolded and underlined) as a competitive player, you don't buy things you won't use. But as a casual you buy multiples?

Casuals buy minimally

Competitive players buy multiples

Somehow you think it is in reverse?

Does a casual game need 1 of each specific card? does it need 1 of each specific squadron? (I've used proxy squadrons before now in casual games.)

Does a competitive game need 1 of each specific card? does it need 1 of each type of squadron you have in your fleet?

So Lyr, which playstyle requires minimal spending, and which needs comprehensive spending? hint hint, the opposite to your statement.

Claiming you bought 6 Nebs for a wacky casual game is disingenuous, you bought most of them for X-17's, then got the idea for a 6 Neb fleet and bought a few more, and if it works well in the casual games, you, like everyone else will try it at a tournament.

Because casual games are where competitive players hone fleet builds in preparation for playing in competitions.

you don't seem to understand what casual player means in this context.

All it means is that you don't play competitively.

where not talking about the guy who buys the starter and nothing else. at that point by gaming store terms that a one-time customer not a casual player.

I'm a casual player for Armada (have been competitive in other games) and have 2 ISD, 3 VSD, 1 GSD , 3 Raiders, 2 squadron packs, and 1 Rogues and Villains pack.

as for your assumption that Casual players become competitive players the truth is that is rarely the case.

most competitive players I've met in my 40 years of life are competitive players from the start they don't became it from Casual gaming.

I'm a casual gamer, in fact I had not played in competition "game" for over 15 years before I went to my first Armada tournament.

Armada competitively forces you to buy multiple ships for upgrade cards, I have made my peace with this, and I am not arguing about it. But you need 1 card per upgrade of that type, you do NOT need to do so when you play casually.

Are you following my point?

Casual does not mean some guy who bought the base game and not much else, because I have spent a fortune on this game, and I probably play 10xs the amount of casual games than I do "competitive" ones.

And competitive gamers just start out competitive gamers? did you really just say that? No one starts out "competitive", everyone starts some where as a casual, learning to play for the first time.

again you take the meaning of what I said wrong, not saying its your fault could be the way I said it.

just because you personally by that much does not mean all competitive gamers do.

your seem to be speaking from your experience as a player (I could be wrong) where I am taking the view of a former seller and tournament organizer.

you see what you and your friends buy I see what everyone in my area buys (and its a big area).

from this exp. I can say that most of my sale were to non-tournament player.

as to the competitive gamers comment.

yes everyone starts out some where, but in my exp. a person is either competitive or casual from the start. he does not become competitive from playing the game casual he gets into the game because he wants to compete.

whether he new or old he was competitive from the start.

sorry phone had to hit post so I didn't lose what I had written

anyway to that comment that casual play prepares you for tournament play I have to disagree.

only tournament play prepares you for tournament play.

the problem is that casual players tend to build fleets that are fun to play or to see what they can make.

where as tournament players build decks to the latest meta to win.

now else you are playing against mostly tournament players then your games will not be a test of your fleets effectiveness in a tournament.

so in-effect you would learn nothing, and may develop some bad habits learning this way, but again this is from my exp. and may not be right 100% of the time.

Tenchi2a has the right of it I think. As a competitive player I don't buy things I won't use but as a non competitive player I buy multiples of everything so I can play some crazy fun things like 6 Nebulon-B's or 4 MC30's! I also buy multiples so that I have extras to teach people and to let people play with things they might not have.

I am struggling with this (bolded and underlined) as a competitive player, you don't buy things you won't use. But as a casual you buy multiples?

Casuals buy minimally

Competitive players buy multiples

Somehow you think it is in reverse?

Does a casual game need 1 of each specific card? does it need 1 of each specific squadron? (I've used proxy squadrons before now in casual games.)

Does a competitive game need 1 of each specific card? does it need 1 of each type of squadron you have in your fleet?

So Lyr, which playstyle requires minimal spending, and which needs comprehensive spending? hint hint, the opposite to your statement.

Claiming you bought 6 Nebs for a wacky casual game is disingenuous, you bought most of them for X-17's, then got the idea for a 6 Neb fleet and bought a few more, and if it works well in the casual games, you, like everyone else will try it at a tournament.

Because casual games are where competitive players hone fleet builds in preparation for playing in competitions.

I disagree, I have a friend who plays casually and he has far more ships than I. In fact, he has one of the largest collections in the area. He has 6 CR90's, 3 Assault Frigates, 4 Nebulon-B's, 4 MC30's, 2 MC80's, 4 Rogues and Villains, 4 Imperial and rebel squadrons packs, 4 Raiders, 3 GSD's, 3 VSD's and 2 Imperial Star Destroyers.

I beat him in Nebulon-B's only.

He has played in tournaments but rarely.

A player can play for casual reasons and for competitive reasons. I don't aim to win all the tournaments I attend some I do.

sorry phone had to hit post so I didn't lose what I had written

anyway to that comment that casual play prepares you for tournament play I have to disagree.

only tournament play prepares you for tournament play.

the problem is that casual players tend to build fleets that are fun to play or to see what they can make.

where as tournament players build decks to the latest meta to win.

now else you are playing against mostly tournament players then your games will not be a test of your fleets effectiveness in a tournament.

so in-effect you would learn nothing, and may develop some bad habits learning this way, but again this is from my exp. and may not be right 100% of the time.

Look, when you learn to play a game, you do not do so in a tournament.

when you have an idea for a fleet, and you want to refine it, test it, see how it will work, you do so in casual games, you do not take a concept to a tournament off of the bat.

When you play casually, and you want to put APT on 5 Imperial ships, you do not even need a single copy of APT, you can by FFG say so, just use a photocopy of one.

When you play that fleet in a tournament, you have to buy 5 MC30 packs to get 5 APTS, or you aren't using it.

When you play casually, and you want to try out 8 Firesprays, you can proxy them with Tie Fighters

When you play in a tournament and you want 8 firesprays, you buy 8 R&V packs, or you don't use them.

That is what I mean by, tournaments require more spending than casual play, not casuals do not spend or cannot spend more than tournament players.

And when you play casually, you learn the game, then you can go play in a Tournament, or are you really trying to tell me, that a person who never played the game, should go learn to play in a tournament. Armada is the same game casual as it is in a tournament, except where proxies are concerned.

sorry phone had to hit post so I didn't lose what I had written

anyway to that comment that casual play prepares you for tournament play I have to disagree.

only tournament play prepares you for tournament play.

the problem is that casual players tend to build fleets that are fun to play or to see what they can make.

where as tournament players build decks to the latest meta to win.

now else you are playing against mostly tournament players then your games will not be a test of your fleets effectiveness in a tournament.

so in-effect you would learn nothing, and may develop some bad habits learning this way, but again this is from my exp. and may not be right 100% of the time.

Look, when you learn to play a game, you do not do so in a tournament.

when you have an idea for a fleet, and you want to refine it, test it, see how it will work, you do so in casual games, you do not take a concept to a tournament off of the bat.

When you play casually, and you want to put APT on 5 Imperial ships, you do not even need a single copy of APT, you can by FFG say so, just use a photocopy of one.

When you play that fleet in a tournament, you have to buy 5 MC30 packs to get 5 APTS, or you aren't using it.

When you play casually, and you want to try out 8 Firesprays, you can proxy them with Tie Fighters

When you play in a tournament and you want 8 firesprays, you buy 8 R&V packs, or you don't use them.

That is what I mean by, tournaments require more spending than casual play, not casuals do not spend or cannot spend more than tournament players.

And when you play casually, you learn the game, then you can go play in a Tournament, or are you really trying to tell me, that a person who never played the game, should go learn to play in a tournament. Armada is the same game casual as it is in a tournament, except where proxies are concerned.

If you choose to proxy them. Some players want to have the models to play those lists (I do and I am not always going for the competitive side)

Some competitive players would rather borrow the pieces they can. IceQube did that I believes with his yt2400's.

sorry phone had to hit post so I didn't lose what I had written

anyway to that comment that casual play prepares you for tournament play I have to disagree.

only tournament play prepares you for tournament play.

the problem is that casual players tend to build fleets that are fun to play or to see what they can make.

where as tournament players build decks to the latest meta to win.

now else you are playing against mostly tournament players then your games will not be a test of your fleets effectiveness in a tournament.

so in-effect you would learn nothing, and may develop some bad habits learning this way, but again this is from my exp. and may not be right 100% of the time.

Look, when you learn to play a game, you do not do so in a tournament.

when you have an idea for a fleet, and you want to refine it, test it, see how it will work, you do so in casual games, you do not take a concept to a tournament off of the bat.

When you play casually, and you want to put APT on 5 Imperial ships, you do not even need a single copy of APT, you can by FFG say so, just use a photocopy of one.

When you play that fleet in a tournament, you have to buy 5 MC30 packs to get 5 APTS, or you aren't using it.

When you play casually, and you want to try out 8 Firesprays, you can proxy them with Tie Fighters

When you play in a tournament and you want 8 firesprays, you buy 8 R&V packs, or you don't use them.

That is what I mean by, tournaments require more spending than casual play, not casuals do not spend or cannot spend more than tournament players.

And when you play casually, you learn the game, then you can go play in a Tournament, or are you really trying to tell me, that a person who never played the game, should go learn to play in a tournament. Armada is the same game casual as it is in a tournament, except where proxies are concerned.

again your are putting words in my mouth.

never once did I said you learn to play the game in tournaments thats what the box set is for.

you had said you learn fleet building for tournaments in casual play and if you read my comment I don't agree.

knowing game mechanics is a small part of fleet building, another part is how minis/cards work together, but the most important part is how your fleet works against other tournaments fleets

which is hard to do if you are play casually. you could build a fleet that wins 100% of the time outside of a tournament but loses every time at a tournament.

the point I was making is that casual play does not prepare you to be competitive in tournament play.

on the proxy issue you would be hard pressed to find anyone in my area that would allow this. proxies are something you do at home with you kids or when you and your friends are just starting out you don't go to your local store and say my Tie is Dengar. they would point you to the rack and say he right there buy it. or at some of the nicer places someone will lean you one to run.

sorry phone had to hit post so I didn't lose what I had written

anyway to that comment that casual play prepares you for tournament play I have to disagree.

only tournament play prepares you for tournament play.

the problem is that casual players tend to build fleets that are fun to play or to see what they can make.

where as tournament players build decks to the latest meta to win.

now else you are playing against mostly tournament players then your games will not be a test of your fleets effectiveness in a tournament.

so in-effect you would learn nothing, and may develop some bad habits learning this way, but again this is from my exp. and may not be right 100% of the time.

Look, when you learn to play a game, you do not do so in a tournament.

when you have an idea for a fleet, and you want to refine it, test it, see how it will work, you do so in casual games, you do not take a concept to a tournament off of the bat.

When you play casually, and you want to put APT on 5 Imperial ships, you do not even need a single copy of APT, you can by FFG say so, just use a photocopy of one.

When you play that fleet in a tournament, you have to buy 5 MC30 packs to get 5 APTS, or you aren't using it.

When you play casually, and you want to try out 8 Firesprays, you can proxy them with Tie Fighters

When you play in a tournament and you want 8 firesprays, you buy 8 R&V packs, or you don't use them.

That is what I mean by, tournaments require more spending than casual play, not casuals do not spend or cannot spend more than tournament players.

And when you play casually, you learn the game, then you can go play in a Tournament, or are you really trying to tell me, that a person who never played the game, should go learn to play in a tournament. Armada is the same game casual as it is in a tournament, except where proxies are concerned.

again your are putting words in my mouth.

never once did I said you learn to play the game in tournaments thats what the box set is for.

you had said you learn fleet building for tournaments in casual play and if you read my comment I don't agree.

knowing game mechanics is a small part of fleet building, another part is how minis/cards work together, but the most important part is how your fleet works against other tournaments fleets

which is hard to do if you are play casually. you could build a fleet that wins 100% of the time outside of a tournament but loses every time at a tournament.

the point I was making is that casual play does not prepare you to be competitive in tournament play.

on the proxy issue you would be hard pressed to find anyone in my area that would allow this. proxies are something you do at home with you kids or when you and your friends are just starting out you don't go to your local store and say my Tie is Dengar. they would point you to the rack and say he right there buy it. or at some of the nicer places someone will lean you one to run.

I dunno what point you are trying to make.

Would you like a recap?

Someone said, "raising the cap to 500pts, would deter new players from tournament play, due to the additional cost."

I replied to that with "Tournament building is already prohibitively expensive, and most people have extra stuff, I certainly do, my friends certainly do, because you need exact amounts of upgrade cards / squadrons, for a legal tournament build. I can hit 500pts right now, without buying a single wave 3 or 4 ship."

"In comparison it is relatively cheap to play casually."

Now somehow you have gone off on a wild tangent.

I tried explaining why it is so much more expensive to just build for a tournament, you feel I am being disparaging to "casual" players, even though I am, and my friends are.

You also seem to think that having an idea for a fleet, you don't play casual games to see how it works generally, and if it needs tweaking, before trying it in a tournament, I must admit I am scratching my head over this one, I do it, my friends do it, Lyr himself has done it, in fact it would be a dang safe bet to say most people who played in tournaments tried their build in casual games with friends, before hand.

Proxy issue : Me and my friends have done it, we don't go to a store to play, I know I am not the only one, FFG state it loud and clearly PROXY is fine in casual play, read none tournament play. They say "no you do not need 1 copy per ship for each upgrade, 1 is just fine. so who the hell are you to "allow" this, or not?

You think FFG saying its fine, and acceptable, gets overridden by random players? just lol expecting someone to buy 5 MC30's when they just play Imperial and never ever enter tournaments, because you wouldn't allow them to do something FFG have sanctioned for casual play? sure buddy, you cough up the dough.

My friends and I play Casually Competitive.

I have bought the exact right number of ships for me, whatever that may be. I have an unopened ISD for anyone that can get the number of core boxes, and each ship and squadron pack I have purchased. I am pretty confident that I'll not be needing to buy said ISD and drop it in the post.

In some regards what you finding here is the disposable income used to fund the hobby activities.

If it takes you 4 months to save for the $400 for the 400 point fleet then that extra $100 dollars may seem to be trivial to that person.

When you look at a player just starting, and we are getting new starts now, that $500 may just be the difference between staying or leaving.

The cost play is around $100 + tax.

I would like to see you put that to the test, play nothing but the contents of a single core box in your next tournament or 400 point game and let us know how that goes. :ph34r:

A 300 point bid will be entertaining.

It's (sic) that increases in points and new models equal profit.

This is not true, do we need to talk about supply and demand?

In some regards what you finding here is the disposable income used to fund the hobby activities.

If it takes you 4 months to save for the $400 for the 400 point fleet then that extra $100 dollars may seem to be trivial to that person.

When you look at a player just starting, and we are getting new starts now, that $500 may just be the difference between staying or leaving.

The cost play is around $100 + tax.

I would like to see you put that to the test, play nothing but the contents of a single core box in your next tournament or 400 point game and let us know how that goes. :ph34r:

A 300 point bid will be entertaining.

It's (sic) that increases in points and new models equal profit.

This is not true, do we need to talk about supply and demand?

on the first point you took me way out of context.

I was responding to the statement that increasing the tournament point cap makes it cost prohibitive for new players to get and learn the game.

when raising the tournament point cap has no effect on new players, the box set still cost $100 and the base casual level is still 300 point.

so it cost new players the same amount to player whether the tournament cap is 400 or 500 points.

if the player is going to go on to tournament play I don't think 100 point more which can be as low one more ship is going to brake his bank.

and on to the second commit first let me say changing what I say in my post is not a good way to win an argument.

I may dis agree with TheEasternKing but at least he doesn't alter my post.

not sure you understand it so would probably be a waste of time to discuss it.

what I said was the very foundation of supply and demand.

if everyone has the minis you need to come up with new ones to create new demand. (new minis)

fail that you need to inflate demand by increasing the amount of produce needed.(higher point caps)

can't be much clear then that mini wargames companies have been doing this for years.

let us hope this is all FFG does, and we don't get the Games Workshop answer of a new edition every so many years.

all you minis are now useless and you need to buy a whole new army lol.

sorry phone had to hit post so I didn't lose what I had written

anyway to that comment that casual play prepares you for tournament play I have to disagree.

only tournament play prepares you for tournament play.

the problem is that casual players tend to build fleets that are fun to play or to see what they can make.

where as tournament players build decks to the latest meta to win.

now else you are playing against mostly tournament players then your games will not be a test of your fleets effectiveness in a tournament.

so in-effect you would learn nothing, and may develop some bad habits learning this way, but again this is from my exp. and may not be right 100% of the time.

Look, when you learn to play a game, you do not do so in a tournament.

when you have an idea for a fleet, and you want to refine it, test it, see how it will work, you do so in casual games, you do not take a concept to a tournament off of the bat.

When you play casually, and you want to put APT on 5 Imperial ships, you do not even need a single copy of APT, you can by FFG say so, just use a photocopy of one.

When you play that fleet in a tournament, you have to buy 5 MC30 packs to get 5 APTS, or you aren't using it.

When you play casually, and you want to try out 8 Firesprays, you can proxy them with Tie Fighters

When you play in a tournament and you want 8 firesprays, you buy 8 R&V packs, or you don't use them.

That is what I mean by, tournaments require more spending than casual play, not casuals do not spend or cannot spend more than tournament players.

And when you play casually, you learn the game, then you can go play in a Tournament, or are you really trying to tell me, that a person who never played the game, should go learn to play in a tournament. Armada is the same game casual as it is in a tournament, except where proxies are concerned.

again your are putting words in my mouth.

never once did I said you learn to play the game in tournaments thats what the box set is for.

you had said you learn fleet building for tournaments in casual play and if you read my comment I don't agree.

knowing game mechanics is a small part of fleet building, another part is how minis/cards work together, but the most important part is how your fleet works against other tournaments fleets

which is hard to do if you are play casually. you could build a fleet that wins 100% of the time outside of a tournament but loses every time at a tournament.

the point I was making is that casual play does not prepare you to be competitive in tournament play.

on the proxy issue you would be hard pressed to find anyone in my area that would allow this. proxies are something you do at home with you kids or when you and your friends are just starting out you don't go to your local store and say my Tie is Dengar. they would point you to the rack and say he right there buy it. or at some of the nicer places someone will lean you one to run.

I dunno what point you are trying to make.

Would you like a recap?

Someone said, "raising the cap to 500pts, would deter new players from tournament play, due to the additional cost."

I replied to that with "Tournament building is already prohibitively expensive, and most people have extra stuff, I certainly do, my friends certainly do, because you need exact amounts of upgrade cards / squadrons, for a legal tournament build. I can hit 500pts right now, without buying a single wave 3 or 4 ship."

"In comparison it is relatively cheap to play casually."

Now somehow you have gone off on a wild tangent.

I tried explaining why it is so much more expensive to just build for a tournament, you feel I am being disparaging to "casual" players, even though I am, and my friends are.

You also seem to think that having an idea for a fleet, you don't play casual games to see how it works generally, and if it needs tweaking, before trying it in a tournament, I must admit I am scratching my head over this one, I do it, my friends do it, Lyr himself has done it, in fact it would be a dang safe bet to say most people who played in tournaments tried their build in casual games with friends, before hand.

Proxy issue : Me and my friends have done it, we don't go to a store to play, I know I am not the only one, FFG state it loud and clearly PROXY is fine in casual play, read none tournament play. They say "no you do not need 1 copy per ship for each upgrade, 1 is just fine. so who the hell are you to "allow" this, or not?

You think FFG saying its fine, and acceptable, gets overridden by random players? just lol expecting someone to buy 5 MC30's when they just play Imperial and never ever enter tournaments, because you wouldn't allow them to do something FFG have sanctioned for casual play? sure buddy, you cough up the dough.

look I going to say this first I respect you and your opinions.

I say this because this seems to be getting more heated then it should be.

this was at first many different response that should have been separated but overtime(my fault) somehow got pushed together. (was on 4 different topic boards at the same time.)

1. I was responding to the statement that increasing the tournament point cap makes it cost prohibitive for new players to get and learn the game.

on the issue of proxies I never said I would not allow them and in not way was I saying they should not be allow.

what I was saying is that in my area no player I know would allow them for anybody but a brand new player, in his first few games.

after that they have the opinion they had to buy it so do you.

I find people who are good at 400 tend to hate increases as it means fighters and larger ships become a huge threat as you don't have to compromise them as much to fit them in an effective list. I can get a ISD with support ships and a fighter screen at 600 points that is not compromised and will be effective on all levels. At 400 points something has to be compromised. I prefer 600-800 point game but they take longer but are way more interesting and tend to go down to the wire more. Even an opponent the normally runs you over will typical not be able to just table you as you probably didn't compromise on the thing he likes to exploit.

I find people who are good at 400 tend to hate increases as it means fighters and larger ships become a huge threat as you don't have to compromise them as much to fit them in an effective list. I can get a ISD with support ships and a fighter screen at 600 points that is not compromised and will be effective on all levels. At 400 points something has to be compromised. I prefer 600-800 point game but they take longer but are way more interesting and tend to go down to the wire more. Even an opponent the normally runs you over will typical not be able to just table you as you probably didn't compromise on the thing he likes to exploit.

That is indeed a reason for it. It also comes down to the time it takes to play. . .

I suck at 400, and I'm still not wanting to change it.

The points of upgrades are nominally costed to work at the 400pt level.

Changing that level on competitiveness changes the balance between points costs, intended value, and actual useage of certain upgrades over others...

Until all that information can be known and catalogued, there's no way I'm advocating a change away from 'design intended'.

I suck at 400, and I'm still not wanting to change it.

The points of upgrades are nominally costed to work at the 400pt level.

Changing that level on competitiveness changes the balance between points costs, intended value, and actual useage of certain upgrades over others...

Until all that information can be known and catalogued, there's no way I'm advocating a change away from 'design intended'.

I hear this a lot, but when was the cap changed from the initial 300 in the core box to 400.

if it was early in the first wave I would say you are right, but if it happened later then I would have to disagree

my reasoning is if the change was quick they could have planed it from the beginning

otherwise it was a change brought on by players field testing the game (tournaments, casual play)

I suck at 400, and I'm still not wanting to change it.

The points of upgrades are nominally costed to work at the 400pt level.

Changing that level on competitiveness changes the balance between points costs, intended value, and actual useage of certain upgrades over others...

Until all that information can be known and catalogued, there's no way I'm advocating a change away from 'design intended'.

I hear this a lot, but when was the cap changed from the initial 300 in the core box to 400.

if it was early in the first wave I would say you are right, but if it happened later then I would have to disagree

my reasoning is if the change was quick they could have planed it from the beginning

otherwise it was a change brought on by players field testing the game (tournaments, casual play)

No, it has been stated by FFG that it was always intended to be 400pts, but they held off the last 100pts until they had large ships to soak up the point cost... Because as a new game, they were not expecting full-and-total buy-in until the game was "basically complete", and that did not happen to wave 2.

The wording was, originally:

"With the release of Wave 2, we are finally ready to step up to the intended tournament game size of 400 points."

... The time per round was switched around a little with Player and tournament feedback, but the word from Interviews in FFG's own mouth, was that 400 points was always intended, and the game was intended to be that way from the start - the stepping stones were stopgaps, that regrettably took longer than they intended. (Which is why we got Sullust).

I suck at 400, and I'm still not wanting to change it.

The points of upgrades are nominally costed to work at the 400pt level.

Changing that level on competitiveness changes the balance between points costs, intended value, and actual useage of certain upgrades over others...

Until all that information can be known and catalogued, there's no way I'm advocating a change away from 'design intended'.

I hear this a lot, but when was the cap changed from the initial 300 in the core box to 400.

if it was early in the first wave I would say you are right, but if it happened later then I would have to disagree

my reasoning is if the change was quick they could have planed it from the beginning

otherwise it was a change brought on by players field testing the game (tournaments, casual play)

No, it has been stated by FFG that it was always intended to be 400pts, but they held off the last 100pts until they had large ships to soak up the point cost... Because as a new game, they were not expecting full-and-total buy-in until the game was "basically complete", and that did not happen to wave 2.

The wording was, originally:

"With the release of Wave 2, we are finally ready to step up to the intended tournament game size of 400 points."

... The time per round was switched around a little with Player and tournament feedback, but the word from Interviews in FFG's own mouth, was that 400 points was always intended, and the game was intended to be that way from the start - the stepping stones were stopgaps, that regrettably took longer than they intended. (Which is why we got Sullust).

Ok did not know that so it was planed so as I said if they planed it I agree with you