FFG officially sanctioned 400pt games of X-wing, no?

That means the standard game is 400pts, but tournaments are kept to 100pts, or do you perhaps think more people play tournaments than play the game with friends?

They can officially sanction 450-500-600pts for Armada, keep it at 400 for tournaments, or change that as well.

If that is the way you are reasoning, I can't really argue with you. But I'm pretty sure that if you ask every X-Wing players what they consider a standard game of X-Wing, pretty much everyone will tell you that it is the 100 pts game.

Also, I never said that I don't see FFG creating another format with more points, in fact, I said the opposite, that I could see them do that (message #68). But that would not be bumping the standard game point cap, it would be creating a second format. Bumping the standard game point cap would be like what they did when they raised Armada point cap from 300 to 400: 300 pts game stopped being the official tournament format and got replaced by 400 pts game. That's the nuance, Epic X-Wing didn't replaced the 100 pts game, it just gave another format with more points.

As for dismissing the casual players, I don't get why you think that I don't consider them. I made it pretty clear in my first message on this thread (message #4) that in a casual game, you can do whatever you want. Then I reiterate it when I first replied to you (message #66), that there is nothing preventing you, or anyone else, to organise their own tournament with a higher or lower point cap. Doesn't mean that it will suddenly be considered a standard format game though, it will be a variant.

But my point stands, to keep people buying stuff they officially increased the points cap, and boy did they increase the points cap, 100----->400.

No, I don't think your point stands. Epic format or not, X-Wing would continue to sell and grow. It was doing pretty well before Epic. Epic was created to include Huge ship that was too big for the standard game, not to keep people buying stuff. Remove the Epic format entirely, and I'm sure that X-Wing sales will stay the same (except of course for the Huge ship that you could not use otherwise). In fact, to make sure that people bought those Huge ship, they had to include cards that is useful in the 100 pts standard game that you could not find anywhere else, like 3P0, Palpatine, the Advanced fix, etc. Those cards meant for the 100pts is what drove most people to buy the Huge ship, not the Epic format they are meant for. I would be really curious to know how many CR90, Transport, Raider and Gozanti sits on shelves amassing dust never seeing play because people bought them for the cards.

Or, more to your point, do you really think that X-Wing would have tanked if FFG never created the Epic format? That the Epic format is what kept people buying into X-Wing? Because if so, we really don't have the same echo from the community.

I rarely see a game of X-Wing above 100 points. Even multi-player games are 100 points. When they play epic they keep to 300.

The point you cannot seem to accept is : FFG sanctioned a points increase because they wanted people to keep buying.

It is optional outside of tournaments, sure, but FFG recognised that increasing points was warranted.

So FFG could keep it locked at 400pts, or they could change it, there is a precedent for it.

The problem with Armada is that its not simultaneous activation. Its literally turn based. Its slow! Its really slow. As you increase ships, the only way you make it go at the same speed is taht you make your mvoes and decisions faster and don't think about the minute details... like, if I actually whip my tail out, I could ram him. Or. Should I keep this squadron close by for orders during sq movement. Now which squadron do I activate? That one won't be activated by a ship this turn, but that one has bomber. UGH. So many decisions.

No.

Now, I'm working on making a wholly new alternate rule set for simultaneous movement in Armada and also having different effects from being hit in certain arcs that make the game much more strategic on how you approach something. (Each ship also doubles its hull value. At normal hull, you're crippled, but it takes double the hull to totally blast the ship to smithereens.)

Points will likely be reduced to 200 points or even a single or two ships for campaign purposes. And the fate of the crews on the ships will matter. Did captain blah blah get sucked out of the explosion? Did they do dishonorable damage and hit the medical bay?

The point you cannot seem to accept is : FFG sanctioned a points increase because they wanted people to keep buying.

It is optional outside of tournaments, sure, but FFG recognised that increasing points was warranted.

So FFG could keep it locked at 400pts, or they could change it, there is a precedent for it.

It's not that that I don't accept it, it's that I disagree with your perception on the matter. I don't think they have created the Huge ship and Epic ship specifically to keep people buying into this game.

More specifically, what you imply from the beginning, and that I don't agree with, is that FFG needed to create a format with more points to keep people buying into this game. What this imply is that if they didn't create the Epic format, people would have lose interest in X-Wing or stop buying more ship. I disagree. FFG didn't had to create Epic format to keep people buying into to game. The game was doing just fine and even without the Epic format, people would have continue buying into the game. Did Epic helped make more sales? Of course! Was it needed to keep people buying into X-Wing? No. FFG didn't had to.

So I'll ask you again, because that's what you imply: Do you really think that the Epic Format is what kept people buying into X-Wing? That without the Epic format, people would have see no reason to continue buying new ships wave after wave after wave? Because that's what you said at first and that I didn't agree with:

Also this is a capital ship game, a FLEET game, if they do not increase the points cap, we are going to dead end on buying, because I am not continuing to buy ships, when I have a massive limitation on how many of them I can actually use to play the game with, and that is not even including the duplicates you have to buy for upgrade cards. ( Yes if you want to play in Armada tournaments, duplicates are needed.)

My opinion is that even if they don't ever create a Epic format for Armada or raise the point cap, people will continue to buy more ship wave after wave after wave and the game will be just fine.

My opinion regarding the creation of a Epic format for Armada: Yes, I think it would be nice and a good way to introduce bigger ship. I see it happening, but not as a point cap increase, but as a different game format.

....

And now I don't know how to continue to find new ways to repeat myself, because that's what I feel like doing in this thread. So I'll just stop responding on this matter, it has derailed the thread long enough.

The point you cannot seem to accept is : FFG sanctioned a points increase because they wanted people to keep buying.

It is optional outside of tournaments, sure, but FFG recognised that increasing points was warranted.

So FFG could keep it locked at 400pts, or they could change it, there is a precedent for it.

If I recall, you play other miniature games, if so, you should know then that there must be limitations on list building.

I don't want 3 hour games 3 to 4 times in a single day for just a tournament. I don't know many who do. So don't buy the beautiful Interdictor or Liberty bit it's your loss. I will have fun with my set and I will let the challenge of building a 400 point list excite me.

Also, Epic scale X-Wing has been a complete flop - hence why we have Armada. Armada learns a tonne of lessons from X-Wing epic, such as needing different attack dice for different weapons strengths, and different range capabilities. There have only ever been two ships released for Epic, the second of which I get the impression (after the massive delay) is because they felt they had to release an imperial ship to balance the format. I would be very surprised if we see any more ever released.

I don't want 3 hour games 3 to 4 times in a single day for just a tournament. I don't know many who do. So don't buy the beautiful Interdictor or Liberty bit it's your loss. I will have fun with my set and I will let the challenge of building a 400 point list excite me.

Given that it is an economic dilemma in that you have too many choices and not enough points, why do you think there isn't a similar challenge in 500 points?

As for the time people tend to play as to finish, in the years I played Flames of War we ran a variety of points. When you play with few points you end up being much more careful about things as you have fewer to lose, with more points you speed up as each move seems less important individually.

Also, Epic scale X-Wing has been a complete flop - hence why we have Armada. Armada learns a tonne of lessons from X-Wing epic, such as needing different attack dice for different weapons strengths, and different range capabilities. There have only ever been two ships released for Epic, the second of which I get the impression (after the massive delay) is because they felt they had to release an imperial ship to balance the format. I would be very surprised if we see any more ever released.

There is currently 4 ship for Epic: Rebel Transport, CR90 Corvette, Raider and Gozanti.

Thing is, the rules for the Huge ship and Epic game were a mess at first, and even with the couple modifications they made, it's hard to have a good value in game from your huge ship. But I still expect them to release a Huge ship for the Scum faction, people will still buy it for the probable fix they'll include for one of the scum ship (probably the Scyk or Starviper).

FFG officially sanctioned 400pt games of X-wing, no?

100 points is the standard size for X-Wing games. 300 points is the standard size for Epic games, which includes epic points and is not the standard game. 400 points is for Team Epic which is a subset of Epic which is again a subset of X-Wing and not the standard game.

There's never been an officially sanctioned event that I know of that used anything other than 100 points for the standard X-Wing game.

Also FFG has stated that they have no intention of increasing the size of Armada games. Seeing how they've never really increased the size for X-Wing, only added a rules expansion, one which is not even remotely popular, the idea that they made Epic to keep people buying X-Wing ships is quite frankly laughable... The chance of them increasing Armada past 400 is unlikely at best.

Because as far as FFG cares, Tournament = Standard game, but what anyone does outside of official tournaments is up to the people playing.

I don't want 3 hour games 3 to 4 times in a single day for just a tournament. I don't know many who do. So don't buy the beautiful Interdictor or Liberty bit it's your loss. I will have fun with my set and I will let the challenge of building a 400 point list excite me.

Given that it is an economic dilemma in that you have too many choices and not enough points, why do you think there isn't a similar challenge in 500 points?

As for the time people tend to play as to finish, in the years I played Flames of War we ran a variety of points. When you play with few points you end up being much more careful about things as you have fewer to lose, with more points you speed up as each move seems less important individually.

An argument to have against increasing point costs is barrier of entry for competitive events. We already know what the prices are like at 400, now take it up a notch to 500..

I don't want 3 hour games 3 to 4 times in a single day for just a tournament. I don't know many who do. So don't buy the beautiful Interdictor or Liberty bit it's your loss. I will have fun with my set and I will let the challenge of building a 400 point list excite me.

Given that it is an economic dilemma in that you have too many choices and not enough points, why do you think there isn't a similar challenge in 500 points?

As for the time people tend to play as to finish, in the years I played Flames of War we ran a variety of points. When you play with few points you end up being much more careful about things as you have fewer to lose, with more points you speed up as each move seems less important individually.

Sure, you will have that issue at all points levels but the lower points are the bigger the challenge and 400 is what I think is the minimum for a good game.

At 450/500pts, you still would have real difficult choices to make in your fleet make up, and it would not drastically increase game time.

I mean I cannot count the times I have faced a dual ISD + Rhymerball, with motti in tournaments, not like 400pts makes you face super duper special builds.

An argument to have against increasing point costs is barrier of entry for competitive events. We already know what the prices are like at 400, now take it up a notch to 500..

Not quite, going to 500pts could mean a guy who used to run an all ship fleet at 400pts, now takes a 100pts of squadrons alongside his usual build.

Plus when you factor in buying duplicates for upgrade cards, for 400pt tournaments, it means you can find a spot for that ship that was just bought for its cards.

But I use a bunch of squadrons already, and I havn't bought a single ship for its upgrade cards... >.>

An argument to have against increasing point costs is barrier of entry for competitive events. We already know what the prices are like at 400, now take it up a notch to 500..

Not quite, going to 500pts could mean a guy who used to run an all ship fleet at 400pts, now takes a 100pts of squadrons alongside his usual build.

Plus when you factor in buying duplicates for upgrade cards, for 400pt tournaments, it means you can find a spot for that ship that was just bought for its cards.

Lol

No.

My tourney fleet is designed to win, not fit that other ship which I have.....

You know guys....

You can STILL run a 1000 point game and just set a time limit. You might not get past turn 4, but you can ensure that it won't take you 6 hours either! I'm really excited to get a few 1000 point games in. I think it would be a really fun "alternative" way to play. I would also suspect that if they ever release Super Star Destroyers, we might see a higher point cost format, similar to X-Wing's "Epic" format, so getting comfortable with higher cost games might be a good thing.

Possible SSDs now could be:

Executor

Annihilator

Eclipse

Also - imagine if Armada's "Epic" style play was Assymetrical - like the Imperials got a 3 foot long SSD, but the Rebels get instead get a box that has TWO 17 inch-long ships.

I've played a 2300 point game (basically me and another guy all throwing their stuff on the board. It was epic, but only finished after turn 4. We were something like 11 points apart at that time. (But BY GOD ACKBAR WAS GONE.) So the tide was likely to turn.

This is only half the board, I thought I'd added some of the other side:

https://imgur.com/a/3SiVw

An argument to have against increasing point costs is barrier of entry for competitive events. We already know what the prices are like at 400, now take it up a notch to 500..

Not quite, going to 500pts could mean a guy who used to run an all ship fleet at 400pts, now takes a 100pts of squadrons alongside his usual build.

Plus when you factor in buying duplicates for upgrade cards, for 400pt tournaments, it means you can find a spot for that ship that was just bought for its cards.

Lol

No.

My tourney fleet is designed to win, not fit that other ship which I have.....

Way to grasp what was being talked about.

He said it would cost more for new players to get a 500pt fleet for a tournament, I said not really.

An argument to have against increasing point costs is barrier of entry for competitive events. We already know what the prices are like at 400, now take it up a notch to 500..

Not quite, going to 500pts could mean a guy who used to run an all ship fleet at 400pts, now takes a 100pts of squadrons alongside his usual build.

Plus when you factor in buying duplicates for upgrade cards, for 400pt tournaments, it means you can find a spot for that ship that was just bought for its cards.

Sign me up the next time you can get 100 points of squadrons for free.

An argument to have against increasing point costs is barrier of entry for competitive events. We already know what the prices are like at 400, now take it up a notch to 500..

Not quite, going to 500pts could mean a guy who used to run an all ship fleet at 400pts, now takes a 100pts of squadrons alongside his usual build.

Plus when you factor in buying duplicates for upgrade cards, for 400pt tournaments, it means you can find a spot for that ship that was just bought for its cards.

Lol

No.

My tourney fleet is designed to win, not fit that other ship which I have.....

Way to grasp what was being talked about.

He said it would cost more for new players to get a 500pt fleet for a tournament, I said not really.

And you were hilariously wrong...

Got a good grasp on that point

I don't want 3 hour games 3 to 4 times in a single day for just a tournament. I don't know many who do. So don't buy the beautiful Interdictor or Liberty bit it's your loss. I will have fun with my set and I will let the challenge of building a 400 point list excite me.

Given that it is an economic dilemma in that you have too many choices and not enough points, why do you think there isn't a similar challenge in 500 points?

As for the time people tend to play as to finish, in the years I played Flames of War we ran a variety of points. When you play with few points you end up being much more careful about things as you have fewer to lose, with more points you speed up as each move seems less important individually.

Sure, you will have that issue at all points levels but the lower points are the bigger the challenge and 400 is what I think is the minimum for a good game.

At 450/500pts, you still would have real difficult choices to make in your fleet make up, and it would not drastically increase game time.

I mean I cannot count the times I have faced a dual ISD + Rhymerball, with motti in tournaments, not like 400pts makes you face super duper special builds.

Now you have 3 hour tournament games per round in a game where people get mentally fatigued at 6 hours and 45 minutes.

I am happy with the points as it is right now. I like the challenge, and of you are complaining because you are not facing radically different builds then you have forgotten that it is still wave 2.

An argument to have against increasing point costs is barrier of entry for competitive events. We already know what the prices are like at 400, now take it up a notch to 500..

I dunno about you, but I was under the impression that most people bought their own copy of the box set., then they buy ships from both factions to get access to upgrade cards.

I mean I bought a box, my friend bought a box, another friend bought a box, and another bought 2 boxes, so just box sets alone we have 5 between 4 of us, then we all bought at least one of every ship each, and several copies of the squadrons.

But that is 4 people, lets just say there is two of you playing, you should still have more than enough stuff to make a fleet with for a tournament.

You do not need to buy "more" just to get to 500pts.

One of each Imperial ship (inc wave 3/4) comes in at 396pts (taking one of each, and the cheapest version of each.) Rebels comes in at around 425pts, and that is no admiral, an no squadrons, and zero upgrade cards.

So no I am not seeing increasing the points to 450/500pts being a barrier for new entry players, this game is prohibitively expensive for building a tournament build, but if you have bought enough to be able to play competitively at 400pts, you can make 450/500pts at no extra cost.

An argument to have against increasing point costs is barrier of entry for competitive events. We already know what the prices are like at 400, now take it up a notch to 500..

Not quite, going to 500pts could mean a guy who used to run an all ship fleet at 400pts, now takes a 100pts of squadrons alongside his usual build.

Plus when you factor in buying duplicates for upgrade cards, for 400pt tournaments, it means you can find a spot for that ship that was just bought for its cards.

Lol

No.

My tourney fleet is designed to win, not fit that other ship which I have.....

Way to grasp what was being talked about.

He said it would cost more for new players to get a 500pt fleet for a tournament, I said not really.

And you were hilariously wrong...

Got a good grasp on that point

Ah right so your MC30 build, couldn't use another MC30 in it? and not be as effective right?

Hilariously wrong? in the fact that if you have bought enough to play in tournaments at 400pts, that you can make 450/500pt fleets without buying more stuff? OK show me how, and I'll accept I'm hilariously wrong.

The impression I get, is that the game was inherently balanced for 400pts, right from the very start... That upgrades are pointed and costed at the 400pt Mean. Which means Motti costs as much as he does, because there's only ever going to be So many hull points he's given out, and that's a good median for it. The same for all of the Admirals...

Increasing the base point costs throws those internal point calculation values out. Something that is balanced for a 400pt fleet becomes cheap for a 500pt fleet... But those upgrades which are not inherently fleet wide, but are based for individual ships, become more expensive as a relative matter, as their competitor - fleet wide or spaced upgrades - become cheaper...

...

basically, the game was designed to be 400... 180 and 300 were Stopgaps to get people playing, but not neccessarily playing well...

400 is what the game is designed to do. Without re-releasing a set of cards for everything, or having a major errata on every upgrade at operates in a bubble or wider effect, then the points would be skewed, once it was changed.

That's my opinion, anyway.

To be said, its not a great amount of difference for people who are just playing for fun or casual or in a campaign - there's enough factors there to be thrown around and up and down and doing the goddman hokey-pokey...

But in a tournament, I expect there to be fair conditions for everyone involved. Skewing with the points for global and bubble effects is one way to make tournaments either less fair, or samey in fleet builds, as the ones who do better - have the greater benefit from fleet size - are used more often.

Mess with your games at home all you want.

But unless you expect FFG to do a whole whack of Card Reprints, you're more likely to see a Demolisher Reprint before any of that.

An argument to have against increasing point costs is barrier of entry for competitive events. We already know what the prices are like at 400, now take it up a notch to 500..

I dunno about you, but I was under the impression that most people bought their own copy of the box set., then they buy ships from both factions to get access to upgrade cards.

I mean I bought a box, my friend bought a box, another friend bought a box, and another bought 2 boxes, so just box sets alone we have 5 between 4 of us, then we all bought at least one of every ship each, and several copies of the squadrons.

But that is 4 people, lets just say there is two of you playing, you should still have more than enough stuff to make a fleet with for a tournament.

You do not need to buy "more" just to get to 500pts.

One of each Imperial ship (inc wave 3/4) comes in at 396pts (taking one of each, and the cheapest version of each.) Rebels comes in at around 425pts, and that is no admiral, an no squadrons, and zero upgrade cards.

So no I am not seeing increasing the points to 450/500pts being a barrier for new entry players, this game is prohibitively expensive for building a tournament build, but if you have bought enough to be able to play competitively at 400pts, you can make 450/500pts at no extra cost.

You are telling people that they need 10 packs of Rogues and Villains or can play with 10 packs, they can play with 9x TRC90's which mind you is $50 per ship since you need the TRC's. My DtO increases dramatically in price. It is exponential.

If you want to play 500 point casual games, absolutely no is going to stop you. Tournaments are fine at 400