I like the 450 idea. My only real concern in going too high on the limit is I believe the fighter spam potential becomes too great. It takes about 100pts of rebel fighters to reliably take down a capital ship, while being able to defend itself from interception, and still needing some ship based fire support, in my experience. Often times that number will get you a second ship kill as well as long as you have some dedicated carriers giving lots of orders. So my worry is when you get so many fighters that you just drown a ship out with them. An extra 70 points of them would do that when supported by another 130 of ship. But the extra fifty points intrigues me. That gets you to a sensible sounding third of fleet 150pts in fighters. And enough room to squeeze in just one more small ship.

420 or 450 points wouldnt break the game and frankly I could see FFG upping it to that as more and more ships hit the meta, after all, from a business perspective the more ships people can theoretically fit in a competition fleet the more ships they will theoretically buy.

The people who don't play competitively will play whatever points they want anyway. The question is what proportion of sales are driven by competitive players? In my area I have to think its a rather small proportion as the number of local competitive players wouldn't even justify the stocking levels I see in stores for Armada.

Its another bit of skew information.

FFG has readily stated that their Competition Criteria is always open for all, with their OP system, so as far as they, as a business, is concerned, until this Campaign system hits, every sale they had was a Competitive player sale, as there was no line drawn between them.

Its another bit of skew information.

FFG has readily stated that their Competition Criteria is always open for all, with their OP system, so as far as they, as a business, is concerned, until this Campaign system hits, every sale they had was a Competitive player sale, as there was no line drawn between them.

That's a nice theoretical thought.

OP is FFGs official marketing strategy. But in point of fact and in actual real-world application there is a clear distinction between types of players and therefore types of customer and I doubt a company as savvy at dragging every dollar they can out their customer base would leave that fact out of their modelling.

Would FFG throw a party if *every* person they sold Armada to was a comp player? Probably! It's the best, easiest, most cost-effective way to keep a community engaged. How many in a given area (proportionally) actually ARE competitive players? Only FFG or the distributors might know that,

In fact I would argue that the development and release of the CC Campaign is a tacit acknowledgement by FFG that a large portion of their Armada player base is non-OP competitive and the whole thing is a second prong in a 2 prong strategy of OP and Non-OP play. They want OP players to buy into campaign (making sure of that by including probably crucial OP upgrades, squads and objectives) and they KNOW non OP player base that bought some Armada and sat it on the shelf and never played a tournament will eagerly pull it off the shelf to play a campaign and buy more stuff and maybe act as a feeder system into OP.

I don't disagree at all, but given the distinct choice between marketing to the competitive player, and marketing to the casual player, when there is a distinction to be made, they will market the competitive. Because the competitive player wants and needs more. They need better. The need most.

The casual player, is casual. They buy when they buy. Shiny Hotness means little.

Cater to those who have Shiny Thing Syndrome, in the end

"Since we've got 2 more waves on their way to our local stores, I think it's right about time for the standard game point cap to bump up to 600 points!!! "

I wanted to make sure I understood this before saying something.

Maybe FFG was wrong to have 3 different point amounts over first months of the game coming out, because it brings up people want to have a changing scale for each new wave. I don't think its smart or wise to change to anything more then 400 points for standard play, this might be not pop but hear me out.

First we would need to increase the time of each game then, at a 600 point game your going to be pushing 2 hours per match, and that's not exciting.

Second there is a money factor into the idea also. If you telling me that I need 200 more points that means I need to buy a lot more stuff to game at any tory level. I know that sounds first worlds boohoo, right now I am only doing 1 of each exp when they come out as that's all I can offer for Armada. If I need to go buy the ships to make it to 600 that's a problem on my current budget as the sole income provider making 43K a year, its not much. (yes I know I should get a new job which I am working towards)

Third will there be an increase in points every 2 or 3 waves? Going forward will that trend? Will we be playing 3-4 hour games at tornys per round? Its hard enough to get 90 minutes in with the ships we have vs pushing it to 2 hours for 600 points unless no one wants to finish a game. (My play style would be to take 11 raiders and a bunch of squads. We would not finish a 3rd round in 90 minutes at 600 points)

I think 400 is a sweet spot, its hard to build good lists with so much but that's a huge part of enjoyment for this, the Qual over Quant. I know that might be un pop but that's how I feel.

I'd be happy to see it go to 450-500pts.

At 500pts, you get an extra 33pts for squadrons, if you think adding 1-4 squadrons is going to drastically increase play time....I don't even.

Game would play out at roughly the speed it does now, yes more things are there to be activated, but there is also more damage being tossed around, so things will die faster, it will even it out.

All I'm saying is, if they did it once before, they can do it again

Of course.

But they said they wouldn't, so its entirely possible they wouldn't, either.

Also - imagine if Armada's "Epic" style play was Assymetrical - like the Imperials got a 3 foot long SSD, but the Rebels get instead get a box that has TWO 17 inch-long ships.

Super-sized Flotillas! The only way to make a Super Star Destroyer announcement disappointing!

Armada's strength, as has been said right from day 1, is that it isnt an "Armada" game. It is a "Task force" game.

That means that conflicts work best, both game mechanics, and narratively, when you are facing around 400 points of forces.

Of course you can homebrew as much as you like - heck I developed and played 500 point X-Wing games with my mate, but for tournaments you need to have games that are big enough to be fun and have some strategy, but small enough to get 4 games in a day. I really believe that 400 points is that sweet spot. So you cant run your 4 ISD list in a tournament, well, too bad sorry, but that actually wouldnt be fun to play against, and when players stop having fun because someone has more cash to buy a steamroller combo with more expensive forces (like 40K), people stop playing, and the game starts to die.

So, for the health of the tournament scene, which is important to keep the game developing and growing, I would say no thanks . Play what you want at home, but like others have said, the ships and abilities and commanders are all weighted based on 400 points, mess with that and you screw the whole game.

400p is perfect. In fact, with a player is strong in squadrons, the match can be long enough.

I get why 400 is the format, but I also really want to play with everything. A 400 point list with an Imp Star Deuce, demolisher, a raider and some squadrons (or a fourth ship and different ships, etc...) doesn't feel like an "armada" to me. I get that "Star Wars: Patrol Group" doesn't really sound epic enough, and the game can get a little long. That being said, I love the idea of 500 points, 100 for squadrons, or maybe do something like warmachine/hordes does with jack/beast points, and give you X points for squadrons for each point of squadron value in your fleet? Maybe 15? It would probably need some kind of hard cap, since you can fit 22 GR-75 flotillas in 400 points...giving you 660 points on squadrons...

...yeah, maybe not. Never mind. 500 points it is!

Tournaments, No! Fun with the friends? Hell yeah!

When you have timed rounds and a limited player base having bigger than 400 becomes really hard. And for new players more than 400 points would be hard.

People keep saying "more squadrons = longer games!!"

Really, you think 1-4 more squadrons(500pts, sees you get 33pts more for squadrons) is going to make the game last another hour or so do you?

I've played plenty of 600pt games and they last about as long, or just marginally longer than a 400pt game. The reason being, MOAR DICE!

Yes you have more things to activate, but you have more dice to throw, this is a balancing act, takes more time to move everything than 400pts, but stuff dies much faster than a 400pts game.

This game is eminently playable at 400-500-600pts, I have yet to experience this mythical "bog down" people keep repeating.

Also this is a capital ship game, a FLEET game, if they do not increase the points cap, we are going to dead end on buying, because I am not continuing to buy ships, when I have a massive limitation on how many of them I can actually use to play the game with, and that is not even including the duplicates you have to buy for upgrade cards. ( Yes if you want to play in Armada tournaments, duplicates are needed.)

Also this is a capital ship game, a FLEET game, if they do not increase the points cap, we are going to dead end on buying, because I am not continuing to buy ships, when I have a massive limitation on how many of them I can actually use to play the game with, and that is not even including the duplicates you have to buy for upgrade cards. ( Yes if you want to play in Armada tournaments, duplicates are needed.)

You are right, if they do not increase the point cap, people will stop buying more ship. Just look what happened to X-Wing, the game certainly died in wave 3 because they never raised the tournament point cap over 100 points...

I think the intention was to make it a 400 pts game from the start, but they were realistic and knew it would not be feasable with just one wave. So they created the demo format (180 pts) that you use when you only have the Core Set. Then, once Wave 1 finally came out, they raised it to 300 pts. And as soon as the big ship came out in Wave 2, they could finally raise it to 400 pts.

The great thing about 400 pts, no matter how many ships and squadrons you have available, is that it force you to make though choice, you can't take everything. Just like in X-Wing, you now have 12-13 different type of fighter per faction and realistically speaking, you can't really take more than 4-5 different type per team. What it brings (excluding the players that only netlist) is variety, you can architect a fleet to your style of play.

It's also worth noting that just like now some people would like the point cap to raise to 450-600 pts for Armada, from the beginning there was also some players that thought that X-Wing point cap should be raised to 150 pts. Never happened there, I don't see it happening here. They gradually raised it to 400 pts only because there was not enough ship out at first to start with 400 pts from the beginining, not because they intended to raise it with each new wave.

But then again, 400 pts is the official tournament point cap, but there is absolutely nothing preventing people to organise their own tournament with a higher or lower point cap. If you prefer it this way, and think that it would still run smoothly, then why limit yourself to 400?

Also this is a capital ship game, a FLEET game, if they do not increase the points cap, we are going to dead end on buying, because I am not continuing to buy ships, when I have a massive limitation on how many of them I can actually use to play the game with, and that is not even including the duplicates you have to buy for upgrade cards. ( Yes if you want to play in Armada tournaments, duplicates are needed.)

It's also worth noting that just like now some people would like the point cap to raise to 450-600 pts for Armada, from the beginning there was also some players that thought that X-Wing point cap should be raised to 150 pts. Never happened there, I don't see it happening here. They gradually raised it to 400 pts only because there was not enough ship out at first to start with 400 pts from the beginining, not because they intended to raise it with each new wave.

Don't X-Wing have a 300 point game?

Also this is a capital ship game, a FLEET game, if they do not increase the points cap, we are going to dead end on buying, because I am not continuing to buy ships, when I have a massive limitation on how many of them I can actually use to play the game with, and that is not even including the duplicates you have to buy for upgrade cards. ( Yes if you want to play in Armada tournaments, duplicates are needed.)

It's also worth noting that just like now some people would like the point cap to raise to 450-600 pts for Armada, from the beginning there was also some players that thought that X-Wing point cap should be raised to 150 pts. Never happened there, I don't see it happening here. They gradually raised it to 400 pts only because there was not enough ship out at first to start with 400 pts from the beginining, not because they intended to raise it with each new wave.

Don't X-Wing have a 300 point game?

It's a different mode: Epic and was mainly meant to intoduce Epic ships that doen't maneuvrate like your standard Star Fighter and cost a lot more to field. The official X-Wing tournaments (Store Championship, Regionals, Nationals, Worlds) stayed at 100 pts.

I could see them create a Epic mode for Armada, but just like Epic in X-Wing, I don't see it replacing the 400 point game for tournament plays.

.....will also lead to use wanting to have 12 activations per army!

Ahem...we are playing with ships, so I believe the correct term would be Navy

FYI: Its only footsluggers that call any armed force for an Army

Fleet or Flotilla - the Navy would be all of it

Also this is a capital ship game, a FLEET game, if they do not increase the points cap, we are going to dead end on buying, because I am not continuing to buy ships, when I have a massive limitation on how many of them I can actually use to play the game with, and that is not even including the duplicates you have to buy for upgrade cards. ( Yes if you want to play in Armada tournaments, duplicates are needed.)

It's also worth noting that just like now some people would like the point cap to raise to 450-600 pts for Armada, from the beginning there was also some players that thought that X-Wing point cap should be raised to 150 pts. Never happened there, I don't see it happening here. They gradually raised it to 400 pts only because there was not enough ship out at first to start with 400 pts from the beginining, not because they intended to raise it with each new wave.

Don't X-Wing have a 300 point game?

It's a different mode: Epic and was mainly meant to intoduce Epic ships that doen't maneuvrate like your standard Star Fighter and cost a lot more to field. The official X-Wing tournaments (Store Championship, Regionals, Nationals, Worlds) stayed at 100 pts.

I could see them create a Epic mode for Armada, but just like Epic in X-Wing, I don't see it replacing the 400 point game for tournament plays.

So Epic X-Wing is not X-Wing, they are different games then?

Played a 534pts game yesterday, we began at 13:30 and was finished packing away out stuff into our bags about 16:40. so say 3 hours and 15 minutes.

The game ended in the 5th round as my last Corvette was blown away, and all what my remaining squadrons could do was blow away a YT1300.

So playing with more points has its reward in a longer casual, non-tourny, entertaining play. We played quite agressive against each other as the first casualty happened in the 2nd round and things naturally excalated quickly after that, but if we had played more cautious, the game would obviously have dragged on longer, as there was up to 15 squadrons in total on the board.

So again, tourny games should be no more than 450pts, as the couple of games I have played with that max cap, didn't feel at all different from a 400pts game. But if you go beyond 450pts then it should only be casual games or games as part of an Campaign

FYI: We used proxy Fighter Coordination teams, Flight Commander and Spinal armament. The Former two was a real good combo, especially the FCT worked better than expected. The SA was very and deadly good combo with Salvation.

Also this is a capital ship game, a FLEET game, if they do not increase the points cap, we are going to dead end on buying, because I am not continuing to buy ships, when I have a massive limitation on how many of them I can actually use to play the game with, and that is not even including the duplicates you have to buy for upgrade cards. ( Yes if you want to play in Armada tournaments, duplicates are needed.)

It's also worth noting that just like now some people would like the point cap to raise to 450-600 pts for Armada, from the beginning there was also some players that thought that X-Wing point cap should be raised to 150 pts. Never happened there, I don't see it happening here. They gradually raised it to 400 pts only because there was not enough ship out at first to start with 400 pts from the beginining, not because they intended to raise it with each new wave.

Don't X-Wing have a 300 point game?

It's a different mode: Epic and was mainly meant to intoduce Epic ships that doen't maneuvrate like your standard Star Fighter and cost a lot more to field. The official X-Wing tournaments (Store Championship, Regionals, Nationals, Worlds) stayed at 100 pts.

I could see them create a Epic mode for Armada, but just like Epic in X-Wing, I don't see it replacing the 400 point game for tournament plays.

So Epic X-Wing is not X-Wing, they are different games then?

Epic is not the standard X-Wing game, it stayed at 100 pts for tournaments. The OP specifically mentionned bumping the standard Armada game point cap from 400 to 600 pts, not creating a second bigger mode. He asked if tourney should stay at 400 pts. X-Wing tournaments stayed at 100 pts, even though they created a secondary Epic mode that can be played at 300 or 400 pts (team version).

Epic X-Wing is X-Wing, but not it's not the standard game. The standard game stayed at 100 pts. I don't consider it the same thing, but if you feel like it, feel free to think that Epic was the developper bumping the standard game to 300 pts.

Also this is a capital ship game, a FLEET game, if they do not increase the points cap, we are going to dead end on buying, because I am not continuing to buy ships, when I have a massive limitation on how many of them I can actually use to play the game with, and that is not even including the duplicates you have to buy for upgrade cards. ( Yes if you want to play in Armada tournaments, duplicates are needed.)

It's also worth noting that just like now some people would like the point cap to raise to 450-600 pts for Armada, from the beginning there was also some players that thought that X-Wing point cap should be raised to 150 pts. Never happened there, I don't see it happening here. They gradually raised it to 400 pts only because there was not enough ship out at first to start with 400 pts from the beginining, not because they intended to raise it with each new wave.

Don't X-Wing have a 300 point game?

It's a different mode: Epic and was mainly meant to intoduce Epic ships that doen't maneuvrate like your standard Star Fighter and cost a lot more to field. The official X-Wing tournaments (Store Championship, Regionals, Nationals, Worlds) stayed at 100 pts.

I could see them create a Epic mode for Armada, but just like Epic in X-Wing, I don't see it replacing the 400 point game for tournament plays.

So Epic X-Wing is not X-Wing, they are different games then?

Epic is not the standard X-Wing game, it stayed at 100 pts for tournaments. The OP specifically mentionned bumping the standard Armada game point cap from 400 to 600 pts, not creating a second bigger mode. He asked if tourney should stay at 400 pts. X-Wing tournaments stayed at 100 pts, even though they created a secondary Epic mode that can be played at 300 or 400 pts (team version).

Epic X-Wing is X-Wing, but not it's not the standard game. The standard game stayed at 100 pts. I don't consider it the same thing, but if you feel like it, feel free to think that Epic was the developper bumping the standard game to 300 pts.

So a player that wanted to play more points in X-Wing could?

Also this is a capital ship game, a FLEET game, if they do not increase the points cap, we are going to dead end on buying, because I am not continuing to buy ships, when I have a massive limitation on how many of them I can actually use to play the game with, and that is not even including the duplicates you have to buy for upgrade cards. ( Yes if you want to play in Armada tournaments, duplicates are needed.)

It's also worth noting that just like now some people would like the point cap to raise to 450-600 pts for Armada, from the beginning there was also some players that thought that X-Wing point cap should be raised to 150 pts. Never happened there, I don't see it happening here. They gradually raised it to 400 pts only because there was not enough ship out at first to start with 400 pts from the beginining, not because they intended to raise it with each new wave.

Don't X-Wing have a 300 point game?

It's a different mode: Epic and was mainly meant to intoduce Epic ships that doen't maneuvrate like your standard Star Fighter and cost a lot more to field. The official X-Wing tournaments (Store Championship, Regionals, Nationals, Worlds) stayed at 100 pts.

I could see them create a Epic mode for Armada, but just like Epic in X-Wing, I don't see it replacing the 400 point game for tournament plays.

So Epic X-Wing is not X-Wing, they are different games then?

Epic is not the standard X-Wing game, it stayed at 100 pts for tournaments. The OP specifically mentionned bumping the standard Armada game point cap from 400 to 600 pts, not creating a second bigger mode. He asked if tourney should stay at 400 pts. X-Wing tournaments stayed at 100 pts, even though they created a secondary Epic mode that can be played at 300 or 400 pts (team version).

Epic X-Wing is X-Wing, but not it's not the standard game. The standard game stayed at 100 pts. I don't consider it the same thing, but if you feel like it, feel free to think that Epic was the developper bumping the standard game to 300 pts.

So a player that wanted to play more points in X-Wing could?

Never said that he could not, just that it's not the standard format.

But at this point you're just being obnoxious so there is no point to continue this discussion. Good day to you.

FFG officially sanctioned 400pt games of X-wing, no?

That means the standard game is 400pts, but tournaments are kept to 100pts, or do you perhaps think more people play tournaments than play the game with friends?

They can officially sanction 450-500-600pts for Armada, keep it at 400 for tournaments, or change that as well.

But my point stands, to keep people buying stuff they officially increased the points cap, and boy did they increase the points cap, 100----->400.